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Default Steam - Arcania & Gothic Pack for 75% Off

December 13th, 2013, 17:07
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Yep, the Gothic series ranks right up there with Baldur's Gate, TES, VtM-B, Planescape, Fallout, and The Witcher games as the worst RPGs I've ever played. Complete crap.
The Gothic series shouldn't even be mentioned in the company of those other classics. I don't know what logic you are trying to use by comparing Gothic to those other quality games of yesterday. Gothic is crap.
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December 13th, 2013, 17:12
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
$12.50 seems like too much money for Arcania and for an untouchable version of G3. I alreadly have G2 gold and G1 and G3. Now if it were $5, I'd probably hoard all these as digital Steam copies, and still never play Arcania.
More proof that people buy these crap bundles just because they go on sale, not because they have any intention of ever playing them.
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December 13th, 2013, 19:09
I know I shouldn't feed the trolls but by any type of reviewing system used, Gothic 1 and Gothic 2 have received very high marks. Just google Metacritic and they have an average of 8.1 -8.3. Classic games. When Gothic 1 came out there was absolutely nothing like it. Gritty, immersive, choices that mattered with great NPC characters.The games you mentioned are all pause or turn-based so if that"s the standard you are using to rate roleplaying games then I guess Gothic doesn't fit in.
Gothic 3 got some mediocre scores at release but this thread is mostly about how good it is patched.

Its all about choice however and you are welcome to your opinion but its only that.
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December 14th, 2013, 04:16
Originally Posted by jpnole View Post
The Gothic series shouldn't even be mentioned in the company of those other classics. I don't know what logic you are trying to use by comparing Gothic to those other quality games of yesterday. Gothic is crap.
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December 14th, 2013, 05:51
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
As long as you forget all about it having anything to do with Gothic, it's not that bad. It's an average action RPG all-round.
Gothic's been pretty crap since Gothic II, hasn't it? The original Gothic was the only one I ever liked. I had to force myself to get through Gothic II. Gothic III, I lost interest in after a few hours. Franchise started out pretty iffy and went down hill from there.
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December 14th, 2013, 05:59
Originally Posted by redman5427 View Post
I know I shouldn't feed the trolls but by any type of reviewing system used, Gothic 1 and Gothic 2 have received very high marks. Just google Metacritic and they have an average of 8.1 -8.3. Classic games.
Metacritic didn't even exist when Gothic came out, and even if that weren't so, Gothic always had an aggressively opinionated cult following. I've had run ins with some of the creeps here over that POS, Risen. Metacritic ratings and three dollars will buy a cup of coffee.

Originally Posted by redman5427 View Post
When Gothic 1 came out there was absolutely nothing like it. Gritty, immersive, choices that mattered with great NPC characters.
Actually, there was something like it. Something called Morrowind, which Gothic was a direct take-off of. It did have some features that Morrowind didn't have, but was it a better game? game players don't think so.

Originally Posted by redman5427 View Post
Its all about choice however and you are welcome to your opinion but its only that.
As is yours. As long as you don't start throwing around terms like "Classic game" for a title that was not and is not.
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December 14th, 2013, 06:49
Originally Posted by CraigCWB View Post
Actually, there was something like it. Something called Morrowind, which Gothic was a direct take-off of. It did have some features that Morrowind didn't have, but was it a better game? game players don't think so.
Cool… except that Gothic was released more than a year prior to Morrowind.



Originally Posted by CraigCWB View Post
As is yours. As long as you don't start throwing around terms like "Classic game" for a title that was not and is not.
Because you say it's not? Well I'm glad you cleared that up for us.
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December 14th, 2013, 06:59
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Cool… except that Gothic was released more than a year prior to Morrowind.
Cool, except it was released less than 6 months before Morrowind. In any case, semantics aside, the claim was made there was nothing else like it. That claim remains a wrong one.

Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Because you say it's not? Well I'm glad you cleared that up for us.
No, because the industry says it is not. A few loudmouths can stink up any special interest group with their idiot opinions but reality remains unaltered, nonetheless
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December 14th, 2013, 07:14
Originally Posted by CraigCWB View Post
Cool, except it was released less than 6 months before Morrowind. In any case, semantics aside, the claim was made there was nothing else like it. That claim remains a wrong one.
You already made yourself look foolish with your original comment, and now you're wrong again. Gothic was released in March 01' and Morrowind was released in May 02'.

That's really beside the point anyways though. redman commented that "when it came out" there was nothing like it, and he's correct.


Originally Posted by CraigCWB View Post
No, because the industry says it is not. A few loudmouths can stink up any special interest group with their idiot opinions but reality remains unaltered, nonetheless
Ah so the industry said that eh? Maybe you can point that out when you get the chance. I'd like to read that one
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December 14th, 2013, 07:32
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
You already made yourself look foolish with your original comment, and now you're wrong again. Gothic was released in March 01' and Morrowind was released in May 02'.
You're the one who made himself look foolish by resorting to semantics. And this is two times you've gotten your own semantic argument wrong: Gothic was released in North America late November 2001. Morrowind was released in North America in early May of 2002. Less than 6 months, as I said. I predict your next comment will claim that a release date in Germany counts, but it's pretty sad when you have to go from semantic correctness to comparing apples to oranges in the same comment. Isn't it? Especially when your whole line of argument is irrelevant.

Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
That's really beside the point anyways though. redman commented that "when it came out" there was nothing like it, and he's correct.
No, he's not correct. Morrowind and Gothic competed directly with eachother at the same time and with the same gamers. On the same store shelves. Right next to eachother.

Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Ah so the industry said that eh? Maybe you can point that out when you get the chance. I'd like to read that one
Yeah, because we all know the great GOTHIC games are considered classic, don't we? And we all know that even back then, GOTHIC blew Morrowind out of the water when it comes to sales and the opinions of gamers and critics, right?

Dude, were you even gaming back then? It's obtuse on its face to suggest a game like Gothic, which most gamers never even heard of at the time, was in any way comparable to Morrowind or the many other hit titles that came out in the late 1990s and early 2000s. Pathetic. Revisionist history at its worst. And for what? To burnish the non-existent reputation of some developers who robbed me twice? Once with Gothic III and again with Risen? I want my damn money back! And if I can't get it, which I can't, the least I can do is tell you to STFU with your fanboy misinformation.
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December 14th, 2013, 07:43
Originally Posted by CraigCWB View Post
You're the one who made himself look foolish by resorting to semantics. And this is two times you've gotten your own semantic argument wrong: Gothic was released in North America late November 2001. Morrowind was released in North America in early May of 2002. Less than 6 months, as I said. I predict your next comment will claim that a release date in Germany counts, but it's pretty sad when you have to go from semantic correctness to comparing apples to oranges in the same comment. Isn't it? Especially when your whole line of argument is irrelevant.
How predictable… Are you really going to pretend that Gothic only existed once it reached the US? I guess I saw that one coming though…

There's nothing semantic about pointing out release dates. I stated facts, and now you're backpeddling and resorting to personal insults.


Originally Posted by CraigCWB View Post
Morrowind and Gothic competed directly with eachother at the same time and with the same gamers. On the same store shelves. Right next to eachother.
Yes they did… more than a year after Gothic was originally released.


Originally Posted by CraigCWB View Post
Yeah, because we all know the great GOTHIC games are considered classic, don't we? And we all know that even back then, GOTHIC blew Morrowind out of the water when it comes to sales and the opinions of gamers and critics, right?

Dude, were you even gaming back then? It's obtuse on its face to suggest a game like Gothic, which most gamers never even heard of at the time, was in any way comparable to Morrowind or the many other hit titles that came out in the late 1990s and early 2000s. Pathetic. Revisionist history at its worst. And for what? To burnish the non-existent reputation of some developers who robbed me twice? Once with Gothic III and again with Risen? I want my damn money back! And if I can't get it, which I can't, the least I can do is tell you to STFU with your fanboy misinformation.
Aww… is somebody getting angry now? I actually feel embarrassed for you.
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December 14th, 2013, 08:02
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
How predictable… Are you really going to pretend that Gothic only existed once it reached the US?
Yes, in fact I did predict that you'd claim a release date in Germany was comparable to a release date in North America, when it comes to the North American market…

Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
There's nothing semantic about pointing out release dates.
It's semantic that you think specific release dates define predominant market conditions over a period of time where the two products completely overlapped. Especially considering it was Morrowind's success that fueled interest in Gothic. It's downright anal retentive to claim a release date in Germany, in German, has some bearing on the English-speaking gaming community. Which is what we're talking about here. Isn't it?

Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
I stated facts, and now you're backpeddling and resorting to personal insults.
You stated irrelevant facts, and you used them out of context. And you've repeatedly claimed that amounts to an "I-win" button for you, even though you haven't even taken up the argument, at all. As for personal insults, you went there first when you accused me of making a fool of myself. Or did you somehow think that was not insulting?

Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Aww… is somebody getting angry now? I actually feel embarrassed for you.
Anger is what you wanted, isn't it? That doesn't change the fact you knew you lost this argument before you even started commenting at me, which is why you came at me from out of left field and tried to change the discussion into an argument over release dates instead of an argument over market success and influence. Isn't it?
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December 14th, 2013, 08:21
And by the way, JDR13, if we're arguing specific release dates, this is what I initially replied to:

When Gothic 1 came out there was absolutely nothing like it. Gritty, immersive, choices that mattered with great NPC characters.

Morrowind was out the same time as Gothic, but Ultima Underworld came out a decade before Gothic did. So did System Shock. And so did the first Elder Scrolls game, Arena. All beat Gothic by a decade. And the second Elder Scrolls game, Daggerfall, came out 5 years before Gothic. I suppose since it's the dates that matter and not the market conditions at the time the games were considered current, then you still lose. Don't you?
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December 14th, 2013, 08:37
I remember playing Morrowind after Gothic 1.

It was such a disappointment at first. The world felt stale and dry in comparison to Gothic. The atmosphere was a bit subpar. The physicality (for a game trying to at least be part action) and combat was not really there and the world/npc/quest design felt a bit bland and generic in comparison…

Thankfully I stuck to it, added a few enhancing mods and discovered the joy of a huge sandbox open world game. The first to do the genre justice after the lackluster Daggerfall
(which I have put to many hours of my life in ).

In the end they are two quite a bit different games and they play on different strengths.
I love them both but I quite like Gothic 1 more. I find the combination of sandbox gameplay freedom and nonlinearity with a good story excellent setting/atmosphere and interesting quests/npcs to be quite unique even for today and it was an eyeopener for its time. It practically brought me back to gaming singlehandedly because after a period of relative RPG drought I was starting to lose interest bit (RPG gaming since the pre-ishar era in addition to my PNP years). It showed me that there was a new type of action RPG that could leverage new tech and could be very immersive and enjoyable to me…

Heh, I remember one week I was saying to my buddy how I am fed up with paying for computer hardware to play the crap that comes out and the next one I was looking to scrounge enough money to get a decent card to play G1 on (and I definitely needed that for Morrowind a year or so later ). I owe them guys that too. I played a lot of good and decent (and a couple great ) games the last couple of decades. And maybe the Kickstarter batch we are all waiting for will produce games of the sensibilities and caliber of the ones I grew up with as well

Oh, Gothic 2 + NOTR I have to admit is probably a better game than Gothic 1. I just found the atmosphere and setting of Gothic 1 to be unique and so personal tilt value puts them on about equal footing…

Thats all for my 2c

P.S This strangely popped into my mind a while ago. Couldn't help myself, nostalgia and all
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December 14th, 2013, 08:49
Originally Posted by JonNik View Post
P.S This strangely popped into my mind a while ago. Couldn't help myself, nostalgia and all
Heh heh… I kept thinking of this little fellow…

loading…


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December 14th, 2013, 08:54
G1 and G2 were fantastic games. They had a purposeful hand crafted vibe to them and there was real meaning to exploring the world. Choices had irreversible consequences and it was entirely likely that frequently you'd wonder into a part of the world where you'd get "one-shotted." Before there was Dark Souls, G1 and G2 were known as being 'hard.' Conversations made you think, and if you didn't the choices were many times counterintuitive. Likewise, quests were the same many times vague in their description and/or purpose with multiple ways to solve them. The story lines of each game were more than respectable and many of the characters in the game are well done and endearing.

