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Default Deus Ex - Third Game in Series Announced

November 27th, 2007, 14:40
Most of the bad things about Bioshock can be attributed to the constraints of the console format. Not so much in a technical sense, but in how the developers perceive the audience - which I'm not personally convinced is the correct perception.

Sure, some people who play console games prefer that there is a low level of challenge, and they'd rather have explosions than depth in the gameplay, but is it really the general attitude? I can't be sure, as I haven't conducted any significant research into the matter. But my gut feeling tells me that there is a significant part of the console audience that would like Bioshock more, even if it was half-way challenging and had more in the way of RPG features.

Regarding the travesty called Deus Ex: Invisible War, that game was destroyed by a combination of severe technical limitations AND the questionable decision to dumb down the game to fit its new audience. Removal of skills, universal ammo, overly simplified (and horrible) inventory, tiny levels, and so on.

In both cases Microsoft were heavily involved, specifically because of their desire to bring important titles to their Xbox consoles. This tells me that the reality is likely a big fat sack of cash bursting in the hands of MS to blind developers into sacrificing creative integrity for money.

An old and all too familiar tale.
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November 27th, 2007, 15:08
I'm cautiously optimistic. I loved DX and am apparently in the minority for enjoying DX2. No, the sequel was no Deus Ex but it wasn't at all a bad cyberpunk-themed shooter.
What I hope they bring back for DX3 is the skill system, the original biomod system and weapon-specific ammo.
What made DX work was the large skill system and game world in which you could go pretty much anywhere you wanted. Adding those two factors together provided a very open-ended approach to how the game was played. Bring those elements back with a good setting and story and I'm in. Hopefully by 2009 I'll have a better computer

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November 27th, 2007, 15:24
There were some advantages in the updated Biomod system in IW and I liked the ending of Prue Democracy, which was based on the early Greek, True Democracy, iirc.

Iirc, I heard eidos is working on a Secret Agent style mmog which will allow buying/purchasing of different upgrades for skills/mods based on each mission, so I would like to think they will keep to some degree/variation of the less restrictive Biomod system in IW than the once shot for the whole game, as the original DX.

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November 27th, 2007, 15:31
Deus Ex is still on my to do list.
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November 27th, 2007, 15:32
Originally Posted by Acleacius View Post
We can solve this real quick, what's your definition of an outside producer then?

There's no need for me to give you the definition of an "outside producer", because that's not what he was.


Originally Posted by Acleacius View Post
Any chance you would be willing to point me to a single article that's at least half way creditable which gives him credit as you say "main contributors"?
I am not sure many producers are credited with creating worlds, they are typically the Company Face and Money Men, but I will be glad to see your definition and at least semi creditable (meaning NOT opinion pieces) links.

Not necessary. Whatever your definition of "contributor" may be, or how it differs from mine, does not interest me in the least, you're welcome to believe whatever you like.

If you honestly believe that a game's producer is not a main contributor then there's not much I can do to change your mind, nor do I care enough to even try.



Originally Posted by Acleacius View Post
In the past, here at the RPGWatch I have even posted wspector's resume and not even he takes credit for the things you give him credit for.
Really? I would be interested in seeing where he says he wasn't the producer for System Shock.
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November 27th, 2007, 15:45
I'd be interested to know how many of you that hate DX2 with a passion played more than 2 levels?

I have to admit I hated it when it came out and only played the demo. Then only about 6 months ago I was bored and DX2 was on Steam. So I gave it a shot and you know what, I had a bunch of fun. That surprised me.

The game isn't like the original, playing it with the same mindset won't work. Taking it as more of a console type game where you can play for 30 minutes here and there it can be fun.
Is DX2 better than a lot of games since? I think so.
Is it better than Bioshock? Again I think so, Bioshock was pretty and scary in places but it bored me pretty quick. I still haven't finished and have tried a few times.

So on to DX3, I had been hoping for this although I would rather see SS3.
I hope it is more like the original with all the skills and complexity back in there but it won't be. Lets be honest - it will be more dumbed down than DX2. All recent gaming trends point to this
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November 27th, 2007, 15:57
Originally Posted by pox67 View Post
I'd be interested to know how many of you that hate DX2 with a passion played more than 2 levels?

