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Default Golden Compass "Good Or Bad"

December 5th, 2007, 18:38
Originally Posted by woges View Post
Porn is that popular in your parts? Sorry, I know, I'm a bad man.
I guess I'm more naive than I thought … I have no idea what joke it is I'm not getting …

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December 5th, 2007, 18:42
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
I guess I'm more naive than I thought … I have no idea what joke it is I'm not getting …
Top shelve items in the UK are em… not highbrow quality lets say.
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December 5th, 2007, 18:57
Originally Posted by Benedict View Post
Without wishing to be confrontational, would you be preventing them from seeing it for their benefit or for yours? You've chosen your path, let them choose theirs. If your faith is the right ideology for them then a movie won't do them any harm, and if it isn't then censoring alternative perspectives probably will be quite harmful for them.

Again, please don't take this as an attack on your values, merely an honest enquiry as that level of faith is an utterly alien concept to me and I'm curious to understand it better.
Don't worry… you can't upset me with a valid discussion

Sorry, but my children are 9 and 6… far to young to be making very adult decisions, like the belief in God. You may disagree, but that's your choice and you can raise your children any way you want. I will raise them the way I believe is right, and the way that God wants me to raise them… then when they are 18 they can choose to follow the path I have set before them, or not… and I will respect that.

That's what my parents did… and (this is a long story, but I'll try to keep it brief)… when I reached the age of 18 I chose to abandon that faith that was taught to me. I became a heavy drug user (in the name of enlightening myself… in other words I didn't do drugs strictly for recreation). I lived a liberal, "do what you want" life… it almost killed me (literally). When all of that was over, and I had time to re-evaluate where I was in life, I had my parents' (and thus, the bible's) teachings to fall back on. If I had not had that, I would have continued to spiral… and I WOULD be dead today. Guaranteed.

Children who don't have a strong moral basis to fall back on risk a greater chance of never coming back from addictions, and destructive behavior. You can dispute that if you like… but I have studied it extensively (remember my first profession was psychology), and I see it in young adults all the time.

I'm not going to read the books because I have wayyy too much other fantasy to read that isn't written by a writer with a definite, outspoken agenda toward God (I don't care about religion… just God).

Once again… just my opinion

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December 5th, 2007, 19:38
Originally Posted by narpet View Post
Sorry, but my children are 9 and 6… far to young to be making very adult decisions
That statement alone made my day … so refreshing in this day of 'my 2 year old is so exceptional s/he is ready for R movies and M games and unrestricted internet and setting own bedtimes and rules and …' … ah, y'know …

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December 5th, 2007, 22:12
The real meaning behind the words "disrespectful to religion" is "a threat to the power of our organisation". A good and truthful agenda have no need to silence anyone, it survives on it's own in a free country.
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December 5th, 2007, 23:59
Originally Posted by woges View Post
Even the Archbishop of Canterbury doesn't mind the book.

I can't really find the logic of being afraid of a book in the first place.
He's a Pagan and a Heretic!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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December 6th, 2007, 01:29
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
He's a Pagan and a Heretic!!
Yeah, and he's one of the good ones
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December 6th, 2007, 12:53
Originally Posted by narpet View Post
Don't worry… you can't upset me with a valid discussion
Always best to check, especially when it's a discussion with someone whose viewpoints I just don't really get

Sorry, but my children are 9 and 6… far to young to be making very adult decisions, like the belief in God. You may disagree, but that's your choice and you can raise your children any way you want. I will raise them the way I believe is right, and the way that God wants me to raise them… then when they are 18 they can choose to follow the path I have set before them, or not… and I will respect that.
What's that quote . . . "Give me a boy until the age of seven and I shall show you the man" or something like that . . . It's a tricky issue really, I agree that faith can be a fundamental aspect of someone's life and as such is far too important a decision to be left to a child. But then early imprints have such power to shape a person's deep psyche that if the decision is made for them as a child then the imprints may be too powerful for them to be able to choose by the time they're adults. But I don't have any concept of a way that people should be raised or a path they should follow so I doubt I'd ever have the certainty necessary to take anyone elses choices for them

That's what my parents did… and (this is a long story, but I'll try to keep it brief)… when I reached the age of 18 I chose to abandon that faith that was taught to me. I became a heavy drug user (in the name of enlightening myself… in other words I didn't do drugs strictly for recreation). I lived a liberal, "do what you want" life… it almost killed me (literally). When all of that was over, and I had time to re-evaluate where I was in life, I had my parents' (and thus, the bible's) teachings to fall back on. If I had not had that, I would have continued to spiral… and I WOULD be dead today. Guaranteed.

