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November 9th, 2007, 16:34
All pirating is stealing. You're depriving the owner of the IP to their right to decide what happens with it. If you don't like the way the publisher handles their property, that does not give you the right to steal it. They have the right to release the game, or not, when they want to. If you don't like it, don't buy it. If you feel like you have to play it anyway, then you have to decide if it's worth it to you to pay for it anyway.

Why is it that the only people you ever hear offering these morally-bankrupt fallacious rationalisations for stealing are the people it? The world doesn't owe you computer games, if someone chooses to offer you one, you can buy it, or not.
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November 9th, 2007, 17:10
Originally Posted by waratah View Post
Skavenhorde,
You're an abrasive fellow aren't you. Find it hard to make friends etc?
I suggest that you get over your national inferiority complex. I don't think anyone one on this forum thought that you couldn't buy legit DVDs in Taiwan, though I pity the DVD stores selling legit copies as it must be hard to compete with the pirated copies being sold close buy at a 10th of the price. I also find it hard to believe that you've never watched a pirated DVD I know I have. Not even at a friend’s house, in a restaurant, as a young man or because it never got released there (maybe it was a bit rude). Nobody is squeaky clean, and the more you claim to be the more I suspect that you’re not.
For your first statement about being abrasive, well sorry about that but, yes, I can be passionate about something that I care deeply about and get upset when I see people try to delude themselves into thinking that stealing is good (if done under the right circumstances.) I've heard this argument time and time again and in the end you guys miss the whole point.

As for the remark about "MY" national inferiorty complex. HA, I mean that really made me laugh out loud. Before you try to insult someone make sure you know who they are because dude I'm American and the last time I checked Americans don't really have a national inferiority complex and just to point out something Taiwanese don't have a national inferiority complex either. They are PROUD of their country and it's stand against the powers that be. Now they are REAL protestors. I wanted to make sure what you said sounded as lame as I thought so I asked my girlfriend (Who is Taiwanese) and after she got off the floor from laughing her butt off, she offers this advice: Go to China and talk to the government there, they can advise you on some very colorful language when insulting someone from Taiwan.

It's great how you stereotyped all of Taiwan into pirate land. I don't really blame you though, your just ignorant of Asia as a whole because if you weren't you would realize that Taiwan and Hong Kong are trying to clean up their image. It's slow like I said before but I do see it happening and I couldn't be happier. At least I don't have to walk past a dozen of those slimeballs at the computer market. Now I just walk past a couple.

I love how your trying to switch topics from how you downloaded a game you like but won't buy, to if I watched a pirated DVD or not. Have you thought about politics, I think the president needs some new writers.

Back to the topic

If it helps I'm sorry about being abrasive before and now, but come on man wake up and smell the copyright protections or the donglekey CDs or companies that are afraid to deal with the Asia market due to all the piracy or the shifty gangster wannabees selling their illegal junk right next to a legitimate store who is trying to make a living or higher prices etc…. If you don't want to buy anything from Atari fine then don't buy it, but sure as hell don't steal it becuase you just crossed the line from protesting to theft.

I know I'm not as eloquant in my writing as Dhruin or the others, but you just hit a nerve with me because piracy is a big deal over here and I see it every single time I go to my favorite stores. On that note it has become tiresome trying to convince you that stealing is wrong. It's like trying to teach a 2 year old astrophysics. So have fun playing Witcher, I wish you would buy it but if wishes and buts were candies and nuts we all would have a grand time I know I will have fun because my copy gets here tomorrow along with Hellgate See you can even order two games at the same time

Despite all my rage.
I'm still just a rat in a cage.
Last edited by skavenhorde; November 10th, 2007 at 05:14.
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November 9th, 2007, 19:12
Originally Posted by Badesumofu View Post
All pirating is stealing.
That doesn't mean all pirating is wrong.

Was it wrong of me to download Dawn of War? If I hadn't done so Relic (or IC+ or anyone else for that matter) would have gotten a single cent extra for their work.

@Skavenhorde: He's not playing the game. Now, how much did CD project earn on that?

