|
Your continuous donations keep RPGWatch running!
RPGWatch Forums » Games » General RPG » How to separate the Indie-RPGs ?

Default How to separate the Indie-RPGs ?

January 14th, 2014, 18:15
We have always given out Awards for the best and most promising Indie-RPGs. Now the border between Indie and non-Indie is fading. How can we in a fair way decide which game is Indie and which belong into the main category?
Gorath is offline

Gorath

Gorath's Avatar
Prime Evil
RPGWatch Team

#1

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,771

Default 

January 14th, 2014, 18:19
Originally Posted by Gorath View Post
We have always given out Awards for the best and most promising Indie-RPGs. Now the border between Indie and non-Indie is fading. How can we in a fair way decide which game is Indie and which belong into the main category?
What is the Watch's (or accepted, common .. etc.) definition of indie and non-indie?
SpoonFULL is offline

SpoonFULL

SpoonFULL's Avatar
Keeper of the Watch

#2

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,285

Default 

January 14th, 2014, 18:24
That's not clear in this quickly changing environment.

Are the Larian games indie? Larian has become a publisher.
Wasteland 2? Has a big budget.
Blackguards? Publisher backing but probably smallish budget.
Gorath is offline

Gorath

Gorath's Avatar
Prime Evil
RPGWatch Team

#3

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,771

Default 

January 14th, 2014, 18:42
Well indie should be anything that isn't funded by publisher or investors.
Nameless one is offline

Nameless one

Nameless one's Avatar
Keeper of the Watch

#4

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,099

Default 

January 14th, 2014, 18:47
But most indie developers *are* publishers.
Gorath is offline

Gorath

Gorath's Avatar
Prime Evil
RPGWatch Team

#5

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,771

Default 

January 14th, 2014, 18:52
Originally Posted by Gorath View Post
But most indie developers *are* publishers.
That's right, and isn't that the true definition of a Indie= independent RPG, one that does it all themselves.
Warmark is offline

Warmark

Sentinel

#6

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Vancouver , Canada
Posts: 365

Default 

January 14th, 2014, 19:26
I think it'll be easier to separate the actual games we have in our list into indie and non-indie than coming up with a boundary.
We could get a team-size or budget limit but even looking past the difficulty of getting and being confident in such info it'll be definitely be arbitrary.

I'd just like to interject here and point out that I'm not going to say anything to spoil the mood, Chief. I'll just float here and watch. Don't mind me, just sitting here, floating and watching, that's me.
Kostas is offline

Kostas

Kostas's Avatar
Dormant Watcher

#7

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Dear Green Place
Posts: 1,632

Default 

January 14th, 2014, 22:00
Originally Posted by Nameless one View Post
Well indie should be anything that isn't funded by publisher or investors.
By that definition, wouldn't Blizzard be considered "indie"? Well..before the activision-blizzard anyway.
It's a rather loose term these days..but personally what I would mostly accept as indie are those smaller teams who makes games having a low budget without any large scale backers.
Yes, indie stands for independent..but the term indie has also grown from low budgets and unknown names.

Speak your own words of wisdom instead of quoting someone else's.
NyxVampiria is offline

NyxVampiria

NyxVampiria's Avatar
Semidevilish

#8

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: in a figment of my imagination
Posts: 197

Default 

January 14th, 2014, 22:17
Perhaps you should use now the most promising "crowdfunding" RPG instead of "indie"? That'd include indiegogo, kickstarter or early access games that weren't funded by some big, evil and filthy (rich?) publisher.

Toka Koka
joxer is offline

joxer

joxer's Avatar
The Smoker
RPGWatch Donor

#9

Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,743

Default 

January 15th, 2014, 04:56
Do we really need to separate indie & non-indie? In the end, what matters is that the games are good and worth our time. It does not matter if it is a somewhat basic looking game like say Avernum or a massive game with a graphics budget that would be enough to sustain a small country, like Mass effect (slight exaggeration there, but I think you get my point), they both compete for the same pool of time, and in the end the better game should be the one you play.
Fnord is offline

Fnord

Fnord's Avatar
Keeper of the Watch

#10

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 1,360

Default 

January 15th, 2014, 05:00
Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
Do we really need to separate indie & non-indie
No we don't the staff just wanted to see the readers opinion first.

