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Default Deus Ex - Nixed Ending @ CVG

July 22nd, 2007, 02:32
Harvey Smith is quoted at CVG about a moon-base ending that never made it into Deus Ex. Presumably the topic came up because Witch boy is currently working on an Area 51 game called BlackSite:
"I didn't want to put Area 51 in Deus Ex!", its illustrious lead designer told PC Zone magazine recently. "I didn't find it that interesting. In fact, initially it was a moonbase. You were going to use the rocket to get to the international space-station (which in our fiction was just sagging and falling apart and barely held together), and from there you were going to use a shuttle to get to a luxury space-station which was going to be like the Titanic."
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July 22nd, 2007, 02:32
FPSWatch.com?

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July 22nd, 2007, 04:44
RPGWatch has always covered RPGs, games with RPG elements (like Deus Ex), and games which are otherwise of interest to the userbase. Note the number of strategy games on the front page.

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July 22nd, 2007, 04:54
Anyone else find this ironically hilarious, that a Lead Designer making a game about Area 51, admitting he had nothing to do with the Area 51, in one of the best games made by a general consensus, even stating he argued against it?
Let’s hope his ability to learn about something, out ways his bad judgment.

Needless to say I will be waiting for at least 10 objective reviews [If that is even possible in today’s grossly incompetent mainstream media] showing Area 51 game is at least a good game.

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July 22nd, 2007, 05:14
I never made it through japan, so I can't comment with experience. But Area 51 seems a little silly in any game (or movie). Why not have a game end in the grassy knoll, or the secret meeting room where the US goverment planned the 9/11 attacks? The "moon-landing" filming studio would be a good choice. I can't think of any other conspiracy theories, but if i could I would add them as a fitting ending to a futuristic sci-fi game. Maybe Dues Ex did it well, and it made sense, but I just can't see it. Granted, I wouldn't have seen the area 51 or the space ending since I wouldn't have gotten any farther than I did regardless (not because Dues Ex is a bad game by any means, its just long. Too long for me to stay interested, which is true of any really long game, regardless of its goodness. I love wiz 7 and I've never beat it for the same reason).
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July 22nd, 2007, 06:33
Originally Posted by roqua View Post
I wouldn't have gotten any farther than I did regardless (not because Dues Ex is a bad game by any means, its just long. Too long for me to stay interested, which is true of any really long game, regardless of its goodness. I love wiz 7 and I've never beat it for the same reason).
Well at least we know better than to ask you if you've ever finished any of the Elder Scrolls games.
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July 22nd, 2007, 07:57
roqua
"Maybe Dues Ex did it well, and it made sense"
Yes they managed to make it fit seamlessly into the story from almost the beginning of the game.

I wont tell you to much about it other than to say, you might consider keeping your Saved Games, once you get bored, then a year later when you forgotten you were bored or there is an unusally long dry spell of new games give it a try from your last stop.

There isn't much decent about how good of a game the orginal DX , sure there are some problems but most people give a little leeway with this and System Shock games, since both were FPS and not standard RPGs per say, but very inoovative.and creative.

Here's hoping you get around to finishing it some day or if you need a Save Game starting in Chinatown, just give some hints to your play style and I am sure someone will have a similar Save or make one.

Hey no kidding JDR13 those are really long games, here's hoping roqua had the patience to finish Gothic games, though.

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July 22nd, 2007, 08:25
Originally Posted by Morbus View Post
FPSWatch.com?
*shrug* Deus Ex is definitely in our coverage regime. You're more than welcome to argue the point if you disagree, though.

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July 22nd, 2007, 09:02
roqua the first area 51 game that came out a couple of years ago (fairly mediocre, but not bad) had a level specifically designed around the "filming of the moonbase landing" it was pretty funny…until cloaked snipers showed up. the only reason i played the game in the first place was because tom hall did some work on it.
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July 22nd, 2007, 12:00
I think the key point of conspiracy theory is the paranoiac feeling that an individual cannot trust any modern organization. Details may vary but it is true that we don't have a simple and clear vision on how the modern complex politics and economy are working (I personally prefer much more subtle approach than DXs did, though). Also, in two games, conspiracy theory works in a different way. In the original, even if the dominant political organizations are treachery, it was clear which is the good guys and which is the villains. In DXIW, there are no such distinctive differences among groups. Although this enhanced the grayness of the world, it also reduced dramatic character interactions (Even J. C. Denton's sunglass was ingenious not because it make him look like a Terminator clone but because it depends on the players to imagine his expression…subtleness doesn't always mean irresponsibility.) and, as a result, made NPC interactions and character development feel soulless, mechanical and empty. Talking of being soulless, somehow, IW doesn't feel hardboiled, either. In well-written hardboiled novels, the main characters are much more interesting than Alex D can be. The conspiracy theory aspect of Invisible War offered a lot of interesting political satires, which the players cannot interact with like NPCs in Deus EX. Then, why did they release it as a game rather than a Sci-Fi novel? I know the balancing simulation essences and emotional effects is tough but I like to seem more of these games which carry both deeper emotional effects and themes, which makes interactive simulation interesting.

