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April 28th, 2008, 00:23
Originally Posted by Kendrik View Post
but if we are to judge descision made by polocie officers then don't simply read what is in the papers or in the news but consider what the officers were facing and thinking at the time.
Errrr…. we have no way of knowing what those officers were facing and thinking at the time only what they said SAID they were facing and thinking while trying to explain away why they fired 50 shots at 3 unarmed men.
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April 28th, 2008, 01:07
Did those guys comply with the police directives, zahratsustra? According to the story, they did not. There's not much more to say. They didn't deserve to catch 50 bullets, but they certainly didn't use much common sense, either.

@corwin- if you're so trashed that you can't think sensibly when staring down a service revolver, I guess I won't shed a tear. Admittedly, I have very little sympathy for that excuse, though.

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April 28th, 2008, 07:14
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Did those guys comply with the police directives, zahratsustra? According to the story, they did not. There's not much more to say. They didn't deserve to catch 50 bullets, but they certainly didn't use much common sense, either.
Yup. Lawful Neutral.
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April 28th, 2008, 16:38
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
They didn't deserve to catch 50 bullets, but they certainly didn't use much common sense, either.
They were young and (most probably) drunk so nope, not much common sense. Still, not much of capital offence either.

BTW did you know that average sex ratio at birth is 1.7 male births per one female birth (1.6 in developed world)? Of course it gets equalised as time go by because of highier male mortality ratio.
So let' just call it a part of natural process and we all can sleep easily…..
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April 28th, 2008, 18:04
*queue classic joke*
Why do married men die before their wives? Because they want to.
*my apologies*

PJ, I'd like to dig a little deeper into that lawful neutral evaluation, but I'll move it to the appropriate thread. It might be a while before I get there, though.

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April 28th, 2008, 19:16
After hearing all about the case, as well as hearing some 'inside stuff' from a guy I know that is an NYPD officer, I'm not surprised by the verdict. Not saying they should have gotten off completely, and the guy that fired thirty one shots should never hold a weapon again, but it really does seem like the prosecution failed to prove their case. The witnesses they put up where often not credible and showed a lot of disrespect towards the NYPD as a whole and the justice system as a whole. With some of their comments, I would have had a hard time believing them 100%.

I just hope that the feds keep their nose out of it. The founding fathers were against double jeopardy for very good reasons, and the end arounds that our legal system has exploited make me sick.

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April 28th, 2008, 19:36
Drink and drugs.

Bah ….. lets get one thing straight - you choose to get high or drunk. (very few people get administered substances against their will - I'm talking about drugs that get you high - not date rape drugs)

You also choose to carry a gun/knife.

If you choose to do both (all three) then you must take responsabilty for either your actions or the conseqences. If police are faced with a high/drunk person attacking another person that action needs to be taken. The vast majority of police officer will not "go for the kill" but that person needs to be incapacitated whilst minimising further harm to others.

Consider if you will a drug crazed gunman shooting random shots. What should the police do? Shout to passers-by "Don't worry he's not in control of his actions?" or consider delivering the death message to the family of the innocent bystanders (or police officer). "sorry your loved one was killed but the suspect was not in control of his actions because of a self induced drug frenzy so we didn't want to hurt him".

Bottom line if you are a real and imediate danger to the general public then you need to be dealt with. Officer will consider all the options and use the most appropriate response that a) uses minimum force b) does not expose the public to further risk and c) Does not expose the officer to further risk. Point C) is always the one people don't get. Mad Drugs man is shooting randomly why the hell should a police officer risk his own life to get close enough to wrestle him and cuff him simply because the offender was stupid enough to take enough drugs and lose control whilst being in possesion of a gun. Simply he/she shouldn't, They do risk their lives already everyday they are identified as police so please don't suggest they should risk themselves ever further because of someone elses selfish stupidity.