"Beware the potato for he is easily angered."- Couchpotato
Last edited by Couchpotato; January 15th, 2014 at 11:07. Reason: Edited for Gorath
Couchpotato is offline

Couchpotato

Couchpotato's Avatar
LazyGamer
RPGWatch Team

#11

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Potato Land
Posts: 8,781

Default 

January 15th, 2014, 05:13
I would suggest

crowdfounded
mobile
low budget PC title

the last category could allow PC titles to have major publishers or even Steam. What "low budget" means can be subject to some interpretation. Its happy medium without the need to throw out anything that's not self-published.

I can't think of any indy console RPG's. There's a fad in 8bit style games but they I can't think of any that aren't just silly.

Developer of The Wizard's Grave Android game. Discussion Thread:
http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22520
Lucky Day is offline

Lucky Day

Lucky Day's Avatar
Daywatch

#12

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: The Uncanny Valley
Posts: 3,177

Default 

January 15th, 2014, 07:22
All games are in one pool.

Every game can win in all categories!

Categories could be:

Best crowdfunded game
Best normal funded game

Best small team/low budget game
Best big team/high budget game

Best turn based combat RPG
Best Action RPG
Best Adventure RPG


Best mobile game
Best PC game


Best game overall


——-

So no game have to be pre-selected, the voters vote games into a category.
Nice side effect: An Indie-game can be the overall winner.

For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong. - HL Mencken
HiddenX is offline

HiddenX

HiddenX's Avatar
The Elder Spy
RPGWatch Donor

#13

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: NRW/Germany
Posts: 3,598

Default 

January 15th, 2014, 09:33
You can't separate them and you shouldn't, in my opinion.

A game is a game - and if it's good, it doesn't matter how much money went behind it - and it doesn't matter how much you have to pay for it.

Obviously, a lower budget means lower production values - but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Good indie developers know their strengths and they can pull off a nice visual aesthetic with limited means, like the case is with Eschalon or Grimrock.

Path of Exile looks fantastic for such a small team as well.

Nah, I vote to not care about the budget. That's something that can be talked about in the review.

That goes for crowd-funding, "true" indies, middle-market and AAA games.
DArtagnan is offline

DArtagnan

DArtagnan's Avatar
Waste of potential

#14

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Denmark
Posts: 13,940

Default 

January 15th, 2014, 10:40
Originally Posted by Couchpotato View Post
No we don't the staff just wanted to see the readers opinion first.

Were leaning towards getting rid of the category from now on. If anyone read my other thread I talked about the awards being different this year.
Actually I think we're rather leaning towards discussing it a bit more.

The problem with getting rid of the categories is that the results become predictable. As on most major gaming sites, the "biggest" game will win GOTY, simply because it has the biggest community behind. Small games have no chance.

Maybe we should call it "alternative funding" instead of crowdfunding. This would allow Avadon 2 (self-funded) into that category too.

Or what about about that:
We don't create categories beforehand but let you vote on the games you liked best ("Mark all games you have played and would recommend to your fellow gamers to spend their hard earned cash and rare gaming time on"). Then we interpret the results and give out a couple of awards based on them.
And everybody who donates 10$ or more unlocks a special tier which allows him to participate in the staff discussion about the awards.
Gorath is offline

Gorath

Gorath's Avatar
Prime Evil
RPGWatch Team

#15

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,771

Default 

January 15th, 2014, 11:00
Originally Posted by Gorath View Post
Actually I think we're rather leaning towards discussing it a bit more.
Take all the time you need though as I'm not getting any younger. I think some people love to over think, and worry about every little detail.

Originally Posted by Gorath View Post
And everybody who donates 10$ or more unlocks a special tier which allows him to participate in the staff discussion about the awards.
Sounds good to me as I want my 10% cut of the profits.

"Beware the potato for he is easily angered."- Couchpotato
Couchpotato is offline

Couchpotato

Couchpotato's Avatar
LazyGamer
RPGWatch Team

#16

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Potato Land
Posts: 8,781

Default 

January 15th, 2014, 11:11
Originally Posted by NyxVampiria View Post
By that definition, wouldn't Blizzard be considered "indie"? Well..before the activision-blizzard anyway.
Ok, I see your point, and you are right my definition is not fitting.

