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RPGWatch Forums » Comments » News Comments » Rampant Coyote - Indie Roundtable #1

Default Rampant Coyote - Indie Roundtable #1

February 12th, 2008, 22:53
Rampant Coyote Jay Barnson has kicked off the first of an ongoing series of roundtables on indie RPGs. The collection of talent gathered is impressive with Jeff Vogel, Vince D. Weller, Thomas Riegsecker and Jason Compton all participating as well as Josh Engebretson (Prairie Games, Minions of Mirth), JRPG specialist Amanda Fitch (Aveyond) and more. The first question is Why Indie?
Question: Why Indie RPGs? The last eighteen months or so have brought gamers plenty of role-playing games and expansions for computer and console from mainstream developers. And there are tons of Massively Multiplayer Online RPGs (MMORPGs) that are 'scratching the itch' for RPG fans and formerly non-gamers alike. And then there are literally thousands of fan-made modules for the Neverwinter Nights games. In this kind of environment, what does a comparatively low-budget indie computer RPG have to offer the player?
Vince D. Weller, Iron Tower Studio ("Age of Decadence"):
I don't understand the question. Maybe if I rephrase it a bit….

Thank God that Mask of the Betrayer and The Witcher were released, because otherwise it would have been the worst eighteen months or so for the RPG community, unless you count all those shitty action games with stats like Dungeon Siege: Broken World and Titan Quest. In unrelated news, the industry is still obsessed with so-called MMORPGs that are scratching the itch to grind and LARP for people who don't have anything better to do. And then there are at least 10 fan-made NWN modules that are worth playing. How do you crazy indie developers deal with all that?

Well, first, I don't think that the market is over-saturated (or even saturated) with RPGs, second, being an RPG fan myself I don't think that there is a such a thing as too many good RPGs.

As for what the indies have to offer, we can offer players things they won't find anywhere else. Mainstream equivalents of games like Geneforge, Avernum, Mount & Blade, Eschalon or Broken Hourglass aren't in development, yet there are people who want to play such games.

Overall, indies offer originality and creativity. I'm not saying that mainstream developers aren't creative. Obsidian is loaded with top quality, mind blowing talent - Avellone, Sawyer, Mitsoda, Saunders, Ziets, and many others and Mask of the Betrayer proves that beyond any reasonable doubts. Unfortunately, the publishers control the industry and at the moment they want MOAR action, like totally next-generation RPGs. So, if you, dear reader, want something different, well, welcome to Club Indie. We hope you'll enjoy your stay.
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February 12th, 2008, 22:53
While I'll be the first to admit that Indie games have much to offer gamers across the board, I find Vince D. Weller's comment:

"…unless you count all those shitty action games with stats like Dungeon Siege: Broken World and Titan Quest."

Arrogant and completely uncalled for and in my case completely un-justified.

I'm currently playing Eschalon Book 1 (bought the full version) and I'm enjoying myself completely in it's simple game mechanics, yet deep storyline, skill set and class system.

That said Titan Quest is a simply "fantastic" ARPG, one that will continue to remain on my computer for years to come I'm sure. And perhaps I'm in the minority but I also enjoyed DS2 and thought the game a large step up from the original in almost all ways.

I've played quite a bit of NWN2 as well…but I don't ALWAYS want a deep RPG with a lot of dialog and text to wade through. Sometimes I just want to hop on the comp and kill some demons or other said "bad guys" of the same ilk. Maybe I only have 20-30 min. but in that time I can enjoy myself and feel that I accomplished "something" if only a head count of evil critters left in my wake

So for me, regardless of how good of a rpg his "Age of Decadence" actually winds up to be, it will be tainted by his pompousness and asinine comment and attitude. So unless the demo truly grabs me and knocks me off my feet it's safe to assume that at this point it will be a game I skip, for principle's sake.

If he happens across this post, perhaps he'll realize that there are MANY different kinds of games, for many different occasions and tastes that have their worth and merritt.

'Nuff said (me thinks)

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February 12th, 2008, 23:06
Don't let VD rattle your cage too much—that's his trademark style. And I actually think he said in his last interview that Diablo2 had brilliant design.

I'm with you all the way on Titan Quest, though. It lives on my hard drive and gets a play through fairly regularly, even though my addiction phase has thankfully abated.

