Quantcast
Neo Scavenger and RPG Codex Goy 2014 (Rant) - RPGWatch Forums
|
Your donations keep RPGWatch running!
RPGWatch Forums » Games » General RPG » Neo Scavenger and RPG Codex Goy 2014 (Rant)

Default Neo Scavenger and RPG Codex Goy 2014 (Rant)

July 9th, 2016, 18:36
Only now in retrospect to I realize what an incredible year 2014 was for pc rpgs. Divinity:Original Sin, Wasteland 2, Might and Magic X, Lords of Xulima, Valkyria Chronicles, Legends of Heroes: Trails of the Sky part 1, Shadow Run: Dragonfall, Legend of Grimrock 2, and Dragon Age:Inquisition (which is the only one I still haven't played because it runs too slowly on my computer). Also Neoscavenger, which I've finally got to playing after I got it on the GoG summer sale. Neoscavenger won 3rd place on the RPG codex GoY award. It just boggles my mind. Before LoX, MMX, VC, LOH, LoG, or DA:I. How can that be? Don't get me wrong its a fun little game with pretty intricate mechanics and unlike most roguelikes, surviving disease, hunger, and freezing is more important than combat, but in terms of combat, story, scope, and content its way behind every other game on that list. So how could it reach 3rd place? This is the problem when like 8 people are super fanatic about a game, and their votes outweigh when 400 people choose something as GOY and 100 people don't like it. I mean its nice in that it might point people to game they might not otherwise play, but it falsely puts games which really appeal to only a very small group over something that most voters like. I just have big problems with this kind of voting system. (rant out).
forgottenlor is offline

forgottenlor

forgottenlor's Avatar
Keeper of the Watch

#1

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Vienna, Austria
Posts: 1,041

Default 

July 9th, 2016, 19:00
It's roguelike.
So it got high because Codex site is… Roguelike.
You know that shit will hit the fan, but you can't be sure when, where, at what scale and will you survive it.

When it comes to vote, you'll first vote for yourself.
--
Toka Koka
joxer is offline

joxer

joxer's Avatar
The Smoker
Original Sin 1 & 2 Donor

#2

Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 12,365

Default 

July 9th, 2016, 23:31
How can it be that you haven't even played DA:I, yet think it should naturally be ahead of NeoScavenger? If you think a massive AAA title is necessarily better than an unknown indie, than there are many other GOTY polls better suited for you..

Also, NeoScavenger wasn't #3 because of "8 super fanatics". Check the results, 42% of its 198 voters gave it a 5/5 - only the Top 3 games have more 5/5 votes then 4/5.

Sure, other games had a lot more votes, but this isn't a popularity contest. A game that 198 people played and 42% LOVED is a better game than one 510 played but only 8% really liked.
--
フエフエ。
felipepepe is offline

felipepepe

felipepepe's Avatar
Codex Refugee

#3

Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 175
+1:

Default 

July 9th, 2016, 23:31
I don't remember have seen much Roguelike in this forum lists. Here one example, first one is 60, ADOM:
http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=9453

The system looks not bad but the problem is it's much harder to rate a game than just say your preferences. For NS at 3rd position, I didn't enjoyed my quick try of it, but I'm not surprised it is that much overhyped in this forum, it's specific there.

It's hard to get any conclusion from the detailed numbers but a quick check didn't show anything obvious pinpointing the weaknesses of the system. Overall high number of votes doesn't seem penalize, and low number of vote doesn't seem favor.

NS case is more a case of overhype in a community. Eventually such system would benefit of a minimum number of vote required.

The problem is rating many games, I wouldn't be surprised it generates a reflex to fit what you think people think instead of wonder what you really think of the game. For a few game you make an effort and past that you give up.

Anyway, I feel the experience worth be tried again.
Sanglon is offline

Sanglon

Watchdog

#4

Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 170

Default 

July 9th, 2016, 23:38
Originally Posted by felipepepe View Post
How can it be that you haven't even played DA:I, yet think it should naturally be ahead of NeoScavenger? If you think a massive AAA title is necessarily better than an unknown indie, than there are many other GOTY polls better suited for you..
Right, when I see a 2014 goty putting NS 3rd, I know already I can't put any faith in it and I'd better get my play ideas elsewhere.
Sanglon is offline

Sanglon

Watchdog

#5

Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 170

Default 

July 10th, 2016, 02:07
Originally Posted by felipepepe View Post
How can it be that you haven't even played DA:I, yet think it should naturally be ahead of NeoScavenger? If you think a massive AAA title is necessarily better than an unknown indie, than there are many other GOTY polls better suited for you..