I have to admit I hated it when it came out and only played the demo. Then only about 6 months ago I was bored and DX2 was on Steam. So I gave it a shot and you know what, I had a bunch of fun. That surprised me.

The game isn't like the original, playing it with the same mindset won't work. Taking it as more of a console type game where you can play for 30 minutes here and there it can be fun.
Is DX2 better than a lot of games since? I think so.
Is it better than Bioshock? Again I think so, Bioshock was pretty and scary in places but it bored me pretty quick. I still haven't finished and have tried a few times.

So on to DX3, I had been hoping for this although I would rather see SS3.
I hope it is more like the original with all the skills and complexity back in there but it won't be. Lets be honest - it will be more dumbed down than DX2. All recent gaming trends point to this
I played DX2 about halfway through.

Sure, if you totally ignore that there ever was a prequel it might count as a "decent" game. But that's not how things work.

You have a legacy, and if you don't treat that legacy with respect you're going to face the consequences. There's no value in taking an established game and making a MUCH lesser version of that, because you're greedy and want to release it on consoles.

That's why the game is despised so much.
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November 27th, 2007, 17:07
Originally Posted by JDR13
There's no need for me to give you the definition of an "outside producer", because that's not what he was.
Well to use your quote.
you're welcome to believe whatever you like
Outside is not part of the company, Looking Glass was a 2 room house if I recall correctly with the LG team in one room and the other was mostly used by the guys that would become Irrational, iirc.
So, if he was part of the company as a producer and NOT an outside producer where was his office?

Not necessary. Whatever your definition of "contributor" may be, or how it differs from mine, does not interest me in the least, you're welcome to believe whatever you like
Lol, ok, fine what did he contribute?

pox67, I am not sure if you can do this with Steam or how Steam really works, but it has really been fixed up by the many regulars at TTLG forums and now is in one consolidated file called DX-IW Texture Pack.exe and it's a 140 meg download.
It's now mostly been consolidated by JohnP but many like BlumenKohl and Koif, it really makes the game look much better, than original release, here's a link in case you can get it to work with Steam.
http://www.john-p.com/textures/DX-IW/index.shtml

DArtagnan I feel the same in many ways, much is a matter of princple of what they did to their own IP and maybe it's better off in the hands of others.
Hopefully the new team cares enough to make it a worthy successor.

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Last edited by Acleacius; November 27th, 2007 at 17:14.
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November 27th, 2007, 17:30
Originally Posted by pox67 View Post
I'd be interested to know how many of you that hate DX2 with a passion played more than 2 levels?
I completed the game. It had a lot of problems. Most of them revolved around the fact that Harvey Smith and Warren Spector took a gigantic piss all over PC gamers and fans of the first game. The problems included:
1. Terrible AI
2. Broken physics
3. Awful interface and menu setups
4. Huge 36-point letters obviously made for the X-Box crowd
5. Crap level design (mostly they were too small — once again: thanks XBox!)
6. Lame ending cut scenes
7. Uninteresting music
8. Crap weapons that sounded like crap
9. You could max out your biomods 2/3 of the way through the game
10. Universal ammo. Christ what were they thinking?
11. Dumb contrivances like magical weapons fields that would turn all of your weapons off when you entered a bar.
12. Terrible engine that ran like garbage even on an ultra high end PC. I had a Radeon 9800 Pro at the time and I had to run it at 800X600 with anti-aliasing turned off. I ran Far Cry five months later with all settings on medium or high.
13. PC version of the game would minimize to the task bar between levels

The game was a disaster. It practically destroyed Ion Storm and it destroyed what could have been an excellent franchise. If Eidos wants anyone to be interested in this game at all, they had better disown that game immediately.
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November 27th, 2007, 17:36
I thought DX2 looked and ran just fine. I had absolutely no performance problems at all and my computer is *far* from high end.
The level design I thought was ok, and the areas looked interesting. It was fun to explore.

I think the biggest problem with DX2 is that it was a good game in the shadow of tremendous game. Had there been no DX, Invisible War in all likelihood would have been rather well received ( although it was well received critically ) by the gaming public.

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November 27th, 2007, 18:01
Yep, they really should have called it something else and leave DX to rest.

