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October 10th, 2007, 18:56
I heard Eskimo people have 50 different expressions for snow. CU, if issues are most important to you, Why would you spend tons of words on those superficial stuff to the extand of dwelling on it. MSM might have an illusion of total contral, internet serves as a counter balance exposing their lies and prejudices. Without internet, RP would never have made it so far.

"eventually if enough 3rd party canidates get attention over a long period of time then yes i see it changing. but thats not going to happen with any amount of buzz, or even a 'grass roots' effort"

How do you achieve that quantum leap change without small incremental progress brought about by "grass roots" movement? Here is the fundamental - individual vs. collective. Things always happen on an individual level, this is what I share the common belief with RP. It is from this principle that RP's issues derive to maximize individual freedom, and limit state/collective control.

"A strong president, means having the strength to resist the temptation of taking all that power isn't yours" - Ron Paul

"If you think the problems we create are bad, just wait until you see our solutions",- Government
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October 10th, 2007, 23:10
were in agreeance more than you think. i'm not saying that voting for ron paul isn't won't help the cause. but as you keep dodging he's not a 3rd party canidate. i'm saying that these individual efforts are important. but you also have to gamble well as enough lackluster 3rd party campaigns don't exactly help the cause either. the limiting state control however is one of conservatives oldest cards. sure cutting out the waste in bureacracy is good but it usally entails providing less services for those less well off, while at the same time cutting the riches taxes, and their companies. so the only way you are going to enlighten me about ron paul is by giving me quotes, links etc to show how those aren't characteristics of ron paul. i already know he is and advocate for individual liberties, but that's more a defensive stance, what i would like to see is what his gameplans are as i've yet to meet any one in person who is actually speaking about him with your or any level of excitment. i did see a banner above the freeway overpass yesterday with a 'google ron paul' sign. i'm glad the interent has helped ron paul. but i trust the internet far less than something from an actual person, as motives and instigators are easily concealed over the web. there has to be an average makeup of a ron paul supporter, do you know what that would be? obviously its going to be highly in accurate but something to go on is better than nothing, because anyone saying my canidate appeals to everyone, is a salesman, and not an honest one at that.
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October 11th, 2007, 05:46
Here you are at it again. If a Democrate or a Republican can flip flop between the two parties, why is it so hard to accept a Libertarian to become a Republican? A tin foil hat is a tin foil hat, it is the issues that count! At this point in time, it is impossible for a third party candidate to breakthrough without having tons of cash. RP learned that lesson in 1988. His stand of limited constitutional federal government, non-interventionist foreign policy, no nation building…is in-line with the old right - Robert Taft, Barry Goldwater, which was also promised by Dubya when he was running for first term. There are RP meetup groups everywhere, mine got 300+ members. Just search meetup.com. This just came in, may answer some question by the man himself
http://video.msn.com/video.aspx/?mkt…&wa=wsignin1.0
and a good reference site
http://dailypaul.com/

check out the signs of I15 between La and Vegas
http://ronpaul.meetup.com/121/photos/

"A strong president, means having the strength to resist the temptation of taking all that power isn't yours" - Ron Paul

"If you think the problems we create are bad, just wait until you see our solutions",- Government
Last edited by mudsling3; October 11th, 2007 at 06:40.
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October 20th, 2007, 19:10
People may not believe it, but when I took the survey, Ron Paul came up as my top choice. McCain came in second(would never vote for him due to him being weak on illegal immigration and supporting amnesty for millions of illegal aliens), Giuliani was the 3rd on the list(would never vote for him either for the same reasons I wouldn't vote for McCain).
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October 21st, 2007, 04:30
My two top choices were Obama and Hillary with Dodd coming in a close third. My favorite canadite is Ron Paul though and according to this I don't agree with any of his positions except for Iraq, Social Security, Marriage and Line Item Veto.

My biggest position is Socialized Medicine. I've seen it work in Taiwan and talked to Canadians who say they never have to worry about Health Care because their government takes care of everything. So any canadite who takes that position I'm willing to vote for whether it's Republican or Democrat.

