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April 29th, 2008, 05:06
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
I do know this however, I'm going to take their word before the word of 2 intoxicated men who had been partying all night at a seedy stripclub that was already under investigation for "complaints of guns, drugs and prostitution".
In fairness to the intoxicated black strip club patrons who were shot — one of whom was killed on his wedding day — I'd like to suggest that that may have also occurred to the police officers who fired the fifty shots.

Oh, I wish I had a river I could skate away on. But it don't snow here. It stays pretty green. I'm going to make a lot of money, then I'm going to quit this crazy scene. — [Joni Mitchell]
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April 29th, 2008, 05:17
Originally Posted by Squeek View Post
In fairness to the intoxicated black strip club patrons who were shot — one of whom was killed on his wedding day — I'd like to suggest that that may have also occurred to the police officers who fired the fifty shots.

I understand what you're trying to say Squeek, although I'm not sure if I agree with it. What I don't understand is your emphasis on "black strip club patrons", you didn't say "black" police officers despite the fact that 2\3 of them were African American as well.

I also don't see what a wedding day has anything to do with it. I feel bad for the bride and both of their families, but the fact that it was his wedding day was an unfortunate coincidence that had nothing to do with the actions taken by either side.
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April 29th, 2008, 15:05
The question of the trial wasn't necessarily if the officers did everything by the book or how it would be done in a perfect scenario. The question was simply were their actions criminal.

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April 29th, 2008, 23:08
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
I do know this however, I'm going to take their word before the word of 2 intoxicated men who had been partying all night at a seedy stripclub that was already under investigation for "complaints of guns, drugs and prostitution".
Than you are better man than me because I am taking their words as excuses of three guys who fucked up bady and are trying to save their hides and their pensions.
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April 30th, 2008, 04:06
Originally Posted by zahratustra View Post
Than you are better man than me because I am taking their words as excuses of three guys who fucked up bady and are trying to save their hides and their pensions.

That's one way to look at it.

Another way to look at it is the crap-load of money those other 2 guys are trying to land in the lawsuit which they immediately filed.
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April 30th, 2008, 12:06
I don't blame cops for that. They tried hard to kill the other 2 as well. Maybe they simply run out of bullets?
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April 30th, 2008, 17:07
Originally Posted by zahratustra View Post
I don't blame cops for that. They tried hard to kill the other 2 as well. Maybe they simply run out of bullets?
Yeah that'll be it. Probably on the take too. Probably a Mob hit (and the police were on the pay roll) …. oh yeah and high …. and er…. probably in a stolen car and drunk.

Sarcasm begats sarcasm.

I still maintain the primary motivation in this case was one of protection of themselves and why shouldn't they be able to protect themselves? They did what was needed to stop these dangerous people. I wonder if we would be having this debate if the suspect had actually killed one of the cops by driving over them. I'll tell you what the headline would read - "Cops stand by as one of their own is killed". Of course that assumes that a cop dying would be important enough to make the news.

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April 30th, 2008, 18:43
That's a nice straw man you build there Kendrick. Should I start wondering what debate we would have if the occupant of the car in question was a little girl dressed in red and carrying a basket of food for her ill grandmother?

Fifty shots. That's five and zero. I am still waiting for a plausible explanation for that.
Last edited by zahratustra; April 30th, 2008 at 18:50.
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April 30th, 2008, 19:12
It's pretty simple. Police are taught that when they are in mortal danger, as they claim to believe they were, you aim to kill and you don't stop until you've eliminated the danger.

31 shots were from ONE guy. It's obvious he didn't follow his training.

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April 30th, 2008, 19:37
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
While I basically agree with Kendrik and Dte, what about the person who is not quite in their 'right mind' through drugs or alcohol? Yes, I know they can kill a cop just as easily as anyone else, but they are. at least temporarily, unable to respond rationally to a police directive. Is that reason to kill them? Don't we need a way to incapacitate them as our first priority? Your professional thoughts Kendrik!!
That's why they invented tools such as the Taser to deal with this kind of situation. Unfortunately, it's getting really controversial because it did kill a few people(like that east-european guy in Vancouver last week) in situation where its use was totally unecessary, but for this I blame more the training than the tool itself. Hopefully, they won't impose a ban on its use. I believe the Taser has a great potential for saving lives. They count how many time they use it and how many time someone die after its use… but do they ever count how many times they use it in situation where they would have used a gun instead and shot down the person? That's something I would be curious to hear.
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April 30th, 2008, 20:06
Tasers come with their own issues and problems. In a sense, tasers have the potential to be even worse then regular guns. Misused, tasers are like instruments of torture instead of death.

