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Default Fallout 3 - Preview @ Gameplayer

October 15th, 2007, 22:49
Originally Posted by KasperFauerby View Post
It's a waste of time to argue with "the true Fallout fans" - or at least that's my conclusion after reading post after post with their endless bickering and complaining about Fallout 3. They are never going to like *any* new game in the Fallout setting done by *any* developer (well, except for themselves obviously - they know *exactly* what would make a great Fallout game). It's a shame really. It could have been an interesting discussion, but as things are it's best to simply ignore them completely (IMO of course).
What complete and utter nonsense, what people dont like is the moronic way beth is going around things. Sure you can find quotes etc from back to VB days about how people didnt like xx or yy, but none ever claimed it was so far from the originals, that the ip might as well be dead.

What we are seeing today is something so remote from fallout that its not even fun, its a braindead filler for the shitbox kiddies and if you cant see it… well… then you are target audience aint you !
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October 16th, 2007, 00:04
Originally Posted by Morbus View Post
Both sides are isolated. Don't tire yourself trying to understand. I like some new games, for instance… StarCraft 2, probably Crysis, and already released like Gothic 3, Company of Heroes, STALKER, FEAR… of course I don't like ANY game unless Fallout, but that's a side thing, even if paradoxal… :sigh:

No, seriously, don't bother… As I said, both sides are isolated. I write about it, you complain about me writing, you write about it, I complain about you being stupid. As simple as that…

As for the sarcasm, I understand it was not apparent, but it was there.
Why would anyone care what you have to say, when you say it in the way you do? I won't even get into how hard it is to understand what you are trying to say.

You are an editor? wow.
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October 16th, 2007, 01:51
Originally Posted by rune_74 View Post
Why would anyone care what you have to say, when you say it in the way you do? I won't even get into how hard it is to understand what you are trying to say.

You are an editor? wow.
Why do you deny Morbus the right to state his own point of view? He has the same right to write about dumbing down Fallout 3 as you to praise Bethesda for making another game in the series. If you dont care what he says the dont comment on it.
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October 16th, 2007, 02:13
Well, being rather neutral towards the Fallout franchise, I like to believe I can see both sides of the coin.

I have a great intellectual respect for Fallout, because I recognize the great game that it was (and its sequel). However, I never personally cared for the setting, and so much of the potential enjoyment was lost upon me. This also means I don't have any emotional attachment, and that I'm relatively free when passing judgement.

However, I'm not neutral by any means when it comes to Bethesda, because I don't care for their games overall. It's supremely obvious to me that they're simply trying to be popular, and as a result, sell as many copies as they can without entirely abandoning their vision.

This might sound very harsh, and indeed I don't consider Oblivion (or most elderscrolls games) total artistic failures. In fact, I think they really believe in what they're doing. However, I can't look beyond how much is compromised for both technical and commercial reasons.

They've licensed some fine engines and they've done some amazing things with them, aesthetically. They took the Gamebryo engine, the Havok physics engine, the Speedtree engine, and did wonders with them. I won't deny that.

Also, times are different. When Fallout was made, a lot less was at stake commercially, because games were a LOT cheaper to produce, and as such fewer compromises were called for.

But to believe that Bethesda can be artistically true to Fallout and what it represents, is a total fantasy.

I'm sure they will do what they can within the constraints they're bound by, both technically (Xbox 360) and commercially (cost of production). But it won't be a game entirely true to the originals, and that is something I consider a pretty sad fact.
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October 16th, 2007, 02:23
Originally Posted by nessosin View Post
Why do you deny Morbus the right to state his own point of view? He has the same right to write about dumbing down Fallout 3 as you to praise Bethesda for making another game in the series. If you dont care what he says the dont comment on it.

How am I denying him his right…I could care less if he did or did not like it, it was teh way he went about it. Look back and see it was him lashing out at me that started this…not the other way around…I think I have even explained my stance without comming across as a condescending jerk.
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October 16th, 2007, 08:44
I think that English is a second language to Morbus, therefore perhaps he may not be coming across at times quite clearly, or how he means to be coming across. For instance, in the "technical problems" headline on his site, he (or a fellow non-native english speaker i guess) thanks readers "for their comprehension", twice. You dont thank people for comprehending you unless youre either falling down drunk, or a stranger in a strange land who doesnt know exactly what he's saying.

This reads to me like someone's result of translation software for the word "understanding", or search result, or something of that nature. He's also trying (as far as I can see) to be sarcastically or playfully funny and kidding at times in his posts, but this comes across harsher than I think he means it to. Just my opinion of course.