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December 14th, 2013, 08:57
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Heh heh… I kept thinking of this little fellow…
After catching up on this thread and reading all the nasty posts this came to mind for me…

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December 14th, 2013, 09:20
Originally Posted by TheMadGamer View Post
G1 and G2 were fantastic games. They had a purposeful hand crafted vibe to them and there was real meaning to exploring the world. Choices had irreversible consequences and it was entirely likely that frequently you'd wonder into a part of the world where you'd get "one-shotted." Before there was Dark Souls, G1 and G2 were known as being 'hard.' Conversations made you think, and if you didn't the choices were many times counterintuitive. Likewise, quests were the same many times vague in their description and/or purpose with multiple ways to solve them. The story lines of each game were more than respectable and many of the characters in the game are well done and endearing.
That is a very good way of summing up some of the things I liked too

Actually I don't consider DS all that much more difficult than The Gothics. It is its more cryptic nature, level respawning and unforgiving balance that puts it a bit beyond.

For someone that replays the Gothics on a semi regular basis, the combat was like returning home . It is just that gamers these days are a bit spoiled by all the handholding and pandering to make them feel awesome and kickass
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December 14th, 2013, 10:01
Originally Posted by JonNik View Post
I remember playing Morrowind after Gothic 1. It was such a disappointment at first. The world felt stale and dry in comparison to Gothic. The atmosphere was a bit subpar.
I'm not a fan of Morrowind. I spent a lot of time complaining on usenet about how dull and lifeless it seemed. That's when somebody mentioned Gothic and I played that. I liked Gothic better, as well. However, people who didn't like Morrowind were heretics back then, and I only recall a few people saying they liked Gothic better. I could be wrong, but I have the distinct impression that most RPG gamers back then didn't even play Gothic. My recollection is there were about a hundred comments about Morrowind for every one comment about Gothic.

Originally Posted by JonNik View Post
In the end they are two quite a bit different games and they play on different strengths. I love them both but I quite like Gothic 1 more. I find the combination of sandbox gameplay freedom and nonlinearity with a good story excellent setting/atmosphere and interesting quests/npcs to be quite unique even for today and it was an eyeopener for its time.
I don't love either one, though I did enjoy Gothic more. I feel like you're glossing over some of the problems that kept Gothic from being the classic game some here claim it to be. The user interface was complete garbage, for instance. To this day I remember it as the worst user interface I've ever encountered in an RPG. That's not a small thing. People care about that. Another thing that matters to RPG gamers is equipment. In Gothic, there were only a few outfits you could obtain throughout the course of the game. And they were one-piece outfits, not the various items people were used to obtaining and equipping on their characters. Additionally, most (all?) were obtained via faction story line and awarded to the player, rather than being looted or bought. People care about that, too. Virtually every RPG on the market at the time did these things better. Morrowind, much better. Also, you say Gothic is sandboxy, but it's really not, is it? Areas only respawn between chapters, if at all, some areas are linear and others control access, interactions with NPCs are usually few and strictly limited, and so on. The Sandbox was the only thing I liked about Morrowind, and Gothic didn't have it. Nor did it have the party based system of other popular RPGs at the time. It also didn't have the great story of some other RPGs at the time, despite what some people here say. And I recall a lot of people crowing about how Gothic had voice acting for all dialog, whereas other games including Morrowind did not. Well, that may be true, but the voice acting was horrible. Bad enough to put people off. It put me off. And they only managed to have 100% voice acting for all dialog because there wasn't very much dialog. And that's actually because there wasn't much story. It was really a fantasy combat simulator, wasn't it? In any case, the combat is the one thing that Gothic did better than other action-y first person RPGs of that time period. But without getting past the criminally bad user interface, people would never know about that.