I think Jason Compton's and Stephen Peeler's response to this question are both excellent. All of these people are creative and dedicated—it's great to be able to listen in to thier mindset in articles like this.

Where there's smoke, there's mirrors.
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February 12th, 2008, 23:11
Originally Posted by magerette View Post
I think Jason Compton's and Stephen Peeler's response to this question are both excellent. All of these people are creative and dedicated—it's great to be able to listen in to thier mindset in articles like this.
Agreed…
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February 12th, 2008, 23:44
Here we go again… God forbid someone expresses other then "all games are good in their own ways, even Dungeon Lords" opinion. Opinion is a clear sign of devil worshiping and arrogance. HOW DARE YOU TO HAVE AN OPINION!!!!

Anyway…

Originally Posted by Roland View Post
While I'll be the first to admit that Indie games have much to offer gamers across the board, I find Vince D. Weller's comment:

"…unless you count all those shitty action games with stats like Dungeon Siege: Broken World and Titan Quest."

Arrogant and completely uncalled for and in my case completely un-justified.
In your opinion. You can continue playing Titan Quest now.

That said Titan Quest is a simply "fantastic" ARPG, one that will continue to remain on my computer for years to come I'm sure. And perhaps I'm in the minority but I also enjoyed DS2 and thought the game a large step up from the original in almost all ways.
It was a brilliant game that set standards Titan Quest failed to hit.

…but I don't ALWAYS want a deep RPG with a lot of dialog and text to wade through. Sometimes I just want to hop on the comp and kill some demons or other said "bad guys" of the same ilk. Maybe I only have 20-30 min. but in that time I can enjoy myself and feel that I accomplished "something" if only a head count of evil critters left in my wake
*sigh* I hope you realize that just because you enjoy loading up a game for 20 min to kill a few monsters, it doesn't make games with monsters good RPGs.

That's like saying that Pearl Harbor isn't a shitty movie just because you liked the bombing scene.

So for me, regardless of how good of a rpg his "Age of Decadence" actually winds up to be, it will be tainted by his pompousness and asinine comment and attitude.
I have a feeling that you can easily give me a few pointers in the "pompous and asinine" department, Roland.

So unless the demo truly grabs me and knocks me off my feet it's safe to assume that at this point it will be a game I skip, for principle's sake.
I always respect a man of principles, even as idiotic as the above.

If he happens across this post, perhaps he'll realize that there are MANY different kinds of games, for many different occasions and tastes that have their worth and merritt.
What heresy is this? There is only one kind of RPGs and I even wrote an article to prove it!
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February 13th, 2008, 00:13
I thought this was the Watch, not the Codex!!!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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February 13th, 2008, 00:17
My apologies, good sir. An honest mistake!
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February 13th, 2008, 07:11
LOL - well, he may be very printable and funny, but VDweller doesn't strike me as being any more pompous as some of the mainstream RPG designers I see interviewed from time to time. Granted, they are supposed to be pimping their games and should be convinced its the greatest thing since sliced bread, but sometimes their level of arrogance and condescending attitude towards not just past RPGs, but the fans of those games, really chaps me.

A lot of what I hear called "evolution" is really nothing but a bad case of playing "follow the leader" with a little bit of leapfrog thrown in. I hear mainstream devs talk about innovation, but then they all proclaim it as being "MORE PRETTY PICTURES, FEWER BORING WORDS!" Whereas amongst the indies you have guys like Steven Peeler who takes the core gameplay of Diablo and turns the whole thing on its ear.
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February 13th, 2008, 15:20
[cynical]

Originally Posted by RampantCoyote View Post
"MORE PRETTY PICTURES, FEWER BORING WORDS!"
Sounds like Hypnosis [via the video screen] to me.

[/cynical]

Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction. (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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February 13th, 2008, 18:56
Originally Posted by VDweller View Post
God forbid someone expresses other then "all games are good in their own ways, even Dungeon Lords" opinion.
Now you've gone to far, you bastard! How dare you mock the greatness that is DUNGEON LORDS!!!! I'll have your hide for that…


Seriously, though, VD and Roland, may I suggest it just comes down to a distinction between what makes a good game versus what makes a good RPG? Titan Quest can be a great game while being a weak RPG, no?
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February 13th, 2008, 20:17
For example Hellgate London was sold as the successor of some RPG (even forgot which one) and that made me angry, when I played the demo.
Hellgate was sold as a successor to Diablo 2, bk. I wouldn't call that an RPG either, though. But Hellgate made a lot of people angry anyway, IIRC.