Children who don't have a strong moral basis to fall back on risk a greater chance of never coming back from addictions, and destructive behavior. You can dispute that if you like… but I have studied it extensively (remember my first profession was psychology), and I see it in young adults all the time.
I'm a little confused here - did your parents do the same as you're doing or did they take the liberal approach that you don't want to take?

If the former do you think that you might have gone on that journey of self discovery precisely because they hadn't given you the chance to choose and so when you hit 18 you weren't sure who you were and needed to find out? If the latter, doesn't your faith mean more to you now because you chose that path yourself rather than having it chosen for you?

Either way, out of curiosity which drugs? I've had a phase myself with LSD and 2cb (the latter probably more recreational) and dabbled with mescaline and mushrooms, but never liked ketamine and never been keen enough on self discovery to get involved with DMT or similar tryptamines.

I'm not going to read the books because I have wayyy too much other fantasy to read that isn't written by a writer with a definite, outspoken agenda toward God (I don't care about religion… just God).

Once again… just my opinion
A shame, they're definitely well above average, and as said his agenda is towards the religions, not towards God, at least in the books and a couple of interviews with him that I've read, although I'm sure there are a lot of other articles where his views are either misinterpreted or actively misrepresented.
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December 6th, 2007, 16:44
Originally Posted by Benedict View Post
I'm a little confused here - did your parents do the same as you're doing or did they take the liberal approach that you don't want to take?

Either way, out of curiosity which drugs? I've had a phase myself with LSD and 2cb (the latter probably more recreational) and dabbled with mescaline and mushrooms, but never liked ketamine and never been keen enough on self discovery to get involved with DMT or similar tryptamines.

A shame, they're definitely well above average, and as said his agenda is towards the religions, not towards God, at least in the books and a couple of interviews with him that I've read, although I'm sure there are a lot of other articles where his views are either misinterpreted or actively misrepresented.
My parents raised me the same way I am raising my children… and I can tell you from actual experience that it had no impact on my ability to make my own decisions when I reached young adulthood. Even though they had taught and showed me a Christian way of life, I completely abandoned it for a life of "finding myself and my spirituality" through "mind expanding" drugs like LSD, mescaline, and peyote. All of those things are simply self destructive, and while they can lead to some fun times, and some very deep thought… they ultimately are spiritually empty. When I almost died I had my parents teachings to fall back on. I was able to re-evaluate what they taught me, and I made the conscious choice to study the bible and believe the word of God.

That's the background that I want to give my children. They then will have the ability to make informed choices (once they are old enough to actually make informed choices, and no matter what you may think… a 9 year old boy is not fully capable of making informed choices). I will respect (even if I don't like) any informed choice that my sons make when they are adults.

About the books… like I said… I have about 30 books still waiting for me to read them… I have no reason to read a book by a guy who I completely and utterly disagree with on the most important aspect of my life. Am I saying it's a threat to me and my beliefs… absolutely not… he could never sway me. What I'm saying is that I consider him a poor influence on impressionable children and I don't need his works in my life… it's that simple. Am I missing much… considering how much good fiction is out there… no, I'm not really missing much.

And he is known to be an extremely vocal atheist… and that is not a misrepresentation… it's a fact (I'll try to get my sources… it's been a while since I've read the interviews). And being an atheist is by definition being against God. It's not the disbelief of religion… it's the disbelief of an all powerful creator.

Just my opinion… and as always… you are able to raise your children any way you choose… but when they get to a terrible time in their life, and they have no strong basis to fall back on (whether is be Christianity, Buddhism, or just a very good teaching of respect and love, etc), they face a much greater risk of not being able to rise up out of the terrible time. I've seen it, studied it, and experienced it with other extended family members.