Those who claim it's easy to understand how the police officers involved aren't to blame are forgetting that they were forced to stand trial. Obviously, someone felt a reasonable case could be made against them.

All we can do is try to imagine what must have happened, and I'm finding fifty shots hard to imagine.

Oh, I wish I had a river I could skate away on. But it don't snow here. It stays pretty green. I'm going to make a lot of money, then I'm going to quit this crazy scene. — [Joni Mitchell]
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April 30th, 2008, 20:18
@Squeek- all that proves is that it was politically and legally expedient for the authorities to push it thru the courts. The courts are full of frivolous cases, so the fact that there was one really says next to nothing.

@zahratustra- you've already clearly stated your intention to assume that the police are guilty, so why don't we stuff the logical fallacy crap? Wrapping your argument in debate terminology doesn't prove anything if your foundation is garbage. You never did answer my question several posts back, which is rather pivotal to the discussion.

edit- here, I'll save you having to page back:
"Did those guys comply with the police directives, zahratsustra? According to the story, they did not."

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April 30th, 2008, 20:39
The most influential reason that this was taken to trial was that independent of whether or not the case was winnable, if they had not, there would have been violent riots.

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April 30th, 2008, 20:47
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
@Squeek- all that proves is that it was politically and legally expedient for the authorities to push it thru the courts. The courts are full of frivolous cases, so the fact that there was one really says next to nothing.
The frivolous cases jamming up courts are civil suits, not criminal prosecutions. That doesn't speak highly of your opinion of our criminal justice system, dte (and I'm surprised). I wonder how the prosecuters who were involved, not to mention the judge, would feel about your characterization of their work.

If anything, the bar is set too high for criminal prosecution. Look at the track records. Prosecutors tend to win a little too often, if you ask me.

Oh, I wish I had a river I could skate away on. But it don't snow here. It stays pretty green. I'm going to make a lot of money, then I'm going to quit this crazy scene. — [Joni Mitchell]
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April 30th, 2008, 20:51
As our imbedded reporter BN affirms, political expediency, folks.

It also will help the city defend against the pending lawsuit.

You know, we need a good whitey riot. I'm getting tired of the nation running scared because a certain community has a history of destroying things if they don't like the way something turns out. Anyone know something I can riot over? Preferably some deeply thoughtful cause near a Best Buy, cuz I'd like a hi-def widesreen.

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April 30th, 2008, 20:54
I threatened to turn over a car for something a few months back, but I can't remember what it was and I doubt to many whitey's were going to join me!

And I for one am glad they did the show trial in this case. I live in Queens!

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April 30th, 2008, 21:03
Originally Posted by Squeek View Post
The frivolous cases jamming up courts are civil suits, not criminal prosecutions. That doesn't speak highly of your opinion of our criminal justice system, dte (and I'm surprised). I wonder how the prosecuters who were involved, not to mention the judge, would feel about your characterization of their work.

If anything, the bar is set too high for criminal prosecution. Look at the track records. Prosecutors tend to win a little too often, if you ask me.
I think you messed up your wording at the end, but I understand your point. You're right about the civil/criminal point. Actually, my poor opinion of the justice system stems from an overly generous treatment of criminals (as I think you expected), so it's not really applicable to this issue. Perhaps "full" was a bit of hyperbole, but I feel pretty safe in saying this isn't the only example of criminal charges being pursued simply for political expediency. I would expect the folks that worked this case weren't overly happy about it and might even agree with my complaint. That really doesn't question their professionalism—they're doing their job and presumably doing it well.

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April 30th, 2008, 21:11
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
I think you messed up your wording at the end, but I understand your point.
The bar may be set too high, meaning prosecutors may only be prosecuting cases they know they have a good chance of winning. That's why their track records are so very good.

That's the opposite of the view that people get prosecuted all the time, just for political reasons, with no hope of ever being convicted. That's easy to imagine, but the numbers say otherwise.

Oh, I wish I had a river I could skate away on. But it don't snow here. It stays pretty green. I'm going to make a lot of money, then I'm going to quit this crazy scene. — [Joni Mitchell]
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April 30th, 2008, 21:18
That's part of the reason our system is flawed. Prosecutors are judged (job wise) on winning percentage, not on whether or not justice was served.

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April 30th, 2008, 21:42
I guess I didn't understand your point after all.

I've got no first-hand knowledge to dispute that thought, but perhaps you'd be more comfortable with the idea if we clarified it to "highly publicized cases"?

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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