I don't know what the particular hate is for Titan Quest. It was one of the better action rpgs to come along for me, but you get used to the slaps in the face if you play arpgs—at least VD is amusing about it. It really wasn't his point here anyway—he was listing the actual rpgs that came out last year( of which TQ is NOT one) and calling into question why everyone thought it was an overwhelmingly great year. At least that's what I got out of it.

I've given up trying to understand what makes one game "good" and and another very similar game "crap" anyway. You will never change people's opinions about a game they love/hate. It's too subjective.

Where there's smoke, there's mirrors.
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February 13th, 2008, 20:39
Originally Posted by bkrueger View Post
Did, for example, Titan Quest claim to be an RPG? As far as I know it didn't.
(On the box of my version the word doesn't appear, that of the expansion claims to be an action RPG, which is correct. )
Would you agree if I say that both the advertisement of the game and the game itself used the image of an RPG in order to be better sold among gamers ?

The point I mean is that it appears to many as an RPG - therefore an image must've been erected to which the gamers appealed - that of an RPG.

Imho.

The high art of diplomacy is to NOT say sometjing … but implicitely or within a certain context imply/say something …

It's like a company saying "no comment" on a rumor they just could've said to be wrong, too.

Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction. (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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February 13th, 2008, 21:37
The problem may by more about young people, who never see anything but action games and may then believe, that action RPGs are RPGs, so they never know real RPGs. (And that might be a reason why hardcore RPG developers don't like action RPGs.)
That sums up a lot of my issues. Not that I dislike ARPGs - most of my favorites probably fall in that category (even my all-time favorite, Ultima 7, ventures into that territory).

But I dread the tofu-flavored mono-genre that industry "leaders" point to as some kind of glorious future.
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February 13th, 2008, 22:33
Originally Posted by bkrueger View Post
The problem may by more about young people, who never see anything but action games and may then believe, that action RPGs are RPGs, so they never know real RPGs.
I proposed this actually a few years ago already.

And I suspect that the P&P area might also be affected by this.

In fact, part of it is an self-fulfilling prophecy:

- We don't think people are interested in hardcore RPGs.
- Therefore we don't produce any
- What we see now is that people don't buy hardcore RPGs.
- [What these idiots fail to see is that point 3 is only valid because hardcore RPGs aren't produced anymore.]

Or, as I put it about MS Office (developed in 2001) :

"Why do you teach MS Office ?"
"Because everyone uses it."

"Why do you use MS Office ?"
"Because I've learned nothing else."

Self-fulfilling prophecy.

Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction. (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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February 13th, 2008, 23:06
Originally Posted by VDweller View Post
Here we go again… God forbid someone expresses other then "all games are good in their own ways, even Dungeon Lords" opinion. Opinion is a clear sign of devil worshiping and arrogance. HOW DARE YOU TO HAVE AN OPINION!!!!
]
wow VDweller, must of touched a nerve there it seems.

I'm all for "opinions' be shared, hell everyone has one and some are bigger than others.

That said, I stick to mine when saying that your comment :
"…unless you count all those shitty action games with stats like Dungeon Siege: Broken World and Titan Quest."

was rude and uncalled for. You obviously think of yourself as an educated individual, so why stoop to base vernacular simply to imply that you didn't enjoy or appreciate those kinds of games?

Oh could it be that you were trying to convey more than just an opinion?

lol whatever…

Your reply and the way you choose once again to "express" yourself completely validate my first impression of you and the kind of person I believe you to be. (did i say good or bad? ) heh but i can bet you could hazard a guess now couldn't you.

I could care less that you didn't like those games you mentioned, or any ARPG's for that matter. But to flippantly refer to them as "shitty" games I do have to call that remark for what it very obviously was/is and that dear sir /cough (sorry but that made me throw up a bit in my throat) was pompous, and arrogant, and crude and uncalled for.

Lots of time, effort, care and dedication went into both those games, far too much for you to so callously toss them under foot and belittle them.