And it's not pepole like Waratah who brings copy protection and higher prices. That's brought by the idiots who just downloads the game without considering the concequences. Since Waratah still hasn't bought the game (even though he's not playing his pirated copy), then IMO he'd might as well play his pirated copy. CD project doesn't lose anything if he does (they would if he'd downloaded it even though he wasn't boycotting Atari).

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November 10th, 2007, 04:06
Um what? It's clear that Waratah is going to make sure he plays this game one way or another. If he hadn't been able to pirate it, he would probably have gone out to his local EB on the 14th and bought it. Or if he'd been thinking ahead like Dhruin (with whom I agree with entirely on this subject) and me, he'd have ordered it from GAME and gotten it about a week ago. The aim of copy protection is to prevent pirating so that people in that group will pay for the game. He is, unless he ends up buying it anyway (which I believe he is morally bound to do now) precisely the kind of person who brings us shit like Securom and Starforce.

Yes, it was wrong of you to download Dawn of War. You deprived Relic of their right to control their own creation. Without the ability to exert that controll, it is impossible to make money from something liek a game/piece of music/piece of writing. It's selfish behaviour that is typical of spoiled, ignorant brats who haven't themselves created anything of any worth. Note that I'm not saying that that's what you are, as that would be a personal attack
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November 10th, 2007, 11:09
Hey mate, what part of Oz do you inhabit?

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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November 10th, 2007, 15:50
Originally Posted by Ubereil View Post
Was it wrong of me to download Dawn of War? If I hadn't done so Relic (or IC+ or anyone else for that matter) would have gotten a single cent extra for their work.
The 'pirating as demo' is another wonderful excuse. However, what do you honestly think the 'paid for it' to 'just pirated' ratio is even in people who claim that as their approach? 0.1%? Less? more? I seriously doubt it breaks 1% … because then people figure, I already played, why pay when I won't replay. And then it is piracy with an excuse, and honest folks who actually pay to play and never pirate get draconian hoops due to self-proclaimed 'honest pirates'.

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November 10th, 2007, 17:39
Originally Posted by Badesumofu View Post
Um what? It's clear that Waratah is going to make sure he plays this game one way or another. If he hadn't been able to pirate it, he would probably have gone out to his local EB on the 14th and bought it.
Originally Posted by waratah View Post
I haven't played the game yet and don't think I will now. Now everyone’s happy.
It's clear as water that Waratah is one of the bad guys, yes…

Originally Posted by Badesumofu View Post
Yes, it was wrong of you to download Dawn of War. You deprived Relic of their right to control their own creation.
And this is our key disagreement. You think the important thing is that I violated the dev's (and publisher's) right to decide over their product, I think the important thing is wether they get the money they deserve for their product or not (which is what my oppinions on pirating in general is based on by the way).

Originally Posted by Badesumofu View Post
Without the ability to exert that controll, it is impossible to make money from something liek a game/piece of music/piece of writing.
Radiohead makes money from their latest album (well, I don't know if the costs is bigger than the income since I don't know the cost), despite giveing it away for free, so it IS possible to make money despite pirating. (And besides, if it's impossible to make money without that ability (and today it's really, really frail since it's allmost impossible to get punished for pirateing), then howcome pepole are still makeing money from it?)

And that is with the world as it looks today. In general, there are two kinds of pepole: pepole who care and pepole who don't care. Now, we probablly can't get the pepole who don't care to care enought to stop downloading. But if we could move towards a culture where you don't think so much about wether downloading is right or not and more towards a culture where you download everything and then reward the things you like and delete the rest (you'd might even manage to automatise this in computers), then I'm sure we'd get most (or way more at least) pepole to pay for their products (exept for the products they don't like).

Now, I know this isn't magically going to take away the problem with pirating. But with morale like this we'd get the pepole who's fooling themselves that what they're doing doesn't hurt the gameing industry. If we could get these guys to pay for their games (I don't think they'll buy into the "pirateing is stealing so don't do it" thing, right or not. I know I wouldn't. ), then the gameing industry would gain from it, and from my pow that's never a bad thing.