One more thing most police also have the suspect's welfare in mind when doing things as well it just in their minds it rightfully comes under the protection of others and themsleves on the list of priorities

/and relax. Sorry tough day at work

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April 28th, 2008, 20:29
Originally Posted by Kendrik View Post
Drink and drugs.

Bah ….. lets get one thing straight - you choose to get high or drunk. (very few people get administered substances against their will - I'm talking about drugs that get you high - not date rape drugs)

You also choose to carry a gun/knife.

If you choose to do both (all three) then you must take responsabilty for either your actions or the conseqences. If police are faced with a high/drunk person attacking another person that action needs to be taken. The vast majority of police officer will not "go for the kill" but that person needs to be incapacitated whilst minimising further harm to others.

Consider if you will a drug crazed gunman shooting random shots. What should the police do? Shout to passers-by "Don't worry he's not in control of his actions?" or consider delivering the death message to the family of the innocent bystanders (or police officer). "sorry your loved one was killed but the suspect was not in control of his actions because of a self induced drug frenzy so we didn't want to hurt him".

Bottom line if you are a real and imediate danger to the general public then you need to be dealt with. Officer will consider all the options and use the most appropriate response that a) uses minimum force b) does not expose the public to further risk and c) Does not expose the officer to further risk. Point C) is always the one people don't get. Mad Drugs man is shooting randomly why the hell should a police officer risk his own life to get close enough to wrestle him and cuff him simply because the offender was stupid enough to take enough drugs and lose control whilst being in possesion of a gun. Simply he/she shouldn't, They do risk their lives already everyday they are identified as police so please don't suggest they should risk themselves ever further because of someone elses selfish stupidity.

One more thing most police also have the suspect's welfare in mind when doing things as well it just in their minds it rightfully comes under the protection of others and themsleves on the list of priorities

/and relax. Sorry tough day at work
Well said.

I have absolutely nothing to add (and I tried) but everything I typed up you had already said. Other than that the cops aren't supermen and women. Their trained humans to deal with these situations whether lethal force is called for or a night stick or a verbal warning. They are trained to know and then the media comes in second guessing their job by saying oh poor bad guy. Now if it is a story about corruption or excessive force (which it isn't a car is still a lethal weapon) then I would say blow the lid off the story, maybe.

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April 28th, 2008, 20:49
Kendrik, I understand where you're coming from and I agree with many of your points, but this is a very racially polarized case in a sequence of "police vs African Americans" explosions here ( starting with Rodney King and going on and on) and you have to see it in context.

It's a culture clash in my eyes—Sean Bell was living in his culture(and as far as I can tell from a quick read, at the time the police entered the picture wasn't actually carrying a gun, committing a crime or basically any more hopped up than any other guy having a bachelor party at a strip club) and the cops were living in theirs.

There are things wrong with both cultures—mostly in this instance coming down to a bunch of tough-talking machismo on the one hand , and the "be awed by my big gun" stuff on the other in my female opinion—but there's not much doubt to me that this was way over-reacting on the cop end at the time of occurrence, and now it's way over-reacting on the media end, and among the black community, it's a knee-jerk outrage response with police brutality real or perceived being a kind of gunpowdery issue for a lot of deeper problems that stem out of the race conundrum here.

Hope that makes it a little clearer—though of course I should add, that's my personal view only and my facts may need to be corrected by those more up on the story.

Edit: Hi, skavenhorde—posted on top of you. Excuse my chaotic good interjection

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April 28th, 2008, 21:12
Five of the seven officers investigating the club were involved in the shooting. Detective Paul Headley fired one round, Officer Michael Carey fired three, Officer Marc Cooper fired four, Officer Gescard Isnora fired eleven, and veteran officer Michael Oliver emptied two full magazines, firing 31 shots from a 9mm handgun and pausing to reload at least once.[13]Officer Michael Oliver fired thirty one times. [23][24][25]

An autopsy showed Bell was struck four times in the neck and torso.[26] Guzman, 31, was shot 19 times[27] and Benefield, 23, who was in the back seat, was hit three times. Both men were taken to Mary Immaculate Hospital; at the time of admission Guzman was listed in critical condition and Benefield was in stable condition. Guzman and Benefield would ultimately survive the shooting.[13] Benefield was released from the hospital on 5 December 2006,[28] while Guzman was released on 25 January 2007.[29] Surveillance cameras at the Port Authority's Jamaica AirTrain station a half block away from the shooting site recorded one of the bullets fired by the officers shattering through the station's glass window and narrowly missing a civilian and two Port Authority patrolmen who were standing on the station's elevated platform.

