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July 23rd, 2007, 07:57
Btw, roqua without spoiling it for you in DX1, Area 51 has less than 10% to do with Aliens in this game, it has a much greater role of importance than the normal Alien issue, this is about something far more possible, even if there were or there weren't really Aliens and a Area 51 in rl.

SInce its the difference between you possibly playing it or not becasue of the possible sillyness of the Roswell and Aliens ideas, I willl tell you this.

Slight spoiler but only if you expect aliens.

Not in the game.


Also out os courisity, why wouldn't DX1 be considered an RPG?

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July 23rd, 2007, 08:05
It's more a shooter with rpg elements!! (and yes, I've played it all the way through)

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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July 23rd, 2007, 10:19
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
It's more a shooter with rpg elements!! (and yes, I've played it all the way through)
It's what shooters should be for me to like them. Wide open, good story, character and world interaction, character development. All elements that make RPGs great as well.
Maybe its not an RPG, but it certainly wasn't just a regular shooter either. And that's probably the reason why it was so great.
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July 23rd, 2007, 11:24
Originally Posted by Gallifrey View Post
DX2 is a solid game, and had it not been a sequel to Deux Ex, I think it would've got much, much better press. I enjoyed it a lot, and it isn't too long. I tend not to finish long games, particularly FPS ones.
The only thing that really irked me was that I just wanted to tell all the factions to bugger off.
Haha. I agree with you that the content was not bad at all: the plot was well-structured and in most of the cases political satires worked with some philosophical twists. The lack of interesting characters, or more precisely, the lack of characters with whom the players be sympathetic to is good to realize a break world but, at the same time, the cost was that it also makes the story break and thus less emotionally engaging. In fact, I think the most interesting character in DXIW is NG Resonance, or exactly speaking, she and her holograms: Her holograms are intelligent and enjoyable to talk with but you cannot get rid of the feeling that they might be spying on you, working as a camouflaged surveillance system while the real Resonance is a spoiled, uninteresting plastic idle, tough harmless, making a striking the satire of pop culture as well as that coffee brand war "conspiracy theory" , which is paralleled to the in-world politics. As a whole, the content of DXIW is more appealing to our brains rather than to our hearts. For this respect, the original may more balanced but the content of DXIW was not that bad, I think. In fact, generally speaking, the reception of critics is not bad. Most of them say that it's not as good as the original is but much better than the average games. So, I think it is probably whether fan psychology and/or the apathy among "sects" as I wrote above.

Following Bioshock development info, I think Levine came up with some solutions: The moral dilemma of the choice on Little Sisters, which is simple enough and thus emotionally engaging to even people who don't read any in-game writing and the divided development teams for PC and console. I wonder if these will work or not but I think he is conscious of the issues above.

OT
Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer View Post
What about companies WITHOUT shareholders ?

The risk would be the same, but the pressurre of constantly generating money would be reduced (to the company's own survival).

It appears to me, as if a company structure containing shareholders is the only one available.

Which it is not.
It's more of a joke but when I was writing the post, Jeff Vogel interview here, which I read while back, came across to my mind.

From Jeff Vogel Interview
Jeff Vogel: Just many thanks to the surprisingly large number of people who’ve been registering our games lately. Thank you for helping me to support my family. Your kindly supplied credit card numbers are the reason that Nethergate: Resurrection and Avernum 5 will exist.
Even smaller companies have to support themselves and their families.
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July 23rd, 2007, 14:57
Corwin
"It's more a shooter with rpg elements!! (and yes, I've played it all the way through)"
So in general, a game cant be an RPG if it has Shooter elelments, like First Person or the actual guns?
Humm, maybe so.
But no way I believe you played all the way through! j/k

Gallifrey
"DX2 is a solid game"
Dusk
"I agree with you that the content was not bad at all: the plot was well-structured and in most of the cases political satires worked with some philosophical twists."

In general I agree the story had lots of potiental, but how do you guys cope/deal/understand issues like the Billie character's continuity/beleivablity as an example?
Or the fact that no matter how many times or how violently you acted against a faction they kept on calling, not to mention the horrid and constant level changing for all the quest, plus the game looks so bad and the bad inventory system, this is just a short list too.