Also, NeoScavenger wasn't #3 because of "8 super fanatics". Check the results, 42% of its 198 voters gave it a 5/5 - only the Top 3 games have more 5/5 votes then 4/5.

Sure, other games had a lot more votes, but this isn't a popularity contest. A game that 198 people played and 42% LOVED is a better game than one 510 played but only 8% really liked.
I think a lot of unknown indies are good, I think Lord of Xulima was on that list, which btw, had a massive amount of quality content and was a great game. Yes, I haven't played DA:I, but I've played Dragon Age 2, which is generally considered worse, and I've played Neoscavenger, so I can make assumptions about which game I'd enjoy more, and I know which game has more content and more story. I must admit that I'm surprised that 80 people gave Neo Scavenger 5 stars. I still can't believe that most players would consider it a better rpg than most of the other games on the list (if we take out DA:I). I think its because a lot of people wouldn't even bother with it. I'd be curious if you gave free keys to all those people and made them play it how that would shift the percentages.
forgottenlor is offline

forgottenlor

forgottenlor's Avatar
Keeper of the Watch

#6

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Vienna, Austria
Posts: 1,041

Default 

July 10th, 2016, 02:29
Indeed DA:I has a thousand times more content than NeoScavenger… but does that really matter when it's mostly MMO-like quests?

My memories of DA:I are all a big, mediocre blur; MMX felt dull next to modern Japanese blobbers; Lords of Xulima was cool for the first 5-6 hours, then became extremely repetitive; Wasteland 2 was boring and 4x longer than it should've been…

… but I fondly remember some of my brief NS runs, becoming a cannibal, escaping the ghost, getting a mod to ride a bicycle, etc… and it's the only of those games I would replay now.

Like myself, a lot of people prefer a short yet concise game, that brings something new and/or challenging and ends before getting dull. NeoScavenger offers just that.
--
フエフエ。
felipepepe is offline

felipepepe

felipepepe's Avatar
Codex Refugee

#7

Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 175

Default 

July 10th, 2016, 02:42
And like myself a lot of people prefer long games.
Some prefer them dull, some grindfest, some both of that, some prefer them not anything like that… As long as it's as long as possible.
Does it mean we shouldn't ask why is a roguelike on #3 spot of a list?

Roguelike is not challenging.
Roguelike is a slot machine and you're praying rng will produce next trashmobs as 777 you win.
IMO
--
Toka Koka
joxer is offline

joxer

joxer's Avatar
The Smoker
Original Sin 1 & 2 Donor

#8

Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 12,365

Default 

July 10th, 2016, 03:03
Originally Posted by felipepepe View Post
Indeed DA:I has a thousand times more content than NeoScavenger… but does that really matter when it's mostly MMO-like quests?

My memories of DA:I are all a big, mediocre blur; MMX felt dull next to modern Japanese blobbers; Lords of Xulima was cool for the first 5-6 hours, then became extremely repetitive; Wasteland 2 was boring and 4x longer than it should've been…

… but I fondly remember some of my brief NS runs, becoming a cannibal, escaping the ghost, getting a mod to ride a bicycle, etc… and it's the only of those games I would replay now.

Like myself, a lot of people prefer a short yet concise game, that brings something new and/or challenging and ends before getting dull. NeoScavenger offers just that.
Yeah, I guess we have completely different tastes. I finished MMX two times, finished Lord of Xulima, and Wasteland 2, and found them all to be great games, where Neoscavenger for me is repetitive and mediocre.
forgottenlor is offline

forgottenlor

forgottenlor's Avatar
Keeper of the Watch

#9

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Vienna, Austria
Posts: 1,041

Default 

July 10th, 2016, 09:16
I believe your attack angle is wrong, Neo Scavenger position has only been allowed by the vote, but the vote isn't the cause.

I didn't like my quick attempt to play it, now the problem could be more related to a genre, for example players preferring Roguelike or Point&Click Adventure voting for a CRPG list.

When you look at the longer list (20) the number of examples multiply:
NEO Scavenger: Roguelike & Survival
Heroine's Quest The Herald of Ragnarok: Point&Click Adventure
TOME: Pure classic Roguelike and just an extension of the game
Xenonauts: XCOM like
Crusader Kings II Way of Life: DLC of a strategy game
LISA: Platform game
Quest for Infamy: Point&Click Adventure
Transistor: Hard to say :-)

So yeah there's a problem of genres collisions in my opinion and the vote system allows show it.