The most common argument for pirating (used by pirates to justify their actions) is the following: by downloading your products before deciding to buy them you can pick out the good from the bad products. Take Oblivion, for example. Without pirating you would have been able to buy the game in order to find out wether it was good or not. Since there was no demo you would have had to go on all the reviews and on what Bethsoft said about the game. And (if what the "Let's Rave and Rant about Oblivion" thread is correct. Might not be the best source , but I hope you'll get my point) the reviews were usually overpositive to say the least, and a lot of the things Bethsoft said was if not lies then at least exaggerated (radiant AI is supposed to be the shining example of this). So, in a world where pirating doesn't exist, you would have to base your oppinion on wether to buy Oblivion or not on hyped reviews and lies from Bethsoft. And that isn't good for gamers, no matter if piracy is wrong or not. Now, if everyone went by my model then this wouldn't really be possible (them fooling pepole into buying it, I mean). In other words, this would shift the focus from the player to the devs. The devs would have to do it right before they get their money (now it's the other way around, the player have to do it right (pay money) before they get to play the game). It would be a buyers market more than a sellers market (which benefits the buyers, who are more than the sellers). And besides that, this would reward devs who creates good games, and not devs who creates decent games and tries to compensate by hypeing it.

I know I'm biased, but I think this is a good rule (it benefits the gamers without takeing too much from the devs (exept their possibility to cheat their customers, which I won't shred many tears over them loseing)), as long as it is applied correctly. Something an awfull lot of pepole have a problem with (applying it correctly, that is).

Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
The 'pirating as demo' is another wonderful excuse. However, what do you honestly think the 'paid for it' to 'just pirated' ratio is even in people who claim that as their approach? 0.1%? Less? more? I seriously doubt it breaks 1% … because then people figure, I already played, why pay when I won't replay. And then it is piracy with an excuse, and honest folks who actually pay to play and never pirate get draconian hoops due to self-proclaimed 'honest pirates'.
Agreed. But that doesn't mean the argument in itself is wrong, the problem is when they use it as an exuse. And IMO we should try and get them to realize that they're lying to themselves when they download it as a demo, and then keeps playing (and enjoying) the game without buying it, and that what they're doing isn't determining wether the game is worth buying or not, it's something that's allmost (but not exactly) stealing.

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November 18th, 2007, 07:59
"But if we could move towards a culture where you don't think so much about wether downloading is right or not and more towards a culture where you download everything and then reward the things you like and delete the rest"
Ive seen the light!! *pounces around crazy tiger all happy w/ his new philosophy*
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November 18th, 2007, 09:32
sorry unless you're stealing to feed your family any justification made for stealing may sound like a good reason and may hurt no one but it doesn't excuse you from being a thief. it only shows that morals/honour have suffered a bit of thievery themselves from greeds five hungry fingers.

robin hood still boned (pardon the vulgarity) maid marion, so he was hardly doing his work 'pro bono' as she probably had a thing for bad boys and probably would have ignored him had he stood in line at the soup kitchen ladling out soup or doing all sorts of other things that don't require breaking the law.

edit:
i have this to say as well. part of the problem that effects pirating amongst other things is the fast tract of media creations into the hands of consumers. movies are out for a few weeks and then in a few months the dvd is out. games also also aren't in the collective mind as long before another game is the 'it' game. this really has gotten much worse just in the past decade. but go back really far and try to appreciate how many years some concerts or books were out before people either heard them or go the chance to read/see them. this fasttrack approach not only affects are desire to have all these media marvels so so after release, and more of them, but gives them an expiration date almost which may drive some to get their hands on them no matter the cost (to themselves in the case of dedicated fans who import and to others in the case of the selfish thief). this argument could also work for demos as true it sucks when games like oblivion don't have demos that because of their renown 'urged' many like myself to buy them when i wouldn't have had i been able to play a demo. i could have waited a bit longer and spent more time searching for decent reviews. but i was suckered and that goes with consuming and even if i had to do it over i wouldn't 'pirate demo' the game just to try it out. but you know what that's life, and a lesson, and bethesda hasn't gotten a penny from me since and even if i do buy fallout 3 eventually i'll be waiting very long for it to drop in price.
Last edited by curiously undead; November 18th, 2007 at 09:53.
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November 18th, 2007, 12:22
I think it's impossible to reach an agreement about piracy of games, so let me just say that I'm also against piracy and that I don't buy the arguments given in this thread to justify it - especially the "wouldn't have bought it anyway" argument. For me "wouldn't have bought it" should go hand in hand with "wouldn't have played it". For example, I'm not interested in sports games, so I would never buy a title like "Tony Hawk" or "Fifa". On the other hand I have no interest in playing those games, so I have no reason to download them either.