Despite all my rage.
I'm still just a rat in a cage.
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December 7th, 2007, 03:17
a good story, http://www.newsli.com/2007/12/06/pre…for-americans/

"A strong president, means having the strength to resist the temptation of taking all that power isn't yours" - Ron Paul

"If you think the problems we create are bad, just wait until you see our solutions",- Government
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December 11th, 2007, 13:48
The "survey" was close to my real pick for a candidate. It chose Mike Gravel with Dennis Kucinich a close second for the Dems, while I really support Kucinich. For the "R's" which you'd have to drag me to the poles kicking and screaming to place my vote, it chose Ron Paul. I would actually support Paul if he weren't a little kooky like that other Texan I used to think I would support, Ross Perot. Ron Paul, Ross Perot, RP? Hmm, conspiracy theories abound.

Ron Paul talks a good talk, but for those that have only seen him on Bill Maher and shows like that, he's a libertarian and is very much for a laissez faire economy. In my humble opinion, corporatocracy and privatization have been disasters for this economy, we don't need more of it.
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December 12th, 2007, 06:18
The most convincing factor about RP for me is that he walks a good walk Eiliaures, so you like non-CFR canditates? You will find a lot of different opinions regarding laissez faire/free market econonmy results in corporatism, sorta like the Fed suppose to maintain the value of the dollar…couldn't be further from the truth. and check out "emergence". I just don't see where government got the right to run my life.

couple articles relating Pavlov with population control…conspiracy? maybe…But I do see these patterns in common interaction, interesting read
http://www.ronpaulonline.com/content/view/241/214/

"A strong president, means having the strength to resist the temptation of taking all that power isn't yours" - Ron Paul

"If you think the problems we create are bad, just wait until you see our solutions",- Government
Last edited by mudsling3; December 12th, 2007 at 06:27.
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December 12th, 2007, 19:05
Well, unless you live in a cave, you are always going to have some one or some thing run your life. Even in a cave you're going to have to live at the whim of nature and what if some bear comes by and wants your cave?

That article sounds like it might be taking the line given by Naomi Klein in her book, The Shock Doctrine.
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December 12th, 2007, 20:48
This is a good example of the stuff that turns me off about Ron Paul. I don't know who the author is (the link says I'm unauthorized to find out, which is bizarre), but he's obviously paranoid.

Oh, I wish I had a river I could skate away on. But it don't snow here. It stays pretty green. I'm going to make a lot of money, then I'm going to quit this crazy scene. — [Joni Mitchell]
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December 12th, 2007, 22:10
You probably have to be a registered user to get off the main page, Squeek. Many sites do that to get their user count up. I didn't find the article excessively paranoid, but then I am open to the idea that government and media and persons of power in general have their own agendas which seldom involve showing the public their hands.

@Eliaures: Looks like a very interesting book. Thanks. *extracts booklist and adds title*

Where there's smoke, there's mirrors.
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December 13th, 2007, 06:01
Squeek, RP has not touched that article or that site. but you want to turn off…understandable. best quote from RP," I endorse freedom, but not necessary what you do with your freedom".
Eli, it's one thing to follow one's principle, another thing to follow someone else's dictate. And don't pretend government is benevolent, if it's big enought to provide you with everything, it's powerful enough to take away everything. In addition, it's not econmically feasible in the long run. old USSRussia and China? or just look at our own SS or Medicare.

"A strong president, means having the strength to resist the temptation of taking all that power isn't yours" - Ron Paul

"If you think the problems we create are bad, just wait until you see our solutions",- Government
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December 13th, 2007, 06:22
i agree but at least the goverments goal is suppose to be helping the people even if it fails miserabley. but what's worse than a large and bloated beuracracy is a large company/corporation. a corporation has none of the incentives to help people but are primarly profit driven and have none of the accountabilities/ that government agencies have. this is the main reason why i will most always never favour republicans over democrats.
goverment=bacteria
corporation=virus
plenty of unhealty bactierias out there but many are good for you.
the question to ask though is a virus ever good for you?
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December 13th, 2007, 07:05
Somewhat agree, Virus=corporation+government=monopoly=corporatism= facism. Look at Department of Energy. In a true Free market economic, there can be consumer advocates not of government agency, Charity, Church hospitals(now replaced by County ones). Govenment can play an important role to ensure and protect Free Press/Speech to provide accurate feedback.
A bit off topic, always amazed by this Utube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dqibvh96Og So surreal yet REAL.

"A strong president, means having the strength to resist the temptation of taking all that power isn't yours" - Ron Paul

"If you think the problems we create are bad, just wait until you see our solutions",- Government
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December 13th, 2007, 13:44
Maybe I misunderstand what a "true" Free Market is, but it's my understanding that basically everything that can be privatized, is privatized. The Chicago school of economics folks got to try this in the South American governments we managed to overthrow and it was a disaster for those economies.