Originally Posted by Gorath View Post
Actually I think we're rather leaning towards discussing it a bit more.

The problem with getting rid of the categories is that the results become predictable. As on most major gaming sites, the "biggest" game will win GOTY, simply because it has the biggest community behind. Small games have no chance.

Maybe we should call it "alternative funding" instead of crowdfunding. This would allow Avadon 2 (self-funded) into that category too.
I think on watch it doesn't matter at least seeing what regular posters say games like avadon 2 could easily win.But than again there are lot of lurkers, and it's hard to predict what they will vote.

Originally Posted by Gorath View Post
We don't create categories beforehand but let you vote on the games you liked best ("Mark all games you have played and would recommend to your fellow gamers to spend their hard earned cash and rare gaming time on"). Then we interpret the results and give out a couple of awards based on them.
And everybody who donates 10$ or more unlocks a special tier which allows him to participate in the staff discussion about the awards.
If you go for something like that maybe you should make thread for discussing results for donors and watchers with 2k+ posts and at least 3-4 years on watch.
Last edited by Nameless one; January 15th, 2014 at 11:23.
Nameless one is offline

Nameless one

Nameless one's Avatar
Keeper of the Watch

#17

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,099

Default 

January 15th, 2014, 11:39
The thing is that people do not know for sure what indie RPGs mean because indie is not a factual concept. It is all a matter of subjective definitions.
All we can do is to understand what the others mean by indie to relate to their subjective perception.

So the solution is simple: lets people decide. Put a reward for indie RPGs and let people cast their votes not from a pre established list but from the list of games they consider as being an indie game.

One example of organization.

-The vote period is set.
-In a thread, voters tell the game their subjectivity tells them to vote as the best indie game.
-Vote period is closed.
-Votes are counted.
-The game that collects the most votes is the indie game of the year, no matter what (published by Activision or stuff like that)

This way, once aggregated, you will get the subjectively voted indie RPG of the year.

Counting votes might require some work but nothing bad actually.
ChienAboyeur is offline

ChienAboyeur

SasqWatch

#18

Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,015

Default 

January 15th, 2014, 12:57
I see no reason why indies and non-indies should be seperated like this in context of awards.

As DArtagnan said,
a game is a game - and if it's good, it doesn't matter how much money went behind it.
What we are doing here are awards given by gamers themselves. The only thing I can think of in context of money is how much the gamer had to pay for playing the game.
So you could have a categorie with e.g. 3 price levels, something like Full Price ($40+), Half Price ($20-40) and Low Price ($0-20). The prices being the ones from "final release" (whatever this means today).

As I think of awards, categories and stuff, we could go totally crazy with multiple categories, where each game can be in each categorie (e.g. Half-Price, Action, PC). We would have an exponentially growing number of awards.
Voting won't be too complex, but will work different. The voters wouldn't simply select a game from a list for each award, but instead rate every (nominated?) game one single time with a certain score (e.g. 0 to 5 stars). Then for each category-combination you just take the fitting games and the game with the best average score wins the award.
Would be a highly dynamical system as you can add and remove categories quite easily, even after the voting.

I'd like that!
Morrandir is offline

Morrandir

Morrandir's Avatar
Keeper of the Watch
RPGWatch Donor

#19

Join Date: May 2013
Location: Germany
Posts: 818

Default 

January 15th, 2014, 13:04
I don't think the price you pay should be relevant either.

Think about it.

Let's say you got Skyrim at a bargain price of 10$.

Does that make the game inherently better because you didn't pay 50$?

Are you not going to have exactly the same game - just at a cheaper price?

Price is relevant for the consumer, sure, but not for the quality of the game. I don't see it, and I don't like this concept of dividing cheap games and expensive games.

Games = entertainment, and the only relevant factor is how FUN they are. Price can and probably should be talked about - but not as a measure of quality.

All imo, obviously.
DArtagnan is offline

DArtagnan

DArtagnan's Avatar
Waste of potential

#20

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Denmark
Posts: 13,940
RPGWatch Forums » Games » General RPG » How to separate the Indie-RPGs ?
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:27.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright by RPGWatch