How many Adventure Games that year targeting consistently CRPG? Two and both in a top twenty? A bit hard to believe. :-P

But frankly I'm not qualified to judge, the system could favor too much very specific sub genre, or it allowed highlight less popular games.
Sanglon is offline

Sanglon

Watchdog

#10

Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 170

Default 

July 10th, 2016, 14:37
I think Neo Scavenger was highly overrated myself as well. The beginning of the game was amazing. When your scrounging for even a plastic bag to put things in, and thrilled about finding the simplest things, that's when the game was at it's best. But once you survive long enough to get to the mid/end game, the game really falls apart. A lot of the story is incomplete, there isn't that much to do, and the game just becomes repetitive.

If I were to judge the game just based on the first half hour, I'd make it game of the year as well. But if I were judge the game as a whole, it would not come anywhere close. I guess the one saving grace is because the game is hard and you die a lot, the first half hour can get repeated many time.
fadedc is offline

fadedc

Keeper of the Watch

#11

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,205

Default 

July 10th, 2016, 16:41
Originally Posted by Sanglon View Post
How many Adventure Games that year targeting consistently CRPG? Two and both in a top twenty? A bit hard to believe. :-P
Heroine's Quest & Quest for Infamy both follow the blueprint of Quest for Glory, a classic RPG/Adventure game hybrid that has more RPG elements than many "true RPGs".

Also, if you start removing games due to sub-genres, where do you end? Do you include FPS/RPG hybrids like Deus Ex, or no? Fallout: New Vegas? Alpha Protocol?

Sub-divisions only lead to a slippery slope.
--
フエフエ。
felipepepe is offline

felipepepe

felipepepe's Avatar
Codex Refugee

#12

Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 175
+1:

Default 

July 10th, 2016, 17:22
Originally Posted by Sanglon View Post
I believe your attack angle is wrong, Neo Scavenger position has only been allowed by the vote, but the vote isn't the cause.

I didn't like my quick attempt to play it, now the problem could be more related to a genre, for example players preferring Roguelike or Point&Click Adventure voting for a CRPG list.

When you look at the longer list (20) the number of examples multiply:
NEO Scavenger: Roguelike & Survival
Heroine's Quest The Herald of Ragnarok: Point&Click Adventure
TOME: Pure classic Roguelike and just an extension of the game
Xenonauts: XCOM like
Crusader Kings II Way of Life: DLC of a strategy game
LISA: Platform game
Quest for Infamy: Point&Click Adventure
Transistor: Hard to say :-)

So yeah there's a problem of genres collisions in my opinion and the vote system allows show it.

How many Adventure Games that year targeting consistently CRPG? Two and both in a top twenty? A bit hard to believe. :-P

But frankly I'm not qualified to judge, the system could favor too much very specific sub genre, or it allowed highlight less popular games.
I'll concede that in general I would vote for a pure crpg over a roguelike, or for that matter a hack and slay, so I probably have that bias. But I consider Tales of the Maj' Eyel, Sword of Stars:The Pit, and Faster than Light to all be better games than Neo Scavenger. Still, I'd be hard to pressed to vote for any of those as RPG of the year over Lord of Xulima, Might and Magic X, Wasteland 2, Trails in the Sky or the Valkyria Chronicles (which is also a hybrid).
forgottenlor is offline

forgottenlor

forgottenlor's Avatar
Keeper of the Watch

#13

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Vienna, Austria
Posts: 1,041

Default 

July 10th, 2016, 20:14
The main problem with most GOTY polls is the games that are more well known games have an inherent advantage over the more obscure (and thus less likely to be played) titles. Games released near the end of the year are also at a disadvantage because many haven't had a chance to play them, are waiting for a sale, etc.

IIRC, in RPGWatch GOTY polls we simply choose our 1st 2nd and 3rd favorite RPG and then RPGs are ranked based on which got the most favorite votes. From what Felipepe is saying, it sounds as if the Codex GOTY takes into consideration how many have actually played the game. I'd actually prefer something like that because as he said it shouldn't just be a popularity contest.

I haven't played all 2015 RPGs yet, but I don't think Witcher 3 was the best as our GOTY poll would indicate. It's good but has many shortcomings as well.