Thanks Acleacius. That is one of the good things about Steam, they don't monkey with the code to much so updates and mods generally work. I did try out the full texture pack and it looked very good but the load times were just too much for me. That was running on a C2D, 4gb ram and raid 0 hard drives.
I went back to the original textures as I generally load/save a lot to see as much of the game as I can.
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November 27th, 2007, 18:05
I completed the game to be sure that it wouldn't get any better near the end…heck you can't imagine how much I hoped.. DX2 is probably the most dissapointing game I've played ever. I still can't figure out how on earth they couldn't notice all those flaws. Doctor Kaz's list is pretty accurate and sums my thoughts of the game.
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November 27th, 2007, 18:41
Nice list, doctor_kaz.

pox67, ok I didn't think they were too bad only taking 10 extra seconds to load, maybe the Steam version is effected.
Not sure if you saw the notes but you need to pick which Alex textures you want, so maybe it was loading a bunch of stuff you don't need.

Dez I don't think it was they didn't notice them, they just couldn't do a damn thing about it. They tried to make the first Real Time Shadows, it was a ego move they wanted to beat the any other game developer and had to rewrite so much of Unreal's code they literally cut their own throat.
Had they stuck to regular Static or Semi Realtime Lighting, they could have had much larger and well designed levels, hell, they never had time to work on the AI or Physics they couldn't get that damn engine to work so everything was cut.

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November 27th, 2007, 19:06
Originally Posted by Acleacius View Post
Outside is not part of the company, Looking Glass was a 2 room house if I recall correctly with the LG team in one room and the other was mostly used by the guys that would become Irrational, iirc.
So, if he was part of the company as a producer and NOT an outside producer where was his office?

You're joking right?

He was the producer, if you're actually going to insist on using the term "outside" just because his office may or may not have been physically connected to the same building, then so be it. In that case I guess they also had "outside" programmers, "outside" designers, "outside" artist, etc.


Well to use your quote.

you're welcome to believe whatever you like


Believing has nothing to do with that fact, here are the developer credits for System Shock.
http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/system-shock/credits


Originally Posted by Acleacius View Post
Lol, ok, fine what did he contribute?

Again, you're joking right? As the producer I'd have to say he probably had input in nearly every decision that was made during development, it's known that he participated in the design work, he even voiced one of the log files in fact.
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November 27th, 2007, 21:27
Warren Spector

Spector is usually credited as a producer, except for Deus Ex on which he is also credited as project director.
Interview at RPGDot

I like his taste in music:
…Velvet Underground, Lou Reed, the Pixies, … ,White Stripes, the Detroit Cobras …

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November 27th, 2007, 21:34
actually JDR the producer doesn't necessarily mean anything. it could mean lots of input, or little at all just money or a signiture. technically many things are producer by those who are no longer living but had something to do with it from its original conception to the final product.

Gallifrey you're not alone i think deus-ex 2 is one of the few great cyberpunk games out there. for me its more of the fact that there are so few of those games which i highly enjoy, rather than the fact that i can agree with most it was a meagre sequel with console problems.

Acleacius, my opinion on those type of games is that their lineage is console based in nature. action/adventure/3rd person have always had a number of notable games on the console and as is such, i'm glad to see them on the pc, and have franchises that have always been dual produced for the pc like tomb raider (even though 1-4 i played on ps).

the problem comes in with the hybrids with fps which have always been known to be better on the pc. deus ex, system shock, etc. not only are more than a shooter but they almost add an adventure element with story/interaction/puzzles with objects and character development from the rpg side. the only one of those elements that really benifits from console-minded gameplay is the interaction/adventure side. the best adventures are often light-hearted and certainly a turn off to hardcore fps fans or rpg fans. again though i think if done right the hybrids can be the best games as long as they don't try to appease to too many people. i think its far to unfair of people to expect what they like out of a hybrid to be the highest priority. the rpg fans lost out the most with deus ex 2, as well as everyone a little with some of the 'gimped' design choices. still it was a great game though to me. but again i like adventure games (not of the 1st person ala myst variety though).

i honestly believe though that deus ex 3 will be better than fallout 3. anyone else share that sentiment? this is based on a zero expectation model where all prior games in the series aren't accounted for in a basis of judgement. though along those lines deus ex 3 has much less to lose because of the lack of success of deus ex 2.
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November 27th, 2007, 22:02
Originally Posted by curiously undead View Post
actually JDR the producer doesn't necessarily mean anything. it could mean lots of input, or little at all just money or a signiture. technically many things are producer by those who are no longer living but had something to do with it from its original conception to the final product.

