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Default The Witchers Australian release

November 8th, 2007, 13:39
If people don't pay for the games they play, we (=RPG fans) will all be victims of this soon.
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November 8th, 2007, 14:10
You don't pay for making physical disc, box and map in the game. You're paying for devs & designers work, for their creativity, they didn't allow you to copy their work - so it is stealing.
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November 8th, 2007, 16:24
Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
Calling it something different is just trying to justify it by softening the terminology. So, since there are a few Australians in this thread - let's just call a spade a spade. We all agree that staggered international releases are a pain in the ass but we don't know the reason for delay. At any rate, your "protest" only sends one clear potential message: don't bother making PC RPGs. Lastly, you complain about more hassle but note the local price is significantly higher…I can't see anything easier than placing an online order and saving money.

Edit: Magerette, pirating now and paying for the bargain-bin version down the track is having your caking and eating it, too.
Very clearly stated Drhuin. I missed his point—I thought he meant buying it later when he could afford it at full price. I was trying to point out as well that many times being the first kid on the block to have the game isn't always an advantage, and in a month the delay might be unimportant. I'm sure there are other games available in Australia that could be played in the interim.

I had similar feelings toward THQ when they dropped patch support for the devs on the Titan Quest franchise as soon as the x-pack was released. Frequently we as gamers are ripped off and our money taken for inferior service by the big publishers. I don't see this as any excuse to steal from the developers, who are in the same boat we are.

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November 8th, 2007, 16:28
When you look at international releases, staggering dates is the NORM, not the exception. EU just got the best selling handheld pinball game ever - 'Metroid Prime Pinball' - more than 18 MONTHS after the US and Japan and the rest of the world. US still hasn't got the DS version of Anno 1701. There are countless examples.

Calling it 'bad service' and then pirating is … well, childish, frankly.

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November 8th, 2007, 16:32
I am glad to see you do feel bad about the mistake in judgement.

There is no good answer to getting these games faster other then going on the net and starting a gripe thread on as many sites as you can with a link to a main thread at the site.

I think all the reasons why we disagree with pirating have been stated so I will not repeat them.

Bart and Corwin should just admit that when it gets down to it, I will have the final say.
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November 8th, 2007, 17:31
Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
So let's follow that logic to a conclusion. Piracy isn't stealing. There's no victim. Why, then, should anyone pay for the game?
Probably because they want to support the developers (or, as in this case, have no problem with the publisher and wants to support the developers).

And my point wasn't that downloading a game is allways ok. My point was that if you're not going to buy the game (and waratah isn't going to buy The Witcher, because he's fed up with Atari) for one reason or another (that you're too cheap to spend money on it doesn't count) then I don't see why downloading is so extremely wrong, since the devs don't lose a single penny on it.

I can see why you want him to buy the game (and I agree, if no one buys the good RPG's that ARE put out these days the genre will die), what I can't see is why you think pirating the game is so much worse than simply not buying it.

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November 8th, 2007, 18:00
Originally Posted by Ubereil View Post
Probably because they want to support the developers (or, as in this case, have no problem with the publisher and wants to support the developers).

And my point wasn't that downloading a game is allways ok. My point was that if you're not going to buy the game (and waratah isn't going to buy The Witcher, because he's fed up with Atari) for one reason or another (that you're too cheap to spend money on it doesn't count) then I don't see why downloading is so extremely wrong, since the devs don't lose a single penny on it.

Übereil

There is so many things wrong with your line of thinking I don't know where to begin. Waratah did have a problem with the publisher not "have no problem with the publisher." In any event, by his and I'm guessing your line of thinking it's ok to support the dev but not the publisher? News flash, The dev and publisher are BOTH in the gaming industry and they BOTH need to make money or guess what they go bye bye (Business 101).

Secondly, You or Waratah do NOT have the right to play that game that people spent many hours, heck years making. It's a product, be it virtual or real it is still a product that costs money to make (A lot of money.) Your attitude of 'Hey he isn't going to buy it anyways so what is the harm.' Doesn't make sense because he is playing it. The rest of us understand that when you purchase a game you're both helping to support A. The dev B. The publisher C. The store that sold you the game. Wow that's just three businesses off the top of my head, not counting all the people that are employed at these businesses and are trying to make or sell you a product that you will enjoy.