Anyway, what I really wanted to comment on is your proposed solution about downloading and playing it now, and then buying a budget release in a couple of years. First of all I doubt that you would actually do that - even if you really intend to do so now. But lets for a moment assume that that was really what you did.

You say your problem lies with Atari and not the developer. But ironically your proposed solution actually only supports Atari as I see it!! The devs are extremely dependent on the amount of sold units *at full price*!! There is always a fixed cost that goes to manufacturing, shipping and the shops - and you can be sure those links in the chain that has to do with these things will make sure their costs are covered. Then the publisher will want their bite of the cake - and finally, and the very end of the chain, some small amount will go to the devs. For budget releases this amount is often so ridiculous that it doesn't mean anything to the devs in practice. This is assuming they are still in the business also! It is so extremely expensive to develop a game and you have to sell *a lot* of units at full price to just break even. Furthermore a game dev runs by a business model that is typically very risky (especially for small devs). In a fiscal year you don't always have some income and some expenses. Instead you run a number of years with only expenses (big nasty red numbers), with the expectation of a rather huge income immediately when a game is released. If that income doesn't come, or is delayed, you might easily go out of business!

So the bottom line is - if you want to support a developer, and especially a small one that does niche products like RPGs for PCs, then you *have* to support them by buying their games at full price and at release. Yes, their publisher will also make more money this way - but the small devs depend on it to stay alive!

In this case you were so hyped about a release that you couldn't wait a few weeks for it - to me this sounds like you should go out and support the dev by buing their game as soon as it comes out!

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November 18th, 2007, 12:41
Originally Posted by KasperFauerby View Post
I think it's impossible to reach an agreement about piracy of games, so let me just say that I'm also against piracy and that I don't buy the arguments given in this thread to justify it - especially the "wouldn't have bought it anyway" argument. For me "wouldn't have bought it" should go hand in hand with "wouldn't have played it". For example, I'm not interested in sports games, so I would never buy a title like "Tony Hawk" or "Fifa". On the other hand I have no interest in playing those games, so I have no reason to download them either.
So you buy every single game you're interested in?

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November 18th, 2007, 13:14
I'm interested in more games than I have time to play, but I buy all the games I do play, yes. Demos can help also…
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November 18th, 2007, 15:48
But it the demos doesn't help, and you're still in (serious) doubt about the game?

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November 18th, 2007, 16:25
Originally Posted by Ubereil View Post
But it the demos doesn't help, and you're still in (serious) doubt about the game?

Übereil
If I've actually played the demo and still is in serious doubt then I would probably skip the game. Or take the chance and buy it anyway… I guess it also depends on whether or not it's a full priced title. I very often take chances with budget releases actually. And RPGs I usually just buy They rarely disappoint me..