OT

As for the genre argument,
Gamasutra: What's the origin of the name “Junction Point?”
WS: When I was with Looking Glass, the last thing I worked on with them on was a concept that I came up with along with Doug Church and some other guys. It was a very different approach to multiplayer online games called Junction Point. I loved the name and concept. I'm not revealing anything too dramatic since we're not doing the game, though I'd love to some day, but the name spoke to me more as a name for a studio than a name for a game. A junction point is where a lot of things come together and that you can go in a lot of different directions. If you think about the kind of games I like to work on and play, it's a lot of genres coming together. If you look at Deus Ex, we still win best role playing, action and story game awards [even today]. I love the fact that we confound the marketing people, frankly. Junction point expresses that. The games I like to make are all about players choosing directions, paths and play styles. A place where a lot of things come together and offer a lot of places to go… what better name could there be? It's also nice that it abbreviates to JPS, which rolls off the tongue.
From a Gamsutra interview "All For Games: An Interview with Warren Spector"

Even in movies, we normally don't mix the criticism about works itself with other factors. However, about video games, I often come across arguments among "sects" such as genres, platforms and, quite often, rumors, or, what we are not sure of, about economic relationship between publishers and developers. There are definitely pressures from stakeholders since major games tend to consume much money and many developers complains of the pressure. However, personally, I think the games should be evaluated by their own just like movies and influences from the outside should be treated as secondary information.

That said, at least, considering the current status, investing on video games is a risky business and stakeholders naturally like to reduce the risk. If someone doesn't like it, then, I recommend him/her to look for indies, or games which have less stakeholders. If you like to see more of experimental side of the video games combined with modern technology like myself, find your favorite designers and track them. In this case, though, the designers probably need your support, especially money. Sometimes, you may have to choose lesser "evils." For example, Steam has its own defects but I think it's better than what Microsoft is planning. They try to take even "server maintenance fee." The company seems to have concluded that it is much easier to squeeze money from individual gamers rather than from professional companies. For Microsoft, it is just a natural shift and it explains the huge investment to their console. You will get a "bargain" at first but they are planning further and eventually you are going to pay them more. For this, MS wants their "customers" to stay uneducated. I am not doing Anti-MS propaganda but I cannot but agree with Spector and Levine that both gamers and designers should know better. However, I guess I have derailed too much…
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July 22nd, 2007, 14:56
I don't mind aliens in games, just Area 51 specifically seems cheesy (unless a game is built around it, or a movie). Look at Independence Day, the Area 51 garbage is hands-down the most cheesy less "good" in my opinion.

It just makes anything discredited when area 51 is involved seriously. Lets say an alien ship did crash land in roswell (or whatever its called), the chances of them keeping it in that area are zero. That would be retarded. You take it where there is no heat. Second, the amount of people needed to run a place like that guarantess the secret wouldn't be a secret for long at all. When I was in the army and we got locked down for a real world mission, they had to take our phones away first thing, and we had to go places in groups so no one could sneak off and call their wife/mom and spill the beans. People talk. People don't stay at posts for their whole lifes, they do rotations. There would be thousands and thousands of people that would've staffed area 51 over the years. And all of them would have to have not said a word to anyone ever. Thats impossible.

How it benefits a game is the knowledge about it. You hear area 51 you think aliens and a secret base. But some other base not caled area 51 or connected to roswell probably could've replaced area 51 and the story would've been more solid and more plausible and less cheesy. Unless there is some story hook that made it have to be Area 51. But that just seems silly to me if they could've had the ending in space and not area 51.

roqua the first area 51 game that came out a couple of years ago (fairly mediocre, but not bad) had a level specifically designed around the "filming of the moonbase landing" it was pretty funny…until cloaked snipers showed up. the only reason i played the game in the first place was because tom hall did some work on it.
Thats funny. At least the game didn't take itself too serious.
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July 22nd, 2007, 15:48
Well, Deus Ex was all about classic conspiracy theories, had things like the Illuminati and Area 51, so it worked. When I was playing and realised I was going to Area 51 I kind of rolled my eyes and groaned but it was still great fun.
I'm not so sure going to a moonbase would have been any less out there, and I'm glad the game went the direction it did. Area 51 was still rather over-the-top, but the story kept it all together right up through the ending.