It may not seem like a big deal if one person downloads a game for free but when you add it up it costs the gaming industry a ton of money because of these people want something for nothing. Well guess what there is always a price, someone has to pay for you. Like Dhruin said "is it only OK as long as my $78 is subsidising the development so you guys can rip it off?"

Basically stop fooling yourself, your a common shoplifter. Whether it is a real or virtual product your paying nothing for something people worked long hours to make for us.

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November 8th, 2007, 18:38
Originally Posted by waratah View Post
Hope you’ve never watched any of those pirated DVDs that are so prevalent in your country (or should I say province of China); it wouldn't do to be hypercritical.
I just had to add a little something to this nice and polite remark you made about Taiwan. Yes, Taiwan has a problem with pirates that is starting to get cleaned up a bit. I still see the guys standing outside the computer market with their folders hawking their illegal wares, but the gov is making great steps to cleaning it up. At least I no longer see 5 or 9 of them down the whole street, now there is only a few of them with skittish looking guys checking out for the cops.

As to the remark about HOPING I never watched a pirated DVD. Your damn right I never have. I go to blockbuster and rent them. If I like it then I go buy it from a local store that is also conviently located right next to the store that I buy my computer games at. (In case your a total moron I might need to explain something to you, in Taiwan there are actually stores that sell real NON PIRATED DVDs) Hey what do you know they actually sell real products over here in pirate land.

As to being rude well deal with it. I have seen thieves fleecing their wares over here for six years now and just now it's starting to look like the gov will once and for all be able to kick those bottom feeders out of the computer markets. Then I read your post about how 'fed up you are' and 'hey. I'm going to rebel' Well I'm fed up too with people like you who get these pirated games. The reasons behind your theft is irrelevant, the fact that your trying to disguise it under a banner of "THEY SUX" is commical. That just remains the reality of the situation. You want to play the game but you don't want to pay for it, so you pirate it which is stealing. So congradulations your a thief welcome to an unfortuantly large number of thieves in the world nowadays.

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I'm still just a rat in a cage.
Last edited by skavenhorde; November 8th, 2007 at 18:44.
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November 8th, 2007, 20:06
Originally Posted by skavenhorde View Post
There is so many things wrong with your line of thinking I don't know where to begin. Waratah did have a problem with the publisher not "have no problem with the publisher." In any event, by his and I'm guessing your line of thinking it's ok to support the dev but not the publisher? News flash, The dev and publisher are BOTH in the gaming industry and they BOTH need to make money or guess what they go bye bye (Business 101).
You missunderstood me, I think. I was giveing the reason why you SHOULD buy the game. I'm saying that if you like the product that's provided, then you should buy the game.

In this case, however, waratah thinks he's being treated poorly by the publisher. And it's not only this time, it's everytime this publisher releases a game. (You'd might argue that he's overreacting, and that he should buy the game despite this (I'd go for importing if I were waratah), but that's not my point.) Let's say the publisher uses child labour just to make sure everyone in here can agree that you should in fact boycott (and let it be notet that I don't talk about The Witcher published by Atari, I'm talking about any game published by any publisher). He therefore decides to boycott that very publisher from now on. He'll never buy a product published by that company again, ever.

Now, this publisher just published a game that's just great. Everybody's talking about it. Everybody's playing it. You WANT to play it, and normally you would have bought it. This would have meant that:

The devs get their reward for the work they put into the game, the publisher gets their reward for publishing it and bringing it to the public (and the gamestore gets their reward etc). Everybody's happy.