Maybe you guys are more forgiving but these things destroy believeable of the story and gameplay for me.

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July 23rd, 2007, 17:09
Originally Posted by Acleacius View Post
Corwin
In general I agree the story had lots of potiental, but how do you guys cope/deal/understand issues like the Billie character's continuity/beleivablity as an example?
Or the fact that no matter how many times or how violently you acted against a faction they kept on calling, not to mention the horrid and constant level changing for all the quest, plus the game looks so bad and the bad inventory system, this is just a short list too.

Maybe you guys are more forgiving but these things destroy believeable of the story and gameplay for me.
I have already mentioned that NPCs interactions are rather weak compared with the original and I think your criticisms are valid. However, I think the limited inventory was a design decision. Like in the character building system in DX, I think the designers wanted players to use their brans to decide which items they should carry. Also, it is odd that a single person can carry too many utilities and weapons. Related with this, the character development systems in many CRPGs feel rather unnatural at the point that characters can increase their abilities so dramatically. In fact, in some PnP RPG, character's stats are mainly decided at the start and cannot be changed hugely later. "One-head shot and you are out" type severely made FPSes remind me these RPGs rather than CRPGs do, which can be one of the reasons why I am not into arguments over genres. DXIW's universal ammo reduced the realism, though.

In any case, whether FPS or RPG, I don't come across interesting writing so often, so forgive me if I seem to be so forgiving to other aspects at times.
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July 23rd, 2007, 20:34
Originally Posted by Dusk View Post
Even smaller companies have to support themselves and their families.
Okay, but I thought rather of other kinds of shareholders. Companies, for example.

Has anyone ever tried to produce a list what kind of shareholders gaming companies actually have ?
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July 23rd, 2007, 22:13
DX may have been an FPS with RPG elements, but it was more an RPG than so many of the action RPGs that have come out since, if not as much an RPG as some recent RPGs have been. While DX was built on FPS mechanics, the RPG elements were substantial. An involved story, many character development options that directly affected gameplay, many different ways to accompish goals (tied directly to how you build your character), interesting NPCs and a very open world all contributed to Deux Ex being a strong RPG.

In general I agree the story had lots of potiental, but how do you guys cope/deal/understand issues like the Billie character's continuity/beleivablity as an example?
Or the fact that no matter how many times or how violently you acted against a faction they kept on calling, not to mention the horrid and constant level changing for all the quest, plus the game looks so bad and the bad inventory system, this is just a short list too.

Maybe you guys are more forgiving but these things destroy believeable of the story and gameplay for me.
Well like I've said, the factions were a low-point for me. I didn't care for any of them and it was kind of silly that they kept calling on me. That said though, their apparent desperation to get the PC on-side did make sense, as they knew what he/she could ultimately do. And that's a better mechanic than a character being some chosen one or whatever.
I had hoped that I'd be able to play the factions off against each other, and was disappointed that such a feature was not available, as the whole thing seemed primed for such action.

I liked the frequent change of scenery, it kept the game fresh. Nothing kills an RPG or FPS for me like lingering in one area for too long. The graphics I thought were just fine, no complaints from me on that element, and I don't recall the inventory system being difficult.

You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views, which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.
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July 23rd, 2007, 22:40
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
It's more a shooter with rpg elements!! (and yes, I've played it all the way through)
Meh, for me? It's a bad shooter with average (yet bad) roleplay elements…

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July 24th, 2007, 13:20
Originally Posted by Gallifrey View Post
Well like I've said, the factions were a low-point for me. I didn't care for any of them and it was kind of silly that they kept calling on me. That said though, their apparent desperation to get the PC on-side did make sense, as they knew what he/she could ultimately do.
It means that Alex D is a "chosen one", at least, to some extent and J. C. Denton was such one in the original, too, especially with the ending with a quote from Voltaire, which, I find, most fit the title Deus Ex (machina). Er…sorry if I sounded bit nitpicking. I'll try to strengthen it up a bit.