Obviously some officers are more professional than others. I'll be bailing out on this note because I'm not deluded enough to believe anyone will change their opinion on this. To each their own.
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April 28th, 2008, 21:25
@magerette- kinda hard to play the race card when 2 of the 3 defendants (cops) were also black.

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April 28th, 2008, 21:46
Not really. Everyone else seems to be doing it without any problems.

EDIT: Oops-forgot I needed to suck up to you and get you to go out next week and pretend you're a Democrat(I know—it's degrading…) and vote for Obama (or Hopey, as the Wonkettes call him)—he needs your Hoosierness badly and you know the chance to vote 'gainst Ms Inevitable might never otherwise come your way.

Where there's smoke, there's mirrors.
Last edited by magerette; April 28th, 2008 at 21:58.
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April 28th, 2008, 21:56
Originally Posted by magerette View Post
Kendrik, I understand where you're coming from and I agree with many of your points, but this is a very racially polarized case in a sequence of "police vs African Americans" explosions here ( starting with Rodney King and going on and on) and you have to see it in context.

It's a culture clash in my eyes—Sean Bell was living in his culture(and as far as I can tell from a quick read, at the time the police entered the picture wasn't actually carrying a gun, committing a crime or basically any more hopped up than any other guy having a bachelor party at a strip club) and the cops were living in theirs.

There are things wrong with both cultures—mostly in this instance coming down to a bunch of tough-talking machismo on the one hand , and the "be awed by my big gun" stuff on the other in my female opinion—but there's not much doubt to me that this was way over-reacting on the cop end at the time of occurrence, and now it's way over-reacting on the media end, and among the black community, it's a knee-jerk outrage response with police brutality real or perceived being a kind of gunpowdery issue for a lot of deeper problems that stem out of the race conundrum here.

Hope that makes it a little clearer—though of course I should add, that's my personal view only and my facts may need to be corrected by those more up on the story.

Edit: Hi, skavenhorde—posted on top of you. Excuse my chaotic good interjection
And I will not try to defend any police officer (or person) who is racist. I am not niave enough to know that Racism isn't still alive and well in all sectors of the community (police included) and if there is any racial motivation in a police officers actions then they should by thrown from the force without a pension. However there are certain members of various ethnic communities who claim any police action against black people (for example) is racist. We must remember that just as there are racist police officers there are also black criminals. (again just using black as an example). Again the media are quick to highlight possible racially motivated police action but very slow to point out measure taken to build trust in ethnic communities.

I do thinkthe police have a lot of bidges to build in terms of gaining trust in these communities and hopefully racist elements in the police are being hounded out.

Another poster mentioned "unarmed men" - do not make the mistake that just because a person doesn't have a gun or knife they are unarmed. A car is a lethal weapon in the wrong hands and can kill youas surely as a gun. I didn't really want to get into a debate about the rights and wrongs of that particular case (then why did you post I hear you all cry) but more wanted to comment on the general perceptions of the police and how easy it is to make comment whilst sitting on the outside looking in.

One extreme example of this is when police officers are trained in self defence they are taught to shout "Stay Back" and never "Back Off" …. the reason….. "Back Off" sounds too much like "F**k off" and if a police officer was heard shouting that it would be all over the press in minutes (at least in the UK).