I'd have the same attitude, same words and dislike for anyone who had the very same to say about Eschalon or Depths of Peril or the Avernum games…actually for any game that it was obviously shone that someone put their heart and effort into it to make.

There's simply much better ways to say you didn't care for some thing personally than to call them "shitty"

In fact unless a game could not be played or progressed through at all because of poor work or structure, I'd hesitate to use a term even close to your crude remark.

So just to make sure you follow me, I didn't chide you on your "opinion", I criticized the way you chose to express it.

Clear? I hope so

Cheers

ps: good luck on your endeavors, I'd hate to see a disgruntled customer or peer choose to judge your work with a similar crude eye
Last edited by Roland; February 13th, 2008 at 23:31.
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February 13th, 2008, 23:49
Originally Posted by Roland View Post
wow VDweller, must of touched a nerve there it seems.
You sure did. Did you see how angry I got there? I was shouting and typing at the same time and then I smashed my keyboard and had to buy a new one. You guys get me every time. EVERY TIME! (Oh, shit! Here we go again… another keyboard is gone…)

That said, I stick to mine when saying that your comment :
"…unless you count all those shitty action games with stats like Dungeon Siege: Broken World and Titan Quest."

was rude and uncalled for. You obviously think of yourself as an educated individual, so why stoop to base vernacular simply to imply that you didn't enjoy or appreciate those kinds of games?
I like all kinds of RPGs. I played and enjoyed Diablo, Diablo 2, Sacred, Fate, and a trackload of other action RPGs. I played and was very disappointed in games like both Dungeon Siege games (I really hoped the second one will be better) and Titan Quest. Not because I hate action RPGs and unable to appreciate their monster-slaughtering beauty, but because the design sucked ass, metaphorically speaking, of course

I could care less that you didn't like those games you mentioned, or any ARPG's for that matter. But to flippantly refer to them as "shitty" games I do have to call that remark for what it very obviously was/is and that dear sir /cough (sorry but that made me throw up a bit in my throat) was pompous, and arrogant, and crude and uncalled for.

Lots of time, effort, care and dedication went into both those games, far too much for you to so callously toss them under foot and belittle them.
Dear Roland, who give a fuck about how much time, love, and affection went into these games? Does it make these games better? No. Does it increase my enjoyment? No. Does it overshadow their numerous and idiotic flaws? No. Then why are you bringing it up?

As for your strong belief that these games are great or awesome or whatever it is you think they are, what are your arguments? Can you present a few paragraphs explaining why Dungeon Siege: Broken World is not in fact a horribly shitty game that even GameSpot gave 6.3? Perhaps, the strengths of your arguments will help me to broaden my horizons and accept what I couldn't before.

[ps: good luck on your endeavors, I'd hate to see a disgruntled customer or peer choose to judge your work with a similar crude eye
It's a free country.
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February 14th, 2008, 00:33
Originally Posted by VDweller View Post
Dear Roland, who give a fuck about how much time, love, and affection went into these games? Does it make these games better? No. Does it increase my enjoyment? No. Does it overshadow their numerous and idiotic flaws? No. Then why are you bringing it up?

As for your strong belief that these games are great or awesome or whatever it is you think they are, what are your arguments? Can you present a few paragraphs explaining why Dungeon Siege: Broken World is not in fact a horribly shitty game that even GameSpot gave 6.3? Perhaps, the strengths of your arguments will help me to broaden my horizons and accept what I couldn't before.


It's a free country.
Indeed it is

I believe this line here :

"who give a fuck about how much time, love, and affection went into these games?"

Is your most "telling" to date (that i'm aware of, i'm sure there's more strewn across the web-universe heh)

I'm not going to continue this little game were having. I've spoken my mind (opinion) in what I think is a concise and clear manner. What do I get back? Expletives lol Bravo!

I never stated with word or intent that those game were the end all and best ever created. I simply stated that they were deserving of much better than being called "shitty" in my opinion. I've played them both and I've enjoyed my time with them. I've spent about 8 hours so far with Eschalon and have enjoyed my time there as well.

I've read your comments here as well as a few interviews you've had and have no argument in the fact that TB games can be very fun and rewarding experiences.