Originally Posted by JonNik View Post
It practically brought me back to gaming singlehandedly because after a period of relative RPG drought I was starting to lose interest bit (RPG gaming since the pre-ishar era in addition to my PNP years). It showed me that there was a new type of action RPG that could leverage new tech and could be very immersive and enjoyable to me…
I envy you. Neither Morrowind nor Gothic revitalized my interest in RPGs. The last batch of truly great RPGs, for me, was the late 1990s. Fallouts, the last good M&M, all the Baldur's Gate spawned infinity engine games, even Diablo II. Oddly enough, the only RPGs I can even play of late are the sandbox games Bethesda makes, even though I disliked them pretty intensely prior to Oblivion. The Total War series makes for a better roleplaying experience than most games that have styled themselves as RPGs, the last decade or more. Same with GTA and Saints Row. I wish that I could find some RPGs that let me have the same kind of RPG experience I had in Saints Row 2. Not gonna happen. Not unless some of these kickstarter projects deliver something spectacular.
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December 14th, 2013, 10:27
Originally Posted by CraigCWB View Post
I don't love either one, though I did enjoy Gothic more. I feel like you're glossing over some of the problems that kept Gothic from being the classic game some here claim it to be. The user interface was complete garbage, for instance. To this day I remember it as the worst user interface I've ever encountered in an RPG. That's not a small thing. People care about that. Another thing that matters to RPG gamers is equipment. In Gothic, there were only a few outfits you could obtain throughout the course of the game. And they were one-piece outfits, not the various items people were used to obtaining and equipping on their characters. Additionally, most (all?) were obtained via faction story line and awarded to the player, rather than being looted or bought. People care about that, too. Virtually every RPG on the market at the time did these things better. Morrowind, much better. Also, you say Gothic is sandboxy, but it's really not, is it? Areas only respawn between chapters, if at all, some areas are linear and others control access, interactions with NPCs are usually few and strictly limited, and so on. The Sandbox was the only thing I liked about Morrowind, and Gothic didn't have it. Nor did it have the party based system of other popular RPGs at the time. It also didn't have the great story of some other RPGs at the time, despite what some people here say. And I recall a lot of people crowing about how Gothic had voice acting for all dialog, whereas other games including Morrowind did not. Well, that may be true, but the voice acting was horrible. Bad enough to put people off. It put me off. And they only managed to have 100% voice acting for all dialog because there wasn't very much dialog. And that's actually because there wasn't much story. It was really a fantasy combat simulator, wasn't it? In any case, the combat is the one thing that Gothic did better than other action-y first person RPGs of that time period. But without getting past the criminally bad user interface, people would never know about that.
Now you are actually starting to talk sense. Posting your opinions on the matter lucidly and I respect that.

That is why I am going to put a little bit of my precious saturday morning gaming time aside to say:
a) GUI: I have criticized it myself in principle. Doesn't matter to me at all I grew up playing classics that didn't have any to speak of. I find it ridiculously easy to adapt to. kids stuff

b) The handling of loot and armor as a status symbol and faction choice perk is an enormous plus for me. Loved it. One of my favorite things on the series

c) Gothic is very sandbox. Sandbox means giving you enough material that work in a sufficiently abstract manner, that combining them in creative and intuitive ways produces a fun and interesting outcome, emergent gameplay and different ways to progress over quests and the game in general. Gothic with its excellent level design various nooks and crannies load of objects you could interact with and open ended non scripted approach had loads of it. Very little area blockage and that was mostly to facilitate story related purposes. You have to work to gain access to some areas. Be part of the gang. A typical RPG progress device and a staple of the series that I love.

Was Morrowind more open and sandbox ? Well yeah! That was the game design and it needs the resources Beth can put to the table to pull this kind of game off.

Gothic is less open World focused and more Story/chapter progression designed as I was implying.

Anyways, let me lay a possible misunderstanding to rest. It is never my intention to try to convince anyone that Gothic (or any game) is a classic (it is to me and also one of my favorite series ever) that would be a particularly bad use of my time

Just stating my opinion on the matter. Others may take or leave what parts of it they feel useful and maybe consider games (or aspects of them) that they missed and may be one day worth to take a shot at. That is why I frequent this board and have been very well served in discovering new stuff after reading someone's interesting opinions…
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