As for the Deus Ex 2 factions that Dusk discusses, he's right. I didn't care a bit about any of the Invisible War groups, and didn't want to help any of them at all. DX2 was not as bad as the reputation it has, I still enjoyed it a fair bit, and the factions were done well, they just weren't appealing. It was like having to pick one thing to eat, and your choices were a rotten apple, a way over-ripe banana or a stale mouldy piece of bread. I actually wound up consulting some walkthroughs to check the paths for the factions to find which was the least-offending. I think I sided with the Dentons in the end.

You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views, which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.
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July 22nd, 2007, 15:59
I'm actually playing through DX2 now. It was like $15 bucks on direct2drive. I'm in lower seatlle but I think the factions aren't that bad so far. I also don't think DX 2 is a bad game at all, its just takes away too much of what was in dx, and leaves you with a good game, just not a great or classic game. Hopefully its shorter so I'll finish. But thanks for spoiling it and letting me know the dentons are alive you bastard. Just kidding, I figured they were. I can use wiz7 as an example here as well since wiz 8 took away a lot of things I loved about wiz 7. Stupid streamlining. I know a lot of people like wiz 8 far more than 7, but no one can say it wasn't streamlined. Wiz8 is still fantastic and a classic, but it could have been a lot more if the didn't streamline char creation or make everything so neat and tidy and simple when it came to char creation and development.
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July 22nd, 2007, 17:18
DX2 is a solid game, and had it not been a sequel to Deux Ex, I think it would've got much, much better press. I enjoyed it a lot, and it isn't too long. I tend not to finish long games, particularly FPS ones.
The only thing that really irked me was that I just wanted to tell all the factions to bugger off.

You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views, which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.
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July 22nd, 2007, 18:32
Originally Posted by Dusk View Post
investing on video games is a risky business and stakeholders naturally like to reduce the risk.
What about companies WITHOUT shareholders ?

The risk would be the same, but the pressurre of constantly generating money would be reduced (to the company's own survival).

It appears to me, as if a company structure containing shareholders is the only one available.

Which it is not.
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July 22nd, 2007, 18:49
Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer View Post
What about companies WITHOUT shareholders ?

The risk would be the same, but the pressurre of constantly generating money would be reduced (to the company's own survival).

It appears to me, as if a company structure containing shareholders is the only one available.

Which it is not.
Well, the general goal of any business is to generate long term economic profit for the owners. Bethesda/zeniwhatever media is a private company. Same with Subway. And stakeholder can be a non-owner. Empleyees are stake-holders. PETA would be a stakeholder in KFC and how they get and grow their chicken. The community around the Ford plant in Michigan are all stakeholders.

I think it has less to do with incorporated business and private, and more to do with the size and goal of the creation of the game in question. Bethesda's goal is to make as much as possible. The goal of IronTower is to make an rpg that no big company will make. The people at IronTower might have various stakes or goals in creating the game, but the big goal isn't to make a lot of money or to have AoD be a mega-blockbuster. If AoD became a mainstream mega-seller VD would have to make fun of the positive news posts about his game that retarded journalists would write, and VD would I bet.
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July 22nd, 2007, 22:48
Deus Ex 1 is more rpg than most of those so called real rpgs.. What comes to dx2 it was a huge dissapointment and i don't want to even remember playing it. It was an insult to anyone who loved the first game. Dumbed down/watered gameplay, a lot smaller levels, unintresting factions, lack of game "lore" (no datacubes, newspapers etc) and most of the utmost crappiest interface/inventory I've seen to this date. And the funniest thing is Harwey smith himself is most responsible for that.
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July 23rd, 2007, 00:39
Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
*shrug* Deus Ex is definitely in our coverage regime. You're more than welcome to argue the point if you disagree, though.
Oh, nevermind, it's just that I didn't knew your coverage regime that well it seems You are free to do as you please, and I'm not in the place to argue. Arguing about Deus Ex being an FPS or an RPG, that's another thing I don't think this is the place though.

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July 23rd, 2007, 01:05
I've done it a million times and I think I tired everyone out on that debate, or debates like it. I'm very annoying. You'll see. You'll all see.

I think they keep me around because once and a while I say something entertaining.
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July 23rd, 2007, 01:11
Originally Posted by roqua View Post
Well, the general goal of any business is to generate long term economic profit for the owners. Bethesda/zeniwhatever media is a private company. Same with Subway. And stakeholder can be a non-owner. Empleyees are stake-holders. PETA would be a stakeholder in KFC and how they get and grow their chicken. The community around the Ford plant in Michigan are all stakeholders.
john lennon is a trademark of yoko ono. what does that say about profit.
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