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Default Bioshock - Review @ GameBanshee

September 26th, 2007, 15:21
I think that if they had just made some tweaks to this mechanic, it would have been good. Like if they had charged you some money to use, and if you had to do something on each level to activate them. Other games that I have played with this type of mechanic at least have some kind of cost associated with it or in the case of Prey, it's a minigame.
I don't know why they didn't simply do what they did in System Shock (both of them). Only one chamber pr. level and you had to manually activate them.

That way you were still never in real danger of redoing vast amounts of the game unintentionally, but it was inconvenient enough to not warrant abuse.

The Xbox 360 version has a smooth save system as well, so there's really no reason for the abundant chambers. At least not a reason I agree with.
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September 26th, 2007, 16:32
Originally Posted by Brother None View Post
Where was I questioning the validity of your opinion?
I was pretty clear - you stated that "I wasn't grasping the fact". Fact, as in "a piece of information presented as having objective reality". It is about as stark a dismissal as you could muster. But like you, I'd rather discuss how all of this stuff in the game fits together …

Originally Posted by Brother None View Post
Ok, so you have no intention to address my actual arguments?
Perhaps I would have been better saying "you can't be a little bit pregnant" than talking cannibal, since you are absolutely correct in what you are saying about 'shades of gray'. In a pregnancy analogy, it matters not how you get that way, through rape, incest, consensual, or whatever - you're pregnant. The point I was making was that there was almost a 'den' or 'hive' mentality presented for the Little Sisters. And in virtually all of those sorts of 'societies', if you are tainted in any way - be it a chick touched by a human, or whatever - you are completely rejected forever and absolutely.

And Yes, the Ayn Rand thing is so patently obvious (to the shape and name of Atlas, even) that I didn't think it worth mentioning. We were talking Little Sisters and where they fall in terms of importance and I was stating that part of our disagreement was you see them as a non-entity and I see them as a very important part. I was saying that I thought that the dystopian destruction of the fundamental unit of human existence - the family unit - was a central part of the story as well. I found it beyond the equivalent of Doom's monster closet - a cheap device - which seems to be your basic opinion. And that is how I see there to be a 'struggle' between the PC and 'society' - because the player is at once part of that world and apart from it, representing the forces of freedom and oppression all at once. Of course … later in the game it is just about killin' stuff, but that was how the setup worked for me. Perhaps it is, as Stanza says, that I bought into the narrative more fully - and perhaps it is because the Little Sister thing played me like a fiddle regardless of the obvious intent.

But aside from that, I believe my thoughts on the Little Sisters tie in with the whole Rand thing because of the fall of Ryan's society - people there are encouraged to 'better themselves' and pursue self-interest without constraints or ethics and so on. Yet the very notion of family itself contains a great degree of conflict between selfishness and selflessness. The idea of sacrificing children to further the selfish ideals of the society plays further into the whole central theme of the inherent conflict of freedom you mention.

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September 26th, 2007, 18:01
I will note that I don't think your statements reflect on my point, txa. That's to say, you're considering the philosophical underpinnings of the Little Sisters. I recognize that, but I should add that even more strongly than A. Ryan and Atlas, these underpinnings are a part of the setting, not the story, and thus not really relevant to how I considered the LSs so far.

Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
Perhaps I would have been better saying "you can't be a little bit pregnant" than talking cannibal, since you are absolutely correct in what you are saying about 'shades of gray'. In a pregnancy analogy, it matters not how you get that way, through rape, incest, consensual, or whatever - you're pregnant. The point I was making was that there was almost a 'den' or 'hive' mentality presented for the Little Sisters. And in virtually all of those sorts of 'societies', if you are tainted in any way - be it a chick touched by a human, or whatever - you are completely rejected forever and absolutely.
What, the LSs are?

Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
And Yes, the Ayn Rand thing is so patently obvious (to the shape and name of Atlas, even) that I didn't think it worth mentioning. We were talking Little Sisters and where they fall in terms of importance and I was stating that part of our disagreement was you see them as a non-entity and I see them as a very important part.
Hold on there, I never stated nor do I think they are a non-entity in the setting. I simply consider that a seperate subject (see above).

Besides, you stated they were most important, and that's just patently incorrect. They're not "practically the very core", once you ignore the emotional impact they're peripheral, though obviously they're a centrifugal force in the setting itself (y'know, what with the Adam and all), but not more so than Ryan or the smugglers.

Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
I was saying that I thought that the dystopian destruction of the fundamental unit of human existence - the family unit - was a central part of the story as well. I found it beyond the equivalent of Doom's monster closet - a cheap device - which seems to be your basic opinion. And that is how I see there to be a 'struggle' between the PC and 'society' - because the player is at once part of that world and apart from it, representing the forces of freedom and oppression all at once. Of course … later in the game it is just about killin' stuff, but that was how the setup worked for me. Perhaps it is, as Stanza says, that I bought into the narrative more fully - and perhaps it is because the Little Sister thing played me like a fiddle regardless of the obvious intent.