I'd definitely rank Age of Decadence, Legends of Eisenwald, and SR:HK above TW3 (and way above PoE), yet none of those games even made the top three. Simarly, I disagree with the results of our 2014 poll. There's no accounting for taste

I'm probably be more inclined to vote for an obscure game that I feel deserves recognition over a popular title, even if it's more rough around the edges or technically simple. Choosing favorites or rating games on a numerical scale is pretty hard, anyway… i.e., Should you take budget / scope into consideration? Compare it to previous games in a series or to the genre as a whole? If I'm really enjoying a game overall, I think I'm inclined to overlook or downplay flaws. It's only if I revisit the game later or other's impressions that I really acknowledge them.
daveyd is offline

daveyd

daveyd's Avatar
Keeper of the Watch

#14

Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: PA
Posts: 826

Default 

July 10th, 2016, 20:41
Originally Posted by daveyd View Post
I'd definitely rank Age of Decadence, Legends of Eisenwald, and SR:HK above TW3 (and way above PoE), yet none of those games even made the top three. Simarly, I disagree with the results of our 2014 poll. There's no accounting for taste
You would. I wouldn't.

Age of Decadence with it's awsome approach certainly deserved top 3 entry. But above TW3? No, sorry.
Legends of Eisenwald I refused to buy as it looked as damned Mount and Blade clone. Not saying clones can't be better than the original game, but a clone of Mount and Blade cannot be better than TW3. Does it deserve to be in top 3, dunno. Can't be sure as I didn't buy it.
SR:HK don't even know what that is. Is it some Shadowrun? If yes, then it can be #1 on phonegames list for all I care. On PC games list, it needs to be at the bottom.

Forget tastes, concentrate on technical aspect in all these games.
--
Toka Koka
joxer is offline

joxer

joxer's Avatar
The Smoker
Original Sin 1 & 2 Donor

#15

Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 12,365

Default 

July 10th, 2016, 21:26
Originally Posted by joxer View Post
You would. I wouldn't.

Age of Decadence with it's awsome approach certainly deserved top 3 entry. But above TW3? No, sorry.
Legends of Eisenwald I refused to buy as it looked as damned Mount and Blade clone. Not saying clones can't be better than the original game, but a clone of Mount and Blade cannot be better than TW3. Does it deserve to be in top 3, dunno. Can't be sure as I didn't buy it.
SR:HK don't even know what that is. Is it some Shadowrun? If yes, then it can be #1 on phonegames list for all I care. On PC games list, it needs to be at the bottom.
Well, that's, like, your opinion, man.

I liked TW3 overall, but I just wasn't completely blown away by it. It had plenty of shortcomings and in some respects I actually think it was a step down from TW2. The "open world" was poorly done… It just meant much of the stuff outside of the major quests was repetitive filler content.

Shadowrun: Hong Kong was never released on anything besides PC, Mac, and Linux and there's no plans for a port to mobile (memory requirements are too steep IIRC) If you want to dismiss it off hand because HBS' previous SR games were ported to tablets, that's your prerogative, (we all know you have an irrational hatred of supposed "phone games") but your dismissal of two games you haven't even played just further validates my opinion that a GOTY poll should somehow take into account which which games voters actually played.

I haven't played DA:I- based on my experience with DA2 and reviews I've read I'm pretty sure I wouldn't like it. Same with FO4- didn't like 3 so not touching 4. Still, I wouldn't feel comfortable claiming a game I never played is terrible / doesn't deserve to be high on a best of list.

Originally Posted by joxer View Post
Forget tastes, concentrate on technical aspect in all these games.
So we should just award GOTY to the game that has a best graphics / production values? What do you even mean by technical aspects?
daveyd is offline

daveyd

daveyd's Avatar
Keeper of the Watch

#16

Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: PA
Posts: 826

Default 

July 10th, 2016, 23:14
Originally Posted by felipepepe View Post
Heroine's Quest & Quest for Infamy both follow the blueprint of Quest for Glory, a classic RPG/Adventure game hybrid that has more RPG elements than many "true RPGs".

Also, if you start removing games due to sub-genres, where do you end? Do you include FPS/RPG hybrids like Deus Ex, or no? Fallout: New Vegas? Alpha Protocol?

Sub-divisions only lead to a slippery slope.
I never considered Quest for glory as a CRPG, my bet is it's more a game adventure game fans enjoy than CRPG fans.