However, you won't buy the game, because the publisher's still useing child labour (how they can do this year in and year out has nothing to do with this discussion), and you simply refuse to support that. So, there are two options for you now:

a) You simply don't buy the game (and you don't pirate it). Here the devs don't get a single cent, the publisher don't get a single cent, no one else gets a single cent and you'll be unhappy because you won't be able to play the game.

b) You pirate the game. Here the devs still don't get a single cent, and neither does the publisher nor anyone else, just like with option a. However, you won't be unhappy because you get to play the game. (Alternatively you could borrow it from a friend once he was done with it, provideing the same result. I suspect most pepole have no problem with this sollution, even though the only difference between this and pirateing is that you have to wait in order to play the game.)

Now, I don't think I'm very far off when I say the big problem you have with pepole pirating games is that pirateing the game means the developer (and the publisher) doesn't get the reward it deserves. Now, the difference between not buying the game and pirateing the game is that if you pirate the game you get a game (for the devs it's indifferent, since they get nothing in both cases). So, if you're not going to buy the game (for one reason or another), then in what way do you offend the devs (and publishers etc) by downloading the game?

(About a year ago I got a bit intrested in playing an RTS again. I hadn't done so for a few years, and I weren't big on it back then either. But I wanted to try one again and started looking into what RTS'es there was on the market. I finally settled for Warhammer 40k - Dawn of War, and downloaded the demo (for Winter Assault). The demo was quite good, but I weren't sure wether the game was worth buying or not, so I decided to download it (I wouldn't have bought it based on the demo). After playing it for a while I came to realize that the game was in fact quite good, and I bought it (or, to be honest, I wished for it for Christmass, with expansions). Do you think downloading the game was wrong of me?)

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November 9th, 2007, 00:21
Originally Posted by skavenhorde View Post
I'm a bit lost. You say you stole the game and your troubled by the responses? You seem to think that the issue is about Atari's bad service. It's not, it's the fact that you like and want this game and instead of waiting or legally purchasing the game you stole it. I think we can all agree that the service is not top notch but what is the alternative? You could start your own corporation and make RPGs with great service or Atari could abandon RPGs altogether.
There is the third option. If enough people complain to Atari management they may eventually realise that they have a product(s) that isn't reaching its full commercial potential because of poor implementation on their behalf. The longer that every takes the attitude that we should just 'bend over and take it' the longer Atari will keep acting this way.
As I said previously, I don't think piracy is right and I'm not happy with the decision I've made. Unlike you though I refuse to bend over and allow Atari to treat me this way. How do things ever change unless people stand up for what they believe?
I haven't played the game yet and don't think I will now. Now everyone’s happy.
I'm curious to note though that nobody has commented on the concept that Atari itself is doing more to damage sales of RPGs through poor implementation than piracy ever will. Do we really want Atari to keep buying the rights to games (The witcher was well into production before Atari bought the English rights) and screwing up the release, completion, support etc. As you claimed previously they will absolutely not make the connection to their own inefficiencies for the reason why the games didn't sell so well. There are other publishers out there, maybe in the short term Atari needs to fail so one of the better publishers gets to take on the smaller indie RPGs. Short term desire vs long term gain.
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November 9th, 2007, 02:18
Atari's in deep trouble financially—as per this article on Gamespot. Whether their financial model is a success or not, they own the DnD license, so it will be interesting to see where this goes. I don't think your shovel is going to be the one that buries them, though. They've done a pretty good job on their own.

On a brighter note, CDProjekt thanks all who bought ttheir game and supported them, and offers upcoming free content for all registered users in their latest blurb at the official site:

I would like to thank fans for many warm words and many congratulations on numerous occasions. I would like also to thank everyone who, by buying The Witcher, has supported us.

The Witcher is our debut. I promise that we won’t rest on our laurels. I believe that The Witcher is just the beginning of CD Projekt making the highest quality games — games with soul and made with passion, games which are not only the result of market analysis and large marketing budgets.
Michał Kiciński,
Managing Director and Co-Founder of CD Projekt

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November 9th, 2007, 04:43
Originally Posted by Ubereil View Post
In this case, however, waratah thinks he's being treated poorly by the publisher.
Again, I appreciate that delayed international publishing is a pain in the ass - however, I think this is an overreaction. My own company will soon be introducing a new product that has some anticipation from our customers. We have delayed the introduction for a variety of internal business reasons, including our current inventory holding, cashflow projections and marketing considerations. At what point do we owe people an explanation that is based on our internal operations? I'm not saying this is Atari's reason - I don't know. But let's say it's as simple as Atari needs to run on strict inventory control (because of their financial situation) and they delayed the purchase until their open-to-buy reaches an appropriate level. Are they obliged to tell Joe Public "Sorry, we're broke so that has been delayed. Our inventory budget is $36Mm which normally equates to five stock turns per year but Dragonball Z flopped and we are currently 13.2% below our expectations"?