But aside from that, I believe my thoughts on the Little Sisters tie in with the whole Rand thing because of the fall of Ryan's society - people there are encouraged to 'better themselves' and pursue self-interest without constraints or ethics and so on. Yet the very notion of family itself contains a great degree of conflict between selfishness and selflessness. The idea of sacrificing children to further the selfish ideals of the society plays further into the whole central theme of the inherent conflict of freedom you mention.
I think your latter point is correct, the former isn't, or only partially. I think the abuse of children hammers home the point of the self-destructive nature of Ryan's view of humanity (or the humane flaws in it, whichever way you want to put it), but I don't think that's a central philosophical point.

But when you consider it from Rand's point of view, it has a simply source in the fact that there should be no limitation to the greatness of man, including morality. But that doesn't mean you should consider the LSs from the viewpoint of our standard morality (nor in terms of "selfishness", which is not directly relevant, I'd say), but rather as an extreme exponent of the fact that there are no limitations to the Atlasian morality of BioShock itself. I think one reviewer compared it to Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment, and he was right inasfar as the LSs represent an extreme of greatness over any form of morality. I think we're agreed on that point, we just diverge in that you continue down Raskolnikov's paths to redemption, while I don't consider the possibility of redemption or the moral implications the key point that Rapture is trying to express. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that, at least if my interpretation is right and I'm not misrepresenting your point.

Though I would like to clarify one step further, in that I think that the LSs and BDs are a kind of hybrid of the above point of "no boundaries set by morality" and by a reflection of total lack of empowerment that is inherent of children switched to the near invincible status of the LSs and, more importantly, the empowerment given to them by the presence of the Big Daddies. So on top of the ignoring of morality, I'd say that in Rapture's world the LSs represents a change from lack of empowerment to insane empowerment just as much as the splicers do. And that, in my opinion, changes the whole view of 'em.

I think.
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September 26th, 2007, 18:50
Originally Posted by dgfhgjkhjkhfjf View Post
I'm soebody and I think it's a horrible, petty, and childish game. It was created soley to be an insult and a slap in the face to people that fit one of the following criteria: are older than nine, have at least a 3rd grade education, have at least one testicle, bodies that produce even the slightest amount of testosterone, or are not somehow mentally handicapable.
I'm older than nine, have at least a third grade education, two testicles, a normal sperm count, and am considered legally mentally competent (not quite sure about what you mean by "handicapable" — capable of being handy?) — and I'm not insulted. Ergo, you're wrong. QED.

A score of more than 10% out of 100 is an atrocity and speaks volumes of the piss poor state of the gaming market. May God have mercy on all your souls.
You know what they say about opinions…
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September 26th, 2007, 18:52
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LIES!!!! Flithy, monkey lies. My mother would beg to differ. She says I'm somebody and very special, and she also said that I just might be the best kisser she has had the pleasure of necking with. And I'm not too shabby in the old sack BTW. Yours lies ment to hurt me and undermine my truth have not worked, because I'm rubber and you, sir, are glue. So whatever you say to me bounces off and sticks to you. Chew on that a little, mr. meany-pants!!!!
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September 26th, 2007, 21:17
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September 26th, 2007, 22:51
Originally Posted by kjfdfgjjfghkk View Post
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September 26th, 2007, 23:55
It's not roqua. It's Viking Berserker. And now it's too late. You've all fed him too much. God save us all…
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September 27th, 2007, 00:05
When feeding trolls, imagine you're feeding them spaghetti sauce like that weighty dude in Se7en. Eventually they burst, and you get to dissect them at your whim.

I vote for more sauce.
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September 27th, 2007, 03:05
Originally Posted by chamr View Post
It's not roqua. It's Viking Berserker. And now it's too late. You've all fed him too much. God save us all…
Really? The self-adulation is missing …

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September 27th, 2007, 06:55
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
Really? The self-adulation is missing …
That… and the spelling is too flawless for both, VB and Roqua (unless they both faked illiteracy ).
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September 28th, 2007, 08:07
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September 28th, 2007, 09:06
the comments about the little sisters not meaning anything are ludicris. they are little girls walking around, trying to stay alive, they get frightened and even play hopscotch with themselves sometimes. their role in rapture is there role. i think that bioshock does a good job at asking what is your role. its a game and its both irrelevent that the ending give you nearly the same experience. life is a game to and i hate to break it to you but we all die no matter who has the most toys.

i would also say that anyone who sees the harvesting the little sisters as irrelevent and doing no harm is about as correct as someone who thinks reading a horde of nazi literature. whether or not the act is hurting someone else isn't what matters, its the emotion attached to the desensitizing i think that is relevant. if bioshock gave a clear better outcome by saving the little sisters it would make more people go that route just because the rewards were greater and vice versa. following morals takes faith and often requires sacrifice so what?

speaking of faith, if people can believe in dieties who actually either neither create art or emotion why can't people put faith in or rely on those who do without question. i've found very few people in life who can simply enjoy a person or artist for their works without the feelings like that creator of whatever art modality somehow changed or dissapointed them. for me their aren't a whole lot of people i feel that way about but as far as game creators go ken levine is with the many musicians, poets, and writers i simply love and absorb whatever they put their minds and hands to and could care less what expectations it meets as that i see is pure folly and an all too common recipe for aimless recreation.

maybe all the people who are continually dissapointed with gaming might want to try a new hobby. the perfect game will never come, much like the perfect person.

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