Or hell, maybe he's drunk!
Last edited by xSamhainx; October 16th, 2007 at 08:59.
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October 16th, 2007, 08:57
I agree, this went to far and I felt a bit bad about the more I read from him the more it became apparent he was not an english first language speaker. Oh well, over and done with.
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October 16th, 2007, 10:19
Originally Posted by The Watchman View Post
What complete and utter nonsense …. braindead filler for the shitbox kiddies ….
Ah - the "shitbox" guy chimes in! You're one angry man, aren't you? Are you ever happy about anything in this life? If so, your posts surely doesn't show it. I just read through them all for fun, and I didn't find one single post where you were positive about anything (well, one or two were borderline happy - but then you remembered to add one or two things to complain about anyway). Some fun statistics about your two most used words (sometimes used in combination)

"shitbox": 9/18 posts
"kiddie": 7/18 posts

Other favorites include "moron", "moronic", "retarded", "euro crap" and "mainstream junk".

To the rest of you guys - I'm sorry about feeding the trolls, but this guy is just too funny to pass by without comment
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October 16th, 2007, 14:29
Oh, I was just about to comment on the "shitbox" remark, but now you peaked my curiosity. I'm gonna read up on this guy.

As for Bethesda being unable to step up to the plate for the Fallout franchise, I don't know. Maybe I have not researched it as much as I should to come across as educated on the matter, but I do believe them to be capable of producing high quality and intellectually superior games. I don't want to get into that old "lowest common denominator" crap again, but as far as I'm concerned, I can't find a reason that the next Fallout release by Bethesda can't reach the same heights as the originals, except nostalgia. See, that will never come back, ever. At the same time, Fallout 3 might suck. It might also be a very fun game that doesn't really resemble Fallout 1/2. I'd just take it for what it is, it leaves one less stressful in the end.
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October 16th, 2007, 14:51
Originally Posted by rune_74 View Post
Why would anyone care what you have to say, when you say it in the way you do? I won't even get into how hard it is to understand what you are trying to say.
You are an editor? wow.
Oh, I'm sorry, did I say anything? Because I didn't meant to make any serious argument here… So I don't care if anyone care to read what I wrote here, because it wasn't meant to be anything interesting… I was talking to you.

And yes, I am an editor… Actually, I am *the* editor. But don't bother seeing if there's anything to it. There's not catch: I am the editor of a very big and influential gaming site.

Also, I don't need to talk here when posters like DArtagnan say it all how I think it is

Originally Posted by rune_74 View Post
How am I denying him his right…I could care less if he did or did not like it, it was teh way he went about it. Look back and see it was him lashing out at me that started this…not the other way around…I think I have even explained my stance without comming across as a condescending jerk.
You are right. I started it and I was being a jerk… Well, I'm a jerk for the most part… Not that I regret it, I just don't really care what you or anybody else thinks about me. Those who know me know how I am and how I think, there are also those who think they know me for some things I write… In the end, I don't really care. I started it, and I replied to your border-trolling with plain-clear-trolling. I won't apologize to you though, as you took it fullheartedly… I do apologize to those that didn't like my attitude, and didn't like me being a jerk. I'll try to refrain from being one in the future.

Originally Posted by xSamhainx View Post
I think that English is a second language to Morbus, therefore perhaps he may not be coming across at times quite clearly, or how he means to be coming across. For instance, in the "technical problems" headline on his site, he (or a fellow non-native english speaker i guess) thanks readers "for their comprehension", twice. You dont thank people for comprehending you unless youre either falling down drunk, or a stranger in a strange land who doesnt know exactly what he's saying.

This reads to me like someone's result of translation software for the word "understanding", or search result, or something of that nature. He's also trying (as far as I can see) to be sarcastically or playfully funny and kidding at times in his posts, but this comes across harsher than I think he means it to. Just my opinion of course.

Or hell, maybe he's drunk!
I don't use translation software, but yes, english is my second language… I'll correct that, thanks for pointing it out..

Originally Posted by rune_74 View Post
I agree, this went to far and I felt a bit bad about the more I read from him the more it became apparent he was not an english first language speaker. Oh well, over and done with.
rune, don't take it personally… We're still strangers

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Last edited by Morbus; October 16th, 2007 at 15:00.
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October 16th, 2007, 17:41
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
But to believe that Bethesda can be artistically true to Fallout and what it represents, is a total fantasy.
This pretty much summed up anything I could say about the whole Fallout/Beth argument other than Fallout was a game filled with interesting plots and I'm afraid that Beth will turn it into the sandboxes filled with cookie cutter NPCs and MMORPG type quests/main quest.

Originally Posted by Morbus View Post
I don't use translation software, but yes, english is my second language… I'll correct that, thanks for pointing it out..
This whole lost in translation argument was like so many I've had with my girlfriend because I took offense at something she said or she got upset at something I said and it turned out neither of us meant what the other thought. I think that this argument wasn't quite lost in translation.