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April 28th, 2008, 22:57
Originally Posted by magerette View Post
EDIT: Oops-forgot I needed to suck up to you and get you to go out next week and pretend you're a Democrat(I know—it's degrading…) and vote for Obama (or Hopey, as the Wonkettes call him)—he needs your Hoosierness badly and you know the chance to vote 'gainst Ms Inevitable might never otherwise come your way.
Sorry, can't help you out. Us heartless rightwingers in Indiana aren't allowed to participate in the Democratic primary. With all the campaign bloodletting we've discussed elsewhere, I'm starting to think the Republicans might actually have a chance to win. If that's really the case, I'd rather face the Ice Queen, to be honest.

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April 28th, 2008, 23:27
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Sorry, can't help you out. Us heartless rightwingers in Indiana aren't allowed to participate in the Democratic primary. With all the campaign bloodletting we've discussed elsewhere, I'm starting to think the Republicans might actually have a chance to win. If that's really the case, I'd rather face the Ice Queen, to be honest.
So I suppose dressing up the dog is out of the question?

I don't know—I think she's morphing into a Republican personally—(though it's hard to see the tentacles under the flowing pantsuit jacket.) And if the Rev Wright keeps on hallelujahing along at the current rate, you/we probably will be facing her either in regal first place or as part of some nightmare ticket…well, my nightmare, anyway.

@Kendrik—again, I'm in agreement with you. Just wanted to try to point out a little context about why its hard for a lot of people to view the case objectively here.

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April 29th, 2008, 00:15
Well, the Supreme Court upheld Indiana's new photo ID requirement today, so Pisspot might need a good shave (and more than a few pounds) to attempt it. And, of course, there's the whole "wake up" thing….
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April 29th, 2008, 02:13
Yes, he's far from looking like the political activist type—or even the alive type. I'll just have to hope that all the Democrats in Indiana share your basic values under the surface. (If there are any—I read somewhere that the last Dem president that carried Indiana was FDR in 1936…)

Corwin I know I'm driving you crazy with the off topic, so I'll quit before you have to split off a thread about dogs impersonating voters.

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April 29th, 2008, 04:17
Well, to kind of bring this back around so we don't get in trouble, Andy's really the ideal American voter and media "receiver". He's practically blind, nearly deaf, habitually lazy, averse to any sort of thinking, and willfully ignorant of the world beyond his various beds. Even though he's approaching 16 years old, he'll still demand handouts from the establishment, and if a cop ordered him to do anything except sleep, he'd probably end up full of bullets, too. Yep, Andy'd vote Democrat for you.

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Last edited by dteowner; April 29th, 2008 at 04:23.
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April 29th, 2008, 04:23
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
@magerette- kinda hard to play the race card when 2 of the 3 defendants (cops) were also black.

Originally Posted by magerette View Post
Not really. Everyone else seems to be doing it without any problems.

I gotta go with dteowner on this one. Of course whenever Al Sharpton is involved he'll do anything in his power to shift the focus on race.
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April 29th, 2008, 04:39
Originally Posted by Kendrik View Post
However there are certain members of various ethnic communities who claim any police action against black people (for example) is racist.
See above post.


Originally Posted by Kendrik View Post
Another poster mentioned "unarmed men" - do not make the mistake that just because a person doesn't have a gun or knife they are unarmed. A car is a lethal weapon in the wrong hands and can kill youas surely as a gun. I didn't really want to get into a debate about the rights and wrongs of that particular case (then why did you post I hear you all cry) but more wanted to comment on the general perceptions of the police and how easy it is to make comment whilst sitting on the outside looking in.

Exactly! It is indeed too easy to form an opinion when certain actions are being highlighted while others are hardly being talked about. So much focus was being directed by the media on the amount of shots that were fired, while the fact that the officer's lives were in danger almost seemed to be ignored.

Now I'm not going to pretend that I know for a fact that the officers were being 100% honest in their allegation that the men in the car were attempting to run them down. I do know this however, I'm going to take their word before the word of 2 intoxicated men who had been partying all night at a seedy stripclub that was already under investigation for "complaints of guns, drugs and prostitution".
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