Now, this publisher just published a game that's just great. Everybody's talking about it. Everybody's playing it. You WANT to play it, and normally you would have bought it. This would have meant that:

The devs get their reward for the work they put into the game, the publisher gets their reward for publishing it and bringing it to the public (and the gamestore gets their reward etc). Everybody's happy.

However, you won't buy the game, because the publisher's still useing child labour (how they can do this year in and year out has nothing to do with this discussion), and you simply refuse to support that. So, there are two options for you now:

a) You simply don't buy the game (and you don't pirate it). Here the devs don't get a single cent, the publisher don't get a single cent, no one else gets a single cent and you'll be unhappy because you won't be able to play the game.

b) You pirate the game. Here the devs still don't get a single cent, and neither does the publisher nor anyone else, just like with option a. However, you won't be unhappy because you get to play the game. (Alternatively you could borrow it from a friend once he was done with it, provideing the same result. I suspect most pepole have no problem with this sollution, even though the only difference between this and pirateing is that you have to wait in order to play the game.)
So, you are appalled this company uses child labour but you simply can't live without their product (everyone is talking about, after all)? You don't see the twisted logic in that? And what's more - not only are you still going to use the product produced with child labour but you aren't even going to pay the slaves.

Now, I don't think I'm very far off when I say the big problem you have with pepole pirating games is that pirateing the game means the developer (and the publisher) doesn't get the reward it deserves. Now, the difference between not buying the game and pirateing the game is that if you pirate the game you get a game (for the devs it's indifferent, since they get nothing in both cases). So, if you're not going to buy the game (for one reason or another), then in what way do you offend the devs (and publishers etc) by downloading the game?
There is no decision to make when the choice is to simply copy it from the 'net for free (hell, why do any of us buy software ever?). Let's imagine a world where piracy didn't exist. Now he has to decide whether to buy it or go without (instead of buy it, versus get it for free anyway). Will he still go without? Maybe now he will buy it, because there is no other way. In other words, you can't judge how many pirates would or wouldn't have bought it, because the alternative is simply getting it for free without leaving your desk. Not a difficult choice for many people.

[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by waratah View Post
There is the third option. If enough people complain to Atari management they may eventually realise that they have a product(s) that isn't reaching its full commercial potential because of poor implementation on their behalf. The longer that every takes the attitude that we should just 'bend over and take it' the longer Atari will keep acting this way.
As I said previously, I don't think piracy is right and I'm not happy with the decision I've made. Unlike you though I refuse to bend over and allow Atari to treat me this way. How do things ever change unless people stand up for what they believe?
I haven't played the game yet and don't think I will now. Now everyone’s happy.
I'm curious to note though that nobody has commented on the concept that Atari itself is doing more to damage sales of RPGs through poor implementation than piracy ever will. Do we really want Atari to keep buying the rights to games (The witcher was well into production before Atari bought the English rights) and screwing up the release, completion, support etc. As you claimed previously they will absolutely not make the connection to their own inefficiencies for the reason why the games didn't sell so well. There are other publishers out there, maybe in the short term Atari needs to fail so one of the better publishers gets to take on the smaller indie RPGs. Short term desire vs long term gain.
You are painting a simplistic picture (which may be correct - we don't know). Why did CD Projekt choose Atari? A company everyone knows is broke? Is it possible noone else was interested? We can't separate Atari-who-delay-games from Atari-who's-money-made-it-possible.

A lot of gamers hate JoWood for their approach to Gothic but it must be remembered that their investment made the series possible.