Gallifrey you're not alone i think deus-ex 2 is one of the few great cyberpunk games out there. for me its more of the fact that there are so few of those games which i highly enjoy, rather than the fact that i can agree with most it was a meagre sequel with console problems.

Acleacius, my opinion on those type of games is that their lineage is console based in nature. action/adventure/3rd person have always had a number of notable games on the console and as is such, i'm glad to see them on the pc, and have franchises that have always been dual produced for the pc like tomb raider (even though 1-4 i played on ps).

the problem comes in with the hybrids with fps which have always been known to be better on the pc. deus ex, system shock, etc. not only are more than a shooter but they almost add an adventure element with story/interaction/puzzles with objects and character development from the rpg side. the only one of those elements that really benifits from console-minded gameplay is the interaction/adventure side. the best adventures are often light-hearted and certainly a turn off to hardcore fps fans or rpg fans. again though i think if done right the hybrids can be the best games as long as they don't try to appease to too many people. i think its far to unfair of people to expect what they like out of a hybrid to be the highest priority. the rpg fans lost out the most with deus ex 2, as well as everyone a little with some of the 'gimped' design choices. still it was a great game though to me. but again i like adventure games (not of the 1st person ala myst variety though).

i honestly believe though that deus ex 3 will be better than fallout 3. anyone else share that sentiment? this is based on a zero expectation model where all prior games in the series aren't accounted for in a basis of judgement. though along those lines deus ex 3 has much less to lose because of the lack of success of deus ex 2.
The quality of a game doesn't change based on expectations, and I find that attitude quite puzzling.

Sure, if you expect a lot from a game, you might be disappointed, but that doesn't change anything about the game itself. If we are to evaluate games, then we must strive to do it in an objective fashion, and we have to take things in context. Games don't exist in a vacuum and you can't ignore the legacy of a game, nor can you ignore established levels of quality in any genre.

At this point, we have next to zero knowledge of Deus Ex 3, so there's nothing to base a solid guess on. I have no idea what it will be like, but given my experience with the industry, 9 games out of 10 are seriously compromised in favor of what generates the greatest revenue. However, even in those cases there can be a chance of significant quality. Bioshock is such an example, and I found it to be a very good game overall, but it suffered horribly from not living up to its legacy.

Deus Ex 3 needs only to surpass the 2nd one, significantly, to win over most people - or so I think. However, if it doesn't AT LEAST try to outdo or match the first one, I won't cut it any slack and I see no reason why anyone should.

If you use a franchise, you better respect it, or you're simply being greedy and deserve nothing but contempt from the loyal fans.
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November 27th, 2007, 22:29
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
If you use a franchise, you better respect it, or you're simply being greedy and deserve nothing but contempt from the loyal fans.
Exactly. But nowadays, producers don't care much about the opinion of loyal fans of the series. They care about the expectation of new generations young console gamers. DX is the example of the game that will suffer terribly from the "consolisation".

It's not even the question of simplified interface / skill system and such. DX was a very mature game, not in terms of adult contents, but in terms of general questions posed by the game - the conversation with the bartender in Hong Kong about the weakness of democracy is a memorable example. There is little hope that someone will try to create such a deep atmoshpere in a mass-market console product.

The original DX looked like a FPS, but it was not (you could finish entire game without firing a single bullet). The DX3 would probably look like DX-clone at first, but sadly, it would probalby be a simple cyber-punk theme FPS…
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November 27th, 2007, 23:25
My review from RPGDot days:

http://www.rpgdot.com/index.php?hsaction=10053&ID=834

I finished it multiple times (not hard at <12 hours). It has some good points and a whole lot of bad design choices that dilute the experience.

Not "bad" - just mediocre.

-= RPGWatch =-
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November 27th, 2007, 23:40
I wouldn't have hated it so badly if it wasn't an obvious crappy console port that was completely dumbed down and had about the worst optimized engine I have ever seen … and that doesn't scale worth crap. Most 2001/2 shooters look better than DX:IW and it was almost in '04 …

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