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December 6th, 2007, 17:42
So vocal atheists are bad people now? I'm sorry but I don't agree with what you say and you don't need religion to have a moral upbringing. Theres little point in discussing it though because banging two brick walls together won't get you anywhere.
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December 6th, 2007, 20:53
Originally Posted by woges View Post
So vocal atheists are bad people now? I'm sorry but I don't agree with what you say and you don't need religion to have a moral upbringing. Theres little point in discussing it though because banging two brick walls together won't get you anywhere.
They are a threat to the authority that a few sects takes for granted. To quell that threat in a time where genocide is frowned upon requires them to lie because the eight commandment have no value to members of such sects. Among other distortions, slapping a label on every person who is not an official member of the cult is important. Once you managed to label someone you can start to pick them down from your radically twisted perspective. The patriarchy, the Zionists, the Aliens tapping your telephone etc are such labels. It focuses people, just like any symbol can. In the case of the Abraham religions their label is "atheists" or "heathen" and they are "bad" because they are not members. When their power is threatened they will use their strings and argue things like "they disrespect our faith" etc, which is political bs for "do not question our agenda".
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December 6th, 2007, 21:18
Has anyone seen the movie yet, cause I hear many bad reviews (no Christian reviews, but the general ones) about it? They say the movie goes really fast and that you never have the chance to empathise with the key characters -> I mean even the evil personage (Nicole Kidmann) doesn't come over as you expect from such an actress they say. Is this true?

Btw, Narnia … I'm very happy that I didn't see this one at the movie theatre. I saw it on a DVD and this was one not worth to make a copy of it. I think Eragon is much better then Narnia.

so very, very tired (Star Trek XI quote according to the Simpsons)
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December 6th, 2007, 21:25
Movie is out tomorrow … but the early press isn't flattering.

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December 6th, 2007, 23:24
Originally Posted by woges View Post
So vocal atheists are bad people now? I'm sorry but I don't agree with what you say and you don't need religion to have a moral upbringing. Theres little point in discussing it though because banging two brick walls together won't get you anywhere.
Okay… just so we have what I said straight… first… I never said atheist were bad people anywhere in my text. I said I disagreed with his viewpoint and I said: "And being an atheist is by definition being against God. It's not the disbelief of religion… it's the disbelief of an all powerful creator." Please re-read my entire post and you will see that I never say that athiests are bad.

Second, you obviously do agree with me, or once again you didn't read my post completely because I said "Just my opinion… and as always… you are able to raise your children any way you choose… but when they get to a terrible time in their life, and they have no strong basis to fall back on (whether is be Christianity, Buddhism, or just a very good teaching of respect and love, etc), they face a much greater risk of not being able to rise up out of the terrible time."

So I obviously said that being brought up with a very good teaching of respect and love are just as pertinent as any religious beliefs.
In other words… per quoting myself, I said that bringing up your child as a christian, or buddhist, or just teaching them respect and love… are all valid, good ways to raise your child.

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December 7th, 2007, 03:21
Very nicely re-iterated … you basically say that if you do a good job of parenting you will give your kids a solid moral compass, whether religious or not, and that will help them in times of need. Very much agree.

Oh, and to join back to the topic, this discussion is becoming better than the reviews indicate the movie turned out.

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December 7th, 2007, 03:59
Ahh, but you did say you were in the Corwin camp with his "aggressive atheist" comment. So I kinda lumped you together as a whole.
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December 7th, 2007, 08:35
I don't know which one of us should feel insulted!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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December 8th, 2007, 13:27
There are a few common misconceptions about atheism trotted out here which nobody else has bothered to set straight, so I will.

(1) Atheism is not a religion any more than theism is a religion. There are a number of atheistic religions (e.g. some varieties of Buddhism), a number of atheistic belief systems that have many characteristics of religion (e.g. some varieties of Marxism), just like there are a number of theistic religions and belief systems.

(2) The statement that "atheists are by definition against God" is patently absurd, since you cannot by definition be against something that you don't believe even exists. There are, of course, anti-religious atheists, atheists that have it in for some religion in particular, and atheists that are not anti-religious. JemyM, for example, has repeatedly stated that he is an anti-religious atheist. I am also an atheist, but I am not anti-religious. (If I were, that would cause me severe problems at home, since my wife is a practicing Catholic.)

Oh, the film? I have no intentions of going to see it at this time. I tend not to like propaganda unless it's either exceptionally good propaganda or exceptionally straightforward about being propaganda, and I get the impression that this is neither. (I have a very strong dislike for C.S. Lewis's work for the same reason.)
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December 8th, 2007, 14:06
CS. Lewis Narnia is a propaganda? Since when?
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December 8th, 2007, 14:43
Originally Posted by nessosin View Post
CS. Lewis Narnia is a propaganda? Since when?
Since Harry Potter was a subversive effort to turn children to Wika …

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