While both works have much better endings than average video games do by showing simulated results based on suppositions on which the world is driven by single-minded ideologies, adding a philosophical tweak to chosen one setting, as I see it, the problem with DXIW endings more complicated: In DX, J. C. Denton can be a more heroic "chosen one" even if you pick the Machiavellian ending with the quote form Paradise Lost, where Milton finds a certain heroism in Satan. However, in its bleak sequel DXIW, where heroism is alien, Alex D is just a tool for those incarnations of single-minded ideologies. This is thematically effective because there is no perfect one ending. Each faction more or less regards Alex D as a tool to realize their ideology and most likely the players want to settle the score by messing all them up. Indeed, this option would give a player a certain kind of satisfaction but, at the same time, it would ruin the theme. This is another reason why I wrote DXIW rather appeals to our brains than to our hearts. Whether apathy or sympathy, DXIW is more of philosophical simulation where empathy doesn't find its place. These designers may compromise about gameplay but they seem to do so less about the content. Deep in their mind, they are egoistic artists, which is why I may appear to be forgiving (Of course, this doesn't mean I am totally happy with DXIW, though).

OT
Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer View Post
Okay, but I thought rather of other kinds of shareholders. Companies, for example.

Has anyone ever tried to produce a list what kind of shareholders gaming companies actually have ?
That may be interesting but I am not a specialist on finance. I am simply tired of seeing "CRPG fans" bashing a certain developers on the net without even basic knowledge about how economy works. CRPG sites now seem to attract people who enjoy a moment of attention and scare off mature posters, resulting in vicious circle (I am quite sure some of posters add comments without reading articles, which is why I often show a part of some articles with quotes). At least, as my handle name implies, I cannot expect bright future in CRPG. That said, I think it would be more constructive if the players supports the designers of their liking. Rather than searching for financial details of companies, I name the designers of my liking and tell why I like them quoting their design philosophies (Well, I'd politely ignore when Spector speak of his love of Disney, though. ) so that someone of a similar taste can benefit from the information. Of course, if someone has insight on the market, I think it probably benefit the community rather than sprinkling wild-goose-chase-like rumors but IMO, the information on games, first. Just my two cents.
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July 24th, 2007, 14:09
Dusk, I agree completey with your assessment. Invisible War did tell a good story, but unfortunately I as the player felt that the theme of Alex being a tool and the lack of empathy to be unrewarding. Not that I need my character to be some sort of great hero and all of that, but even in the grittiest of noirs or cyberpunk imaginings, there is empathy involved with the protagonist, and DX:IW did miss that.
I completely appreciated it when I realised that my character was being tossed around by various puppet-masters to achieve their own ends, but when it came down to having to choose, I just wanted to say to hell with you all. So at the end, while it worked for the story, it didn't quite pay off for me having played through it all to reach that point. As you said, it does appeal more to the mind than the heart, but you kind of need both hearts and minds to be captured for a game to really come off strongly.

You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views, which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.
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July 24th, 2007, 14:36
Originally Posted by Dusk View Post
I am simply tired of seeing "CRPG fans" bashing a certain developers on the net without even basic knowledge about how economy works.
I'm rather bashing the publishers, not the developers themselves.
To put it rather cynically, to me the publishers are "the source of all evil".
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July 24th, 2007, 14:55
Hmmm … I really liked Deus Ex, neither the best shooter nor the best RPG but an interesting combination of both.

But Deus Ex 2 was a game I really despised, to the point I wrote a whole blog entry about it a couple of years ago.

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July 24th, 2007, 15:05
I don't mind Aliens in games, too. But I do mind it when each of a game in a series leads to your fighting the same ol' invasion from space (again). [Yes, might and magic 6-9 I''m looking at your ].

Just because a gamer is played from a First Person Perspective, it doesn't mean it is a shooter. Games like Arena & Daggerfall would then by FPS games and so would the old Might and Magic games (and a ton of adventure games). What matters is this: Do you skills have any affect on how well you shoot in the game ?? And in Deus EX 1, they clearly do. It is just an RPG set in a totally different setting than we normally think of, like Necrotech and Fallout are rpg set in a setting, totally different from the D&D elves& dwarfs settings. In DEUS EX 1, you can also gain XP, and level up and such things. Not so, in Deus EX: Invisible War.