Despite all my rage.
I'm still just a rat in a cage.
Last edited by skavenhorde; October 16th, 2007 at 17:56.
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October 16th, 2007, 22:16
Originally Posted by skavenhorde View Post
This whole lost in translation argument was like so many I've had with my girlfriend because I took offense at something she said or she got upset at something I said and it turned out neither of us meant what the other thought. I think that this argument wasn't quite lost in translation.
It wasn't me who brought that up…

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October 17th, 2007, 02:10
Originally Posted by Thaurin View Post
It might also be a very fun game that doesn't really resemble Fallout 1/2. I'd just take it for what it is, it leaves one less stressful in the end.
I should leave this thread alone because it isn't going anywhere…but, here goes.

This quote is actually the root of the problem (the quote, not you). For all sorts of things in life - books, movies, sports, religion, politics, fashion…games… - there are things people enjoy so much, they embrace as key experiences or even part of their identity. For everyone else, who cares? Most people have something, somewhere that fits this category for them but they have absolutely no sympathy for different views.

Ever seen a football [insert sport of choice] team that is being merged with another, and the old guernsey or team colours are being changed? They feel the team's history is being discarded. For fans of other teams (or even non-fans), they don't get the whole fuss - it's just a bunch of blokes running around a park, after all.

Or a million other examples. Outraged that Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings took some liberties with the text or that your favourite band has abandoned their roots to make mainstream pop or whatever. Somewhere, there is something you have been upset about because it is no longer what you want it to be.

If Bethsoft made a game called PostApoc: A Journey Into Oblivion, noone would care. Buying the Fallout license and calling their game "Fallout 3" means this game has a lineage that certain people want to be respected, and that means a good game that has little to do with Fallout doesn't cut it.

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October 17th, 2007, 03:53
Dhruin, I think this argument is made surprisingly well by SeanMike in this article, though he limits it to the fact that Fallout 3 shouldn't claim to be a direct sequel (it could claim to be a spin-off or new start, according to him). It's not that complicated that names make expectations, and that's Bethesda's own choice and burden, not anyone else's fault.

And hell yeah this thread is going nowhere, same reason I avoided it so far. But:

Originally Posted by Morbus View Post
And yes, I am an editor… Actually, I am *the* editor. But don't bother seeing if there's anything to it. There's not catch: I am the editor of a very big and influential gaming site.
Really? A very big and influential gaming site? Which one? Last time I checked on alexa, megascore.biz didn't register as a blip and your own tracker registers 5293 views. Be honest, Morbus.

And yeah, you're being pretty offensive, and like the others here I'm having an unusually hard time figuring out what you mean with some posts. I'm also not sure that your confrontational attitude is a very polite way of approaching people. This isn't NMA, y'know. Far be it for me to tell you how to behave, tho'.
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October 17th, 2007, 05:04
The way I see it, Bethesda really ought to be trying to please the hardcore Fallout fans more than anyone else. I mean, why not? It's their game the way a baseball team is their fans' team or a rock & roll band is their fans' band. It's their job to keep their fans happy.

Yeah, there's money involved, and that's important…it's valuable…yeah, yeah, yeah…mass market…SO WHAT? Bethesday has plenty of money already. Fans are fans.

If this game doesn't please Fallout's base of hardcore fans, then those fans ought to moan as loudly and as often as they want.
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October 17th, 2007, 10:07
Originally Posted by Squeek View Post
The way I see it, Bethesda really ought to be trying to please the hardcore Fallout fans more than anyone else. I mean, why not? It's their game the way a baseball team is their fans' team or a rock & roll band is their fans' band. It's their job to keep their fans happy.

Yeah, there's money involved, and that's important…it's valuable…yeah, yeah, yeah…mass market…SO WHAT? Bethesday has plenty of money already. Fans are fans.

If this game doesn't please Fallout's base of hardcore fans, then those fans ought to moan as loudly and as often as they want.
The problem I guess is that they think they do enough of that as it is. They consider themselves fans, and probably they are: second tier fans, like me, who remember the game fondly or became aware of it late based on its great reputation. The recent bethblog Q&A is a nice illustration of this. And I guess they are fans after a fashion, but they have nothing in common with the hardcore fanbase represented by NMA, the Codex, and many people here. To use Dhruin's analogy: It is like the difference between football fans that go to every match, have the full set of fan attire and regalia, and can name and cite the stats of every player from 1905 to the present to people who will always cheer for the team but watch the games on TV (if nothing else interferes), own maybe a single baseball cap in the team colors, and only know the name of the quarterback and the faces of a few other key players. But both consider themselves fans, and probably look askance at each others "culture".
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October 17th, 2007, 10:37
The way I see it, Bethesda really ought to be trying to please the hardcore Fallout fans more than anyone else. I mean, why not? It's their game the way a baseball team is their fans' team or a rock & roll band is their fans' band. It's their job to keep their fans happy.
The more hardcore the fan, the smaller the minority of which he is a part.