Let's say you successfully destroy Atari. Do EA bring out more RPGs you like? No? How about Ubisoft? Not really? It's not so simple.

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November 9th, 2007, 05:13
Skavenhorde,
You're an abrasive fellow aren't you. Find it hard to make friends etc?
I suggest that you get over your national inferiority complex. I don't think anyone one on this forum thought that you couldn't buy legit DVDs in Taiwan, though I pity the DVD stores selling legit copies as it must be hard to compete with the pirated copies being sold close buy at a 10th of the price. I also find it hard to believe that you've never watched a pirated DVD I know I have. Not even at a friend’s house, in a restaurant, as a young man or because it never got released there (maybe it was a bit rude). Nobody is squeaky clean, and the more you claim to be the more I suspect that you’re not.
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November 9th, 2007, 11:56
I've never watched a pirated DVD, or VHS tape even! I know people who have such things of course; and voice my disapproval then go do something else should they choose that option.

From an article I read recently, the movie industry is starting to combat piracy in Taiwan and other areas by selling legit copies at about $3USD (near 3x). Still higher than pirated copies, but you need to make some profit, no matter how small. Or at least challenge those selling illegal copies.
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November 9th, 2007, 11:59
Whoa Waratah!! We don't allow personal attacks and especially racist attacks on this forum; especially forums I moderate!! I have a lot of Asian friends and friends who live in many countries around the world. RESPECT everyone and their country, PLEASE!!

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November 9th, 2007, 14:25
Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
Again, I appreciate that delayed international publishing is a pain in the ass - however, I think this is an overreaction. My own company will soon be introducing a new product that has some anticipation from our customers. We have delayed the introduction for a variety of internal business reasons, including our current inventory holding, cashflow projections and marketing considerations. At what point do we owe people an explanation that is based on our internal operations? I'm not saying this is Atari's reason - I don't know. But let's say it's as simple as Atari needs to run on strict inventory control (because of their financial situation) and they delayed the purchase until their open-to-buy reaches an appropriate level. Are they obliged to tell Joe Public "Sorry, we're broke so that has been delayed. Our inventory budget is $36Mm which normally equates to five stock turns per year but Dragonball Z flopped and we are currently 13.2% below our expectations"?
As I said, I'm not arguing about waratah's reasons not to buy the game. I'm just arguing from the point that he's not going to buy it, illegal download or no illegal download.

So, you are appalled this company uses child labour but you simply can't live without their product (everyone is talking about, after all)? You don't see the twisted logic in that? And what's more - not only are you still going to use the product produced with child labour but you aren't even going to pay the slaves.
By paying the slaves you have to pay the company that "hires" them, and so by paying the slaves you say that child labour is ok (and I might be jumping to conclusions, but I don't think you do).

Now, just because you don't think child labour is ok doesn't mean you dislike the product in itself. As an example: pick your favorite article of clothing. If you didn't make sure that it was "justice labeled" (as in no pollution used in the makeing of the article of clothing etc) then child labour was prolly used in the makeing of that article of clothing. Does that mean you throughout hate that article of clothing? Since it's your favorite article of clothing, I'm pretty sure you don't.

Now, you have a choice (or you had a choice when you were standing in the store with the article of clothing in your hands and were considering buying it): you can either choose to buy the article of clothing (and support child labour) or you can choose not to buy the article of clothing. If you had been confronted with this fact (most pepole don't think about the fact that most "mainstream" clothes today were "built" (can't think of the right word for the moment ) useing child labour, dangerous chemicals that pollutes the groundwater etc. They just look at the clothing and the price) that child labour was most likely used in the creation of that article of clothing (I should just have said it was a jacket ), would you have bought it? I wouldn't have bought it. My parents wouldn't have bought it. I don't think any of my friends would have bought it. In short, I'm pretty sure that article of clothing wouldn't sell very well if everyone knew child labour had been used to "build it".

This doesn't mean the article of clothing in itself is worse than other examples of that kind of articles of clothing (why didn't I say it was a jacket, why? ). It's probablly warmer/cooler/better looking/more comfortable etc than other clothes. So, if it weren't for the fact that child labour (and other things) were probablly used in the creation of the article of clothing, you'd buy it.