And while we're talking about DEUS EX. I know that the developer's website were down for some time since they actually thought they invited a squad name like UNATCO. It seems that such a thing really exist(ed).

As for the money thing, there is a difference between a publicly traded company and privately owned company. The privately owned company might still have shareholders, but they would mostly consist of group or two of private investors who, of course, are willing to back the company, no matter what. But still, they'd like to se a return of their investment(s). Publicly traded companys are prone to public scrutiniy as they need to release quarterly reports on how they are doing financially. This really kills any incentive to make goals for the long run, since it is all about getting the highest price for the single share value - in the long run.
Last edited by aries100; July 24th, 2007 at 15:12. Reason: spelling, grammar and content added
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July 24th, 2007, 15:53
OT
Just in case some people are confused by the terms…I wrote "stakeholders," which has much more broader sense than shareholders has and includes shareholders.
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July 24th, 2007, 18:36
Originally Posted by aries100 View Post
I don't mind Aliens in games, too. But I do mind it when each of a game in a series leads to your fighting the same ol' invasion from space (again). [Yes, might and magic 6-9 I''m looking at your ].
Hm, yes.

I think a game would be interesting when Aliens and "normals" would unite against a corrupt regime … You would have access to both "normal" AND alien equipment … To me, this would seem interesting.

In Beyond Good & Evil we have a similar situation … only vice versa … (don't want to spoil too much).
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July 26th, 2007, 09:04
I enjoyed both DX games a lot. There's a lot about both games that I find ruins me somewhat for a lot of the 'purer' RPGs I play. The character system is quite similar to the system in Bloodlines, only after getting used to the way Augs work (consuming x 'mana' per second while activated) I find that the way disciplines work feels clunky and counter-intuitive. I want to just be able to turn them on and off like an Aug and consume a certain amount of blood per second.

The main thing that bothers me about other games after playing DX is that they lack a distinction between lethan and non-lethal take-downs. It's always bothered me that in most games (RPGS or not) I will have often killed hundreds of people by the end. In Deus EX I sometimes find myself in situations where I'm okay with killing the people in my way (like the hostage situation early in DX1) and other situations where it seems less okay. Whether it's because I empathise with the people shooting at me, or I can see their point of view as being valid (maybe they don't know the full truth of the situation, maybe as far as they know you're the bad guy/terrorist, maybe they're entirely justified in shooting at you.

Playing through NWN2 for a second time at the moment, I'm often finding myself in situations where I'd be a lot more comfortable if I could just leave my enemies unconcious. By the end of the game, I'll nescessarily have killed hundreds of people. I can play through both Deus Ex games with a combined body-count of 1 (Anna in DX1).

While you don't get many dialouge choices in DX1, you do get ot make a lot of choices through interacting with your environment, and the choices aren't as static as in most RPGs. It's not good option vs evil option, or good option vs not-so-good option. As a player, playing through Deus Ex, I generally feel free to do what I want. I enjoy making my choices via actions rather than words as well- like the Lebedev interrogation. There are no dialouge choices in that scene, but you can dramatically affect the outcome through your actions. There's no dialouge that basically asks you to do one thing or another, and it's quite possible to play through that without even knowing you had a choice. Rather than the games saying 'here are your choices, now choose', the choices are just there, you can make them, or you can do nothing. It feels a lot more natural than the Watch vs Moire's Gang choice in Neverwinter.

I have mixed feelings about DXIW, I did enjoy the game a lot, and I liked that nearly every objective in the game was optional. I did have the problem of finding none of the factions appealing, especially in the early part of the game. Religious fanatics who just tried to kill you, or the obviously-corrupt WTO. That said, I have to give the game kudos for not forcing you to pick one or the other, you can pretty much make your own way through the world helping out the factions only when there objectives fit with your own. I also liked that you can choose to side with Leo at the end and just kill everyone to foil all there plans. Although the result is not entirely satisfying, the fact that you can make that choice is cool.
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July 26th, 2007, 09:15
Originally Posted by Gallifrey View Post
DX may have been an FPS with RPG elements, but it was more an RPG than so many of the action RPGs that have come out since,

I couldn't agree more. Games like Diablo aren't half the rpg that Deus Ex is.
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