There is no business sense in catering to the minority, unless you can do it without displeasing the majority. This is the core of the problem, and the reason Bethesda will not, generally, favor the hardcore over the casual.

Yeah, there's money involved, and that's important…it's valuable…yeah, yeah, yeah…mass market…SO WHAT? Bethesday has plenty of money already. Fans are fans.
I'm sure fans are important to Bethesda, but I'm also confident that money is even more important to them. They're human beings like everyone else, so naturally, if they can both please fans and earn their money, they will do so. But if they feel they need to make a choice between alienating a few hardcore fans and losing a perceived significant amount of money, I'm of the opinion that they'll go for the money. I believe so, because that's my experience with human nature, and especially because of the traditional american values that seem to embrace the nature of capitalism regardless of how it's practiced, more than is the case with many other cultural norms, like those of my own place of birth.

However, people are not necessarily willing to see themselves in a negative light, and we all have an amazing ability to bend truths to make ourselves appear more appealing. So I don't think this is necessarily how they see what they're doing, and I certainly don't think it's the official company line.

If this game doesn't please Fallout's base of hardcore fans, then those fans ought to moan as loudly and as often as they want.
I'm pretty sure that will be the result, but small crowds are often overlooked. Especially in the world of gaming, because it's not yet of a significance the world in general cares about. With wars, hunger, natural disasters (Hollywood might qualify here), and so on, there is little interest in a few people obsessed with a video game franchise.
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October 17th, 2007, 13:16
Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
For all sorts of things in life - books, movies, sports, religion, politics, fashion…games… - there are things people enjoy so much, they embrace as key experiences or even part of their identity.
Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. I've long abandoned such uselessness, maybe not soon after I saw Fellowship of the Ring. I started to see it as a separate product from the books. Sure you have hopes and dreams for the transition to the silver screen, but it's a different medium and you can't control the outcome. People should stop trying to control every outcome.

I was pissed when Metallica started to abandon their roots and make crap music. Now, who cares? They drove their own creativity in the ground. Wait, now I sound bitter, don't I? Point is, I see what you mean, but in the end, it doesn't really matter. You shouldn't pin your identity down on the product of someone else.

The Fallout series has a lineage that a lot of people want to see respected, but that doesn't mean it has to. At least not in the way they perceive it. Bethesda may have a vision of their own, as Fallout fans of their own, that doesn't jibe with those old-school hardcore fans. They should just accept it instead of cursing the devs to Hell.

Originally Posted by Squeek View Post
The way I see it, Bethesda really ought to be trying to please the hardcore Fallout fans more than anyone else. I mean, why not? It's their game the way a baseball team is their fans' team or a rock & roll band is their fans' band. It's their job to keep their fans happy.
That's a very naive way of looking at things. You know how those rock 'n roll bands tell the crowd they are "the best audience they've ever had" in every town they play in? The fans might've put them there, but the time that they're allowed to play by the grace of them has long past if they're raking in the millions. You may be grateful for the rest of your life, but you don't have to let it control your bread-and-butter forever.

Live life for yourself. Bethesda's vision of it will be Bethesda's vision and they will probably be extremely proud of their work once it's finished. If they'd have made it for some other audience, not very much so. In turn, those fans have the freedom to hate the result, but be true to yourself and don't just hate it because it deviates from the original formula.

If this game doesn't please Fallout's base of hardcore fans, then those fans ought to moan as loudly and as often as they want.
Yeah, sure. It won't be very useful to do, though, as it will drain their energy and in the end it may or may not make any difference. It's just not a worthwhile life as a rabid fanboy, in my opinion.

Products come and go, the market is flooded. Don't drown in it.
Last edited by Thaurin; October 17th, 2007 at 13:27.
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October 17th, 2007, 13:26
I most definitely don't support some of the rhetoric and actions of some of the hardcore fans, but why should they accept it? Why not fight for their position?

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October 17th, 2007, 13:31
Originally Posted by Brother None View Post
Really? A very big and influential gaming site? Which one? Last time I checked on alexa, megascore.biz didn't register as a blip and your own tracker registers 5293 views. Be honest, Morbus.
Guess someone here failed his sarcasm check Seriously brother, did you think I'd be serious? You really don't know me…

Originally Posted by Brother None View Post
And yeah, you're being pretty offensive, and like the others here I'm having an unusually hard time figuring out what you mean with some posts. I'm also not sure that your confrontational attitude is a very polite way of approaching people. This isn't NMA, y'know. Far be it for me to tell you how to behave, tho'.
Don't worry Brother, I hear you.

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