Where we do differ is on what we consider is a "good" game and what is not. If I play a game and have "fun" doing so, and I'm able to actually keep the game up and running, well to me that's a good game. If I found it relaxing, compelling, fun, challenging, intriguing, sometimes even frustrating (puzzles and such), if I was "entertained" then yes, for me that game would be deemed GOOD.

It's you, your attitude and callus manner that I consider, not so good. Talented, perhaps…I've looked at your project and it does indeed look to be well inspired by all involved. Well I guess I should say it "looks" nice from the screen shots I've looked at thus far.

I wonder if the game will reflect your seething, derogatory and contemptuous tone, or if that's something you reserve for your potential customer base alone?

If the game's dialog is anything like yourself, as ill mannered, base and rude; well then it will be interesting to see exactly just what kind of gamer is attracted to that.

Time will tell I guess.

Our debate is over (sad i know), but in all honesty I have better things to do…much like I'd imagine you do as well, with a game to make. Making you lurk here on the forums, waiting to dissect my every post paragraph by paragraph…well that would be selfish of me

So I set you free. I will not reply to another of your posts no matter how heated or baited you try.

Perhaps you'll find the extra time beneficial, bent towards completing that revolutionary TB "real" without stats RPG that your niche audience has gone niche-less for far too long

I will say this in closing, I find it amazing that a Vice President, Sales & Marketing person like yourself,for any product needing contact with the public or others in general would be…well, like you.

I do find that simply astounding, enough so that it makes me chuckle.

So thanks for the laugh, good luck with the game, I do wish it well in spite of your assumed influence upon it.

A "good" TB game IS hard to find.

Now I'm off to lofter pursuits like ridding myself of poison in Eschalon…or will it be killing a sayter in Titan Quest?

Either way will be fine

Regards
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February 14th, 2008, 01:47
Originally Posted by Roland View Post
Indeed it is

I believe this line here :

"who give a fuck about how much time, love, and affection went into these games?"

Is your most "telling" to date (that i'm aware of, i'm sure there's more strewn across the web-universe heh)
A lot more, my very perceptive friend. Anyway, what is wrong with this comment? Take Master of Orion 3, for example. The developers really tried. They made the game with love and it took them a long time to do that. Unfortunately, they were incompetent and the very awful game they made killed the great series. So, again, why should love and affection be a factor?

I put a lot of those into AoD, but you know what, the game may still suck because I overlooked or underestimated something or just wasn't good enough to make a good game. Neither my passion nor time invested would matter then.

I'm not going to continue this little game were having. I've spoken my mind (opinion) in what I think is a concise and clear manner.
You said that you disagree with me (that part was very clear) without explaining why or presenting your position. If that's all you have, fine. If you'd like to add something, now is the time.

I simply stated that they were deserving of much better than being called "shitty" in my opinion. I've played them both and I've enjoyed my time with them. I've spent about 8 hours so far with Eschalon and have enjoyed my time there as well.
You do realize that "game X deserves better than to be called shitty because I had a lot of fun with it" is not an argument?

It's you, your attitude and callus manner that I consider, not so good.
I'll try to learn to live with that knowledge.

Talented, perhaps…I've looked at your project and it does indeed look to be well inspired by all involved. Well I guess I should say it "looks" nice from the screen shots I've looked at thus far.
Well, join our forums then. A boy who thinks that AoD "looks nice" can't be that bad, can he?

I wonder if the game will reflect your seething, derogatory and contemptuous tone…
One can only hope.

If the game's dialog is anything like yourself, as ill mannered, base and rude; well then it will be interesting to see exactly just what kind of gamer is attracted to that.
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/

So I set you free. I will not reply to another of your posts no matter how heated or baited you try.
It's easier to disappear than to stick around and actually present and defend your position, I suppose. Best of luck and all that.

Perhaps you'll find the extra time beneficial, bent towards completing that revolutionary TB "real" without stats RPG that your niche audience has gone niche-less for far too long
Without stats?

I will say this in closing, I find it amazing that a Vice President, Sales & Marketing person like yourself,for any product needing contact with the public or others in general would be…well, like you.
Be a doll and read the last post.
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1028
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February 14th, 2008, 04:04
Hey VD, thanks for the link to your RPS interview, somehow I missed it before. It was a hoot, as were the comments afterwards!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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February 14th, 2008, 04:11
Thanks. Dhruin covered it:
http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3813
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