The problem with letting private industry run the organizations that are needed for infrastructure and the general well being, is that the bottom line is their religion. As we see in the HMO fiasco, not only are costs to the consumer high but service is poor and many people are just flat left out.

I just don't understand this grab for everything by corporate America. I grasp it from a pure greed standpoint, but if they'd just look at the long term, how can it be in their best interest? If they have all the money, the CEO's and board members with those huge bonuses and stock options, and the middle class is wiped out, who is going to be buying whatever product they have to sell?
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December 13th, 2007, 13:53
Libertarianism (in any of its guises) is just as whacked-out as Marxism. Both have enormous flaws in their theories, and both have been demonstrated empirically to be disastrous.

There are very good reasons why all successful and stable economies and states, without exception, have a system of politically regulated market economies and publicly maintained basic infrastructure.
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December 14th, 2007, 04:42
Before I saw the utube, I can never imagin that traffic can flow such as that without traffic lights or cops directing. Libertarianism, Marxism is a bit too broad/abstract topic. I would like to raise the topic of monetary system here in the states. The Fed, a private multi-national banking cartel has the monopoly on printing paper currency. This would never come into existance without co-op within the US government. It can lower or raise interest rates at its will, which has proven to be the cause of current collapse of subprime housing market. Money is the building block of every conceivable economic activity, and there is nothing more basic or more important. Yet gold emerges as a basic unit of currency in various regions/cultrues throughout the world WITHOUT any political/willful interference. My point is, beside the obvious political power, there are other forces at play…suck as supply and demand of the market. Next year, minimum wage is going up to $8/hr here thanks to some "generous" politicians thinking that they can just add value like passing a law.

a good book on Fed, The Creature from Jekyll Island: A Second Look at the Federal Reserve by G. Edward Griffin

"A strong president, means having the strength to resist the temptation of taking all that power isn't yours" - Ron Paul

"If you think the problems we create are bad, just wait until you see our solutions",- Government
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December 14th, 2007, 12:29
No offense, mudsling, but a lot of that was pure nonsense.

(1) Traffic: it certainly can flow without cops or traffic lights. I've driven in Lebanon a fair bit, and it's entirely possible. It's also much less efficient and much more dangerous than in a system that has traffic regulations, traffic lights, and cops enforcing them.

(2) If interest rates played into the sub-prime crisis, they were at most a peripheral factor. The real causes lay elsewhere.

(3) The gold standard looks good on paper at least if you're not at all clued in about economics, but there are very, very good reasons why it's no longer in use in *any* developed economy. It's like putting concrete tires on a car to prevent speeding — yeah, it works, but there are other ways to prevent or discourage speeding that work far better; they're just slightly more complicated.

IOW, any economy that would adopt the gold standard today would be severely handicapped when competing with economies that (a) don't and (b) do practice a responsible fiscal policy. Sort of like any driver in a car with concrete tires will be at a severe disadvantage compared to drivers with regular tires that also drive responsibly.

Demanding a gold standard is admitting defeat — that your country is no longer capable of driving responsibly and needs the concrete tires to prevent it from getting killed in a crash.
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December 14th, 2007, 12:48
Originally Posted by Prime Junta View Post
(1) Traffic: it certainly can flow without cops or traffic lights. I've driven in Lebanon a fair bit, and it's entirely possible. It's also much less efficient and much more dangerous than in a system that has traffic regulations, traffic lights, and cops enforcing them.
I have always loved that analogy … and think that it can be extended. A traffic system that is regulated by a highly researched automated flow system is much more efficient on a large scale than one regulated by a cop at an intersection who can only see a short distance. But that system needs the knowledge of having cops who regulate it to maintain compliance and honesty.

— Mike
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December 14th, 2007, 13:01
And even that can be automated. I got my first ever speeding ticket last summer. It was in France, and the entire process was completely automated. I got a ticket in the mail stating that I had been clocked driving 110 km/h (103 km/h after "technical margin") in a 100 km/h zone. I then surfed to the website in the ticket and paid the 47 euro fine with my credit card. No human interaction whatsoever.

It also worked. I am now super-careful at not exceeding the speed limit in France wherever there's a "Controle automatique" or "Controles de radar frequents" sign. Speed limits are a bit flexible there, but it seems those tags are the equivalent of [(we mean it!)]
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