Now, since you're not going to buy it, if you could find a copy of it that didn't use child labour (or toxic dumping etc), then you would buy it, wouldn't you? Especially if you found it for free…

(With clothes it's gets a more complicated, because if you oppose child labour etc you should probably support the "justice" clothing movement (the companies that works non-profit to bring the pepole an alternative to clothes that uses child labour etc) by buying their products. And not only that, you should probablly wear these products in public to show pepole that you don't have to buy non-justice clothes. This can probablly apply to games too (you should probablly buy some other game than the Witcher, one that's not published by Atari), but as long as we're merely talking about one game my argument stands strong…)

There is no decision to make when the choice is to simply copy it from the 'net for free (hell, why do any of us buy software ever?).
You know the answer, I know the answer. Besides, I've allready replied.

Let's imagine a world where piracy didn't exist. Now he has to decide whether to buy it or go without (instead of buy it, versus get it for free anyway). Will he still go without? Maybe now he will buy it, because there is no other way. In other words, you can't judge how many pirates would or wouldn't have bought it, because the alternative is simply getting it for free without leaving your desk. Not a difficult choice for many people.
And this is the prime example of where piracing is not only wrong, but allso stupid (since it backfires due to smaller budgets for the companies). I'm not arguing about this, because we agree that simply getting it for free instead of buying it is wrong.

My point of arguing is that if you wouldn't buy it in a hypothetical world without pirating, then there's nothing wrong with you downloading it, because the devs (or publishers etc) doesn't lose any sales on it.

And I know a lot of pepole claim to be category B pepole (I wouldn't have bought it anyway) while being category A pepole (a free game! Yay!), and I don't approve to that either, because that's hypocrisy (and I HATE hypocrisy). But that doesn't mean category B pepole doesn't exist (I claim to be one of them, for example).

You are painting a simplistic picture (which may be correct - we don't know). Why did CD Projekt choose Atari? A company everyone knows is broke? Is it possible noone else was interested? We can't separate Atari-who-delay-games from Atari-who's-money-made-it-possible.

A lot of gamers hate JoWood for their approach to Gothic but it must be remembered that their investment made the series possible.

Let's say you successfully destroy Atari. Do EA bring out more RPGs you like? No? How about Ubisoft? Not really? It's not so simple.
I don't know, and therefore I'm not speculateing in it. I'm not even arguing about why waratah boycotts Atari (I do, however, think he has a point in his dislike for Atari), I'm just accepting that he does and arguing from that point of view.

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November 9th, 2007, 14:47
I guess I have just never understood the 'it isn't stealing since I wasn't going to buy it' argument. The bottom line is, if you have put in 8-10 hours for a shooter or 60+ hours on an RPG, you had to have *some* interest, so it *is* a net loss, and therefore you are taking what is not yours.

The only way I could see that argument is if I downloaded a PS2 or XBOX game … since I have neither system and therefore could never play them.

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November 9th, 2007, 14:51
But usually (in p2p) you can't download something without simultanously letting others download it from you - so you'd risk making the file available to someone with less honourable intentions ;-)
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November 9th, 2007, 16:08
Originally Posted by Elwro View Post
But usually (in p2p) you can't download something without simultanously letting others download it from you - so you'd risk making the file available to someone with less honourable intentions ;-)
Apparently I have revealed my lack of indepth knowledge of such things

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November 9th, 2007, 16:26
Originally Posted by Elwro View Post
But usually (in p2p) you can't download something without simultanously letting others download it from you - so you'd risk making the file available to someone with less honourable intentions ;-)
One way of dealing is the naive way (which I mentioned earlier): you don't acually KNOW that they're simply ripping the devs (and publishers etc) off. For all you know, they might be just as justified (if you can call it that) as you to download the game. And that some pepole exploits the system doesn't mean it's all wrong (even though, in it's current form, there's prolly more who are exploiting it than pepole who use it for the right reasons).

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