Looking over my rather extensive game collection there are only a few titles that I truely regret buying, but there are some titles that disappointed me somewhat. Recent titles that I've bought that falls into these categories are "Resident Evil 4" and "Medal of Honor: Airborne", where in the case of RE4 I doubt I'll finish it and regarding MoH:A - well, I just find it somewhat boring. On the other hand I was pleasantly surprised about CoD4 (which I just finished today actually). I almost cancelled my pre-order on that one after playing the first part of MoH
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November 18th, 2007, 16:32
Ubereil, can't you see the riduculous justification process. it would be liking telling a woman- -"i need to sleep with you before we date to find out if i enjoy having sex with you"—thankfully most people understand you can't 'pirate' a person, and those who do end up incarcerated.

why not tell the ticket attendent at a movie theatre you are unsatisfied with the movie trailers and need to "experience some more of the movie" to know if you will like it.

if we lived in a society that wasn't based on monetary compensation for products and work than yes 'trying things out' would be acceptable and you'd get the chance to try more things but sadly we don't. the internet is a powerful and easy tool, and why it is so causually abused. even know as i sit here and ponder my next line, i certainly wouldn't waste the time in this discussion, but i'm barely awake, haven't showered yet, and can still spout of my apparent expertise with little risk and not much effort.

your downloading of the game may have no effect on the developer and publisher, but it does help to destroy the idea of peoples labours being rewarded through the support of compensation. even if a developer only gets a dollar from a game you buy it still 'says' something. not paying for it is like having your grandmother give you a gift and you stiffing her by not spending the small amount of money and time to send her a thank you card. grandmas love them, just like game developers like to have people buy there games. stop sending grandma thank yous and you may not see a gift next year or at least less of one. stop buying games and more and more developers close their doors.
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November 18th, 2007, 19:00
Originally Posted by curiously undead View Post
Ubereil, can't you see the riduculous justification process. it would be liking telling a woman- -"i need to sleep with you before we date to find out if i enjoy having sex with you"—
Acually, it would be like makeing a clone of the woman, a clone that doesn't really feel anything and who therefore won't get hurt by you haveing sex with her.

your downloading of the game may have no effect on the developer and publisher, but it does help to destroy the idea of peoples labours being rewarded through the support of compensation.
I disagree. It's not paying for games you like that destroys the idea of peoples labours being rewarded through the support of compensation, not downloading them. If you buy games you like/play, then the devs doesn't really lose anything on you downloading the games first. They'll get their money eventually.

even if a developer only gets a dollar from a game you buy it still 'says' something. not paying for it is like having your grandmother give you a gift and you stiffing her by not spending the small amount of money and time to send her a thank you card. grandmas love them, just like game developers like to have people buy there games. stop sending grandma thank yous and you may not see a gift next year or at least less of one. stop buying games and more and more developers close their doors.
I agree. In normal cases I think you should allways buy the game. It's the bordercases where you're not sure (or, as in Waratah's case, where there's no way he's buying the game no matter what) you can apply my filosofy of pirateing. Because it's there the devs have (allmost) nothing to lose on you pirateing (or more to win, unless they're like Bethsoft and lie about their products so they appear better than they acually are… In which case I feel they should be punished for their dishonesty. Or at least I feel it shouldn't be possible).

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November 18th, 2007, 19:02
Oh quit being such a bunch of old ladies!

Someone bust out a link to Crysis already! I'm dying to try that one!

*sits n types furiously, screen keeps flashing big blinking ACCESS DENIED*
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November 18th, 2007, 21:13
Originally Posted by Ubereil View Post
(You'd might argue that he's overreacting, and that he should buy the game despite this (I'd go for importing if I were waratah), but that's not my point.)
Double parenthesis. You should become a mathematician.

To the thread subject: There is a way to support the devs and also send a message to Atari. Order the Polish version straight from the source, bypassing Atari.If a lot of people were to do this, Atari would think twice next time before deciding upon censoring nudity, butchering the dialogues, taking content off the limited edition and not distributing. Not to mention that the way things are right now, I have the feeling that the Polish version will actually prove useful sooner rather than later. Also I read somewhere that Australia gets the censored US version, can anyone confirm this?

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November 18th, 2007, 21:39
Hmmmmmm. I decided to wait a while before getting The Witcher, figuring it may be a game that gets better with age. So I haven't kept up with everything that's been said about it. Has it really gotten to the point where customers might be better off buying the Polish version?
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November 18th, 2007, 22:05
When the full English subs get modded in, Polish version will be definitely the way to go, simply because of its superior voice acting and uncut content.

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