I agree sub division can't be managed, my comment was pinpointing that the vote system could have favored sub genres.
Sanglon is offline

Sanglon

Watchdog

#17

Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 170

Default 

July 11th, 2016, 00:04
Originally Posted by daveyd View Post
I haven't played DA:I- based on my experience with DA2 and reviews I've read I'm pretty sure I wouldn't like it. Same with FO4- didn't like 3 so not touching 4. Still, I wouldn't feel comfortable claiming a game I never played is terrible / doesn't deserve to be high on a best of list.
I have no good words about both DA2 and FO3.
While pretty much everyone will agree that DA2 was a mediocre sequel, there are many people here who adore FO3. I've said numerous times that I hated it.

But I liked DA3 (except it's horrible filler) and FO4. Both are different from their predecessors.
One thing all of these games have in common though. DA2, DA3, FO3 and FO4.
None of them is basic enough to work on a phone. None was made with a plan to put it on phone.
Originally Posted by daveyd View Post
So we should just award GOTY to the game that has a best graphics / production values? What do you even mean by technical aspects?
No. If I ment graphics whoring then GOTY would be Order 1886. Not only it's not GOTY, it's on everyone's the worst game list.
--
Toka Koka
joxer is offline

joxer

joxer's Avatar
The Smoker
Original Sin 1 & 2 Donor

#18

Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 12,365

Default 

July 11th, 2016, 00:10
At least DA2 combats was good stuff, I enjoyed DAI and overall more than DA2 but for combats the series continued drop down in quality and it's not a tactical view that makes any difference. It's still much better combats than in any Elder Scroll, but the quality still drop down. FO3 is good stuff it's just not the follow up of FO1&2 but anybody that would believed it, could only be some alien freshly landed on earth.
Sanglon is offline

Sanglon

Watchdog

#19

Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 170

Default 

July 11th, 2016, 00:24
Originally Posted by daveyd View Post
The main problem with most GOTY polls is the games that are more well known games have an inherent advantage over the more obscure (and thus less likely to be played) titles. Games released near the end of the year are also at a disadvantage because many haven't had a chance to play them, are waiting for a sale, etc.

IIRC, in RPGWatch GOTY polls we simply choose our 1st 2nd and 3rd favorite RPG and then RPGs are ranked based on which got the most favorite votes. From what Felipepe is saying, it sounds as if the Codex GOTY takes into consideration how many have actually played the game. I'd actually prefer something like that because as he said it shouldn't just be a popularity contest.

I haven't played all 2015 RPGs yet, but I don't think Witcher 3 was the best as our GOTY poll would indicate. It's good but has many shortcomings as well.

I'd definitely rank Age of Decadence, Legends of Eisenwald, and SR:HK above TW3 (and way above PoE), yet none of those games even made the top three. Simarly, I disagree with the results of our 2014 poll. There's no accounting for taste

I'm probably be more inclined to vote for an obscure game that I feel deserves recognition over a popular title, even if it's more rough around the edges or technically simple. Choosing favorites or rating games on a numerical scale is pretty hard, anyway… i.e., Should you take budget / scope into consideration? Compare it to previous games in a series or to the genre as a whole? If I'm really enjoying a game overall, I think I'm inclined to overlook or downplay flaws. It's only if I revisit the game later or other's impressions that I really acknowledge them.
I think the opposite problem occurs when you go the other way. I actually played 12 games that came out in 2015, and neither TW3 or FO4, and I enjoyed Pillars of Eternity the most, and I'd probably put Age of Decadence as my 5th choice pick, behind Underrail, Shadowrun and Legends of Eisenwald so it just shows that tastes vary. The problem with going the opposite way is that you go with games that the vast majority of people on this website probably wouldn't enjoy and wouldn't bother playing (Like Voidspire Tactics). So you have a small group of people determining say the number 3 game, and if someone takes that suggestion at face value they might (like in my case) be very dissapointed by it. Probably some happy medium would be best, but it would probably be very difficult to make a system that would reach it.
The same problem exists with steam reviews. Sometimes a game gets very positive reviews from a small group and then they begin to sink as more people take a chance on the game, because its not really appealing to people who are not its core fanbase.
forgottenlor is offline

forgottenlor

forgottenlor's Avatar
Keeper of the Watch

#20

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Vienna, Austria
Posts: 1,041
RPGWatch Forums » Games » General RPG » Neo Scavenger and RPG Codex Goy 2014 (Rant)
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:10.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright by RPGWatch