|
Your donations keep RPGWatch running!
RPGWatch Forums » Games » General RPG » Proc. Gen.: The Enemy

Default Proc. Gen.: The Enemy

May 20th, 2015, 21:08
There has been a recent flood of procedurally generated games with "RPG elements". They are usually variations of hack 'n' slash even when they attempt to include the semblance of story. Whilst I understand there may be some kind of value for people happy to do something that is different every time or that has "infinite" permutations I believe that these kind of games do not really offer anything different every time. Moreover, I have the suspicion that procedural generation as a whole will result in an increase in the number of sloppy and lazy productions hitting our screens.

Personally I do not want to play anything that artificially creates that "just one more go" feeling by imposing a quick death or by offering so many different character builds that you just want to tinker with it and do what is basically the same thing over and over again. I own several of these kind of games including the much vaunted Dungeons of Dreadmore, Dins Curse, and more. They ALL become tiresome for me rather quickly and it is my belief that they are in direct opposition to anything that is truly story driven. For these reasons, and whilst I like to think I can appreciate many different kinds of game, these days when I see the words "roguelike" or "procedurally generated" in a game's description I will instantly ignore it.

This is an invitation to debate. If any of you guys have particular games of this sort that you think prove me wrong or that you enjoy for other specific reasons then I want to hear about them. I am starting to feel somewhat jaded and perhaps overly negative in my response to some kinds of game - my attitude towards platform games tends to be fairly similar.

I am not racist, sexist, homophobic, anti or pro anything. I hate everyone EQUALLY
Last edited by MrMuse; May 21st, 2015 at 00:18.
MrMuse is offline

MrMuse

MrMuse's Avatar
Watcher

#1

Join Date: May 2015
Location: Wales
Posts: 98

Default 

May 20th, 2015, 21:26
@MrMuse
this belongs to the General RPG forum.

For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong. - HL Mencken
HiddenX is offline

HiddenX

HiddenX's Avatar
The Elder Spy
RPGWatch Team RPGWatch Donor

#2

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: NRW/Germany
Posts: 5,262

Default 

May 20th, 2015, 22:45
I am sort of neutral on this issue. I loved the procedurally generated dungeons of Daggerfall, since they were crazy complicated. But I hate procedurally generated encounters (i.e. monster spawns). One reason MMX was great to me is that there were zero respawns. Every encounter was handcrafted (as was the world layout).
Thrasher is offline

Thrasher

Thrasher's Avatar
Wheeee!
RPGWatch Donor

#3

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Studio City, CA
Posts: 11,521
+1:

Default 

May 20th, 2015, 22:47
Battle Brothers is a new very positive example of a procedurally generated game.

For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong. - HL Mencken
HiddenX is offline

HiddenX

HiddenX's Avatar
The Elder Spy
RPGWatch Team RPGWatch Donor

#4

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: NRW/Germany
Posts: 5,262

Default 

May 21st, 2015, 00:11
Originally Posted by HiddenX View Post
Battle Brothers is a new very positive example of a procedurally generated game.
You should explain why. Could it have been improved without procedural generation or is it something that enhances the game more than another approach may have done?

I am not racist, sexist, homophobic, anti or pro anything. I hate everyone EQUALLY
Last edited by MrMuse; May 21st, 2015 at 00:23.
MrMuse is offline

MrMuse

MrMuse's Avatar
Watcher

#5

Join Date: May 2015
Location: Wales
Posts: 98

Default 

May 21st, 2015, 01:52
You must be new here. HiddenX isn't an explainerbot, he's an encyclopediabot. If you get anything more than a list out of him it means he's gone HAL and probably requires a doctor.
lackblogger is offline

lackblogger

Sentinel

#6

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 364
+1:

Default 

May 21st, 2015, 02:28
Heh, maybe I know him a little better than you do then. I think part of the reason his comments are short is that he has become used to Steam forcing them to be that way. That and his efforts there give him very little time elsewhere. I am just trying to facilitate discussion.

I am not racist, sexist, homophobic, anti or pro anything. I hate everyone EQUALLY
Last edited by MrMuse; May 21st, 2015 at 02:42.
MrMuse is offline

MrMuse

MrMuse's Avatar
Watcher

#7

Join Date: May 2015
Location: Wales
Posts: 98

Default 

May 21st, 2015, 03:10
You see, it rains so much in Wales that all the people are stuck inside and have plenty of time for long posts. In Germany, there are FAR more important things to do, like drink their excellent beer. Just ask Jaz if you don't believe me!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

Editor@RPGWatch
Corwin is offline

Corwin

Corwin's Avatar
On The Razorblade of Life
RPGWatch Team

#8

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 11,082
Send a message via Skype™ to Corwin
+1:

Default 

May 21st, 2015, 07:23
Battle Brothers is a sandbox game with a dynamic world. No game plays the same.
Even the descriptions of your party members are generated.
You find different people and quests in every walkthrough.

Another good example (maybe the best) for a procedurally generated game:
Civilization 1.

I think this technique is necessary for sandbox games.

PS:
I'm not a bot at all - but a programmer. And good programmers write short self-explaining code
(and yes I love good beer)

For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong. - HL Mencken
Last edited by HiddenX; May 21st, 2015 at 08:03.
HiddenX is offline

HiddenX

HiddenX's Avatar
The Elder Spy
RPGWatch Team RPGWatch Donor

#9

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: NRW/Germany
Posts: 5,262

Default 

May 21st, 2015, 09:31
While I prefer a fixed map it isn't a bad thing if the game also has the option for a procedurally generated one - just like Civ 1. It is hard to beat a well designed map but developers are getting better tools which is making procedurally generated maps more richer.

Favourite RPGs of all time: Wizardry 6, Ultima 7/7.2, Fallout2, Planescape Torment, Baldurs Gate 2+TOB, Jagged Alliance 2, Ravenloft: The stone prophet, Gothic 2, Realms of Arkania:Blade of destiny (not the HD version!!) and Secret of the Silver Blades.
bjon045 is offline

bjon045

bjon045's Avatar
Keeper of the Watch

#10

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Sigil
Posts: 1,053

Default 

May 21st, 2015, 10:57
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
In Germany
Ahhhh, that explains it!
lackblogger is offline

lackblogger

Sentinel

#11

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 364

Default 

May 21st, 2015, 12:30
I don't mind procedurally generated content for roguelikes, but I dislike it in any other type of game.
JDR13 is online now

JDR13

JDR13's Avatar
SasqWatch

#12

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Florida, US
Posts: 19,213

Default 

May 21st, 2015, 21:52
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
You see, it rains so much in Wales that all the people are stuck inside and have plenty of time for long posts.
It's actually been sunny for the last few weeks. It's almost 9pm here now and the sun is still shining. About a month ago it was reported that Britain had the hottest temperatures in all of Europe - I'm not sure for how long though.

I am not racist, sexist, homophobic, anti or pro anything. I hate everyone EQUALLY
MrMuse is offline

MrMuse

MrMuse's Avatar
Watcher

#13

Join Date: May 2015
Location: Wales
Posts: 98

Default 

May 22nd, 2015, 00:20
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
You see, it rains so much in Wales that all the people are stuck inside and have plenty of time for long posts. In Germany, there are FAR more important things to do, like drink their excellent beer. Just ask Jaz if you don't believe me!!
Plus in Germany it doesn't always rain, although it some people might think so. Here it only rains when important stuff is going on open air - and when you're shopping for new beer of course.
Gorath is offline

Gorath

Gorath's Avatar
Prime Evil
RPGWatch Team

#14

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 7,268

Default 

May 22nd, 2015, 05:28
Procedural Generation CAN be great stuff. You really don't need to place every single tree and shrub in a forest - just work out some good math and generate the thing. 4X games have been using procedural generation for their maps for decades.

Sure, it can be a lazy way out. A procedurally-generated dungeon could end up just being a series of rooms with a series of monsters that have no connection to each other at all (a la the 'random dungeon creator' in the old AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide). Of course, a lazy level designer might do exactly the same thing.

I guess No Man's Sky will show us the state of the art. I expect to see a lot from them at E3.

Originally Posted by MrMuse View Post
It's actually been sunny for the last few weeks.
Your weather has taken up residence in Kansas City. I would appreciate it if you would TAKE IT BACK NOW. I need to clean my gutters but the ground is always too muddy for ladders!
Zloth is offline

Zloth

Zloth's Avatar
I smell a… wumpus!?

#15

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 3,205

Default 

May 22nd, 2015, 16:55
Hah, I shouldn't have said a word..it's pissed down rain all day.

I am not racist, sexist, homophobic, anti or pro anything. I hate everyone EQUALLY
MrMuse is offline

MrMuse

MrMuse's Avatar
Watcher

#16

Join Date: May 2015
Location: Wales
Posts: 98

Default 

May 22nd, 2015, 17:09
I'm not a procedural generated content fan either. I want content to mean something, to fit in a storyline. I prefer to play a shorter game where almost everything is hand placed, hand made loot, important encounters, etc. Obviously some things need to be random (such as random encounters, populating terrain and such) and thats fine.
Toff is offline

Toff

Toff's Avatar
Keeper of the Watch

#17

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 798
+1:

Default 

May 22nd, 2015, 17:12
I think it has a place in certain games as a supplement to handcrafted content, but I haven't been able to enjoy a fully procedurally generated content game in ages.

I guess I've grown old and weary enough to need a proper story and content that feels as if it's made by someone who cares about it.

The exception would be random maps in competitive games, for variety and "even playing field" purposes.
DArtagnan is offline

DArtagnan

DArtagnan's Avatar
Waste of potential

#18

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Denmark
Posts: 16,758
+1:

Default 

Yesterday, 00:21
So you're saying that the people writing the procedural code don't care about it, DArtagnan? <grin>
Zloth is offline

Zloth

Zloth's Avatar
I smell a… wumpus!?

#19

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 3,205

Default 

Yesterday, 01:54
Originally Posted by Zloth View Post
So you're saying that the people writing the procedural code don't care about it, DArtagnan? <grin>
Disingenuous. You are trying to bait him into responding to something he did not imply. In all likelihood it is in their own interests to make such code as close to perfect in respect of their mandate as any other form of artistic or programming task. This neither validates nor invalidates anything on the specific issue. My original comment was more to do with p.g. giving a heightened option of laziness ,especially under time constraint, rather than the necessity of it.

I am not racist, sexist, homophobic, anti or pro anything. I hate everyone EQUALLY
MrMuse is offline

MrMuse

MrMuse's Avatar
Watcher

#20

Join Date: May 2015
Location: Wales
Posts: 98
RPGWatch Forums » Games » General RPG » Proc. Gen.: The Enemy
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:25.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright by RPGWatch