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Default Mass Effect - Copy Protection Details

May 7th, 2008, 15:24
I guess in the big scheme of things this plan isn't too bad. I'm not a big fan of the on-line checks, but if they happen only once per 10 days, that's not horrible. That's better than the NWN modules that required 100% connection at all times.
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May 7th, 2008, 16:56
Having played many games with online activation - Race, rFactor, FSX, Bioshock. I have often wondered why don't they use online activation. I love Steam taking care of my Race07, and have had no problems with Bioshock, or the reinstallation of FSX.

This is the way to go in the copy protection business…(Altough i prefer not having it at all, but if i must this is preferred).
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May 7th, 2008, 17:28
1. Kind of ironic that all those DRM actually hurt the piracy haters the most:
They target exactly those unalienable rights that noone (except company fanbois) would ever deem immoral:
Resale and lending games to your friends, family etc.

It worked for books, it worked for cars, it worked for software. Yet there are doomsayers all over the place. Maybe in the distant future, reselling your car will be illegal as well? Think its unlikely? There is already a collectivist ideology that wants to get rid of economic freedoms - climate alarmism.

Torrents dont care wether Jane casual can give a copy of Sims 4 to her daughter or not. So why target the law-abiding when the big mean world doesnt care?

I think the strategy is re-education. Drill people that they dont own anything despite paying money, so that longterm any form sharing (libraries, borrowing from friends) gets associated with theft, immorality etc. Lots of similar propaganda of that sort on MMO forums already, with plenty of fanbois defending it ("Goldselling" is illegal, immoral yada yada (if you are a normal guy looking to cash out to fund college) yet those games are full of (and sometimes dominated by - professionals can run the elite guilds just as well or even better) goldfarmers.)


2. Hardware copy protection
Piracy not only exists on consoles - some say that certain consoles are basically driven by piracy (PS2)

Piracy is rationally beneficient for everyone except software developers (though some so-called OpenSource fanatics dont seem to mind that they are robbed and plundered on a daily basis, just look at ubuntu torrents).

Hardware copy protection would:
-Increase benefits to develop software on said hardware (though it is debatable and not yet researched wether there are more efficient ways to reward software production besides "pay per licence"), thus potentially increasing aviability of software aviability in the longterm.

-Hugely increase costs to operate said hardware (mitigated a lot if hardware is capable of running "free" software without problems.), thus reducing demand (before even looking at competition)
-Generate minor backlash from "freedom fanatics".
-be very uncompetitive due to higher R&D costs and potential performance deficits

Hardware manufacturers (and anyone else besides SOME Software developers) has no inherent interest in preventing piracy … time will tell wether a small minority will be able to force society to swim up a waterfall or wether society will find business models that guarantee a optimal balance of compensation for developers vs aviability of the product.
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May 7th, 2008, 18:15
If you've pirated a game or loaned a friend your disks while still playing the game yourself, you can look in the mirror for reasons why video-game designers are increasingly designing their games for consoles. On one forum (not this one), the first thing somebody said about Bioshock was that they'd get a free copy online, but that they didn't think it was worth paying money for. Way to help, guys.
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May 7th, 2008, 18:16
I'm fine with phoning home if it means my DVD stays in the box with no risk of scratching. But I want to be able to install the game on as many computers as I'd like, and also to have full freedom of exchanging my PC components with no risk of the game ceasing to want to run. So I'll pass, then. Games are expensive and I won't be taking any such risks.
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May 7th, 2008, 18:34
Originally Posted by PatrickWeekes View Post
If you've pirated a game or loaned a friend your disks while still playing the game yourself, you can look in the mirror for reasons why video-game designers are increasingly designing their games for consoles. On one forum (not this one), the first thing somebody said about Bioshock was that they'd get a free copy online, but that they didn't think it was worth paying money for. Way to help, guys.
So game makers aren't responsible for the copy protection they put into their games; game buyers are responsible? That's what you're saying, right?

That seems awfully convenient to me. While I don't blame game makers for wanting to protect their profits, I think it's a little weak to take pot shots at customers who don't like the sound of being inconvenienced.

Why hasn't the software industry come up with an effective solution to this problem that won't inconvenience loyal customers? Why does it produce so many products that customers feel weren't worth the money they paid for them? And why is it so hard for customers to trust anything the software industry says?

Maybe while we're busy looking in our mirrors, you could take a look in one of your own, Patrick, and ask yourself those kinds of questions.

Oh, I wish I had a river I could skate away on. But it don't snow here. It stays pretty green. I'm going to make a lot of money, then I'm going to quit this crazy scene. — [Joni Mitchell]
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May 7th, 2008, 18:53
Originally Posted by PatrickWeekes View Post
If you've pirated a game or loaned a friend your disks while still playing the game yourself, you can look in the mirror for reasons why video-game designers are increasingly designing their games for consoles. On one forum (not this one), the first thing somebody said about Bioshock was that they'd get a free copy online, but that they didn't think it was worth paying money for. Way to help, guys.
Everyone I know irl and plays games owns only 2-3 games at best. They read warezsite news to d/l the newest games for free as soon as they arrive with programs like torrent and dc++. There are "elite" warez insider clubs too where you can d/l them even sooner.

This goes for all games from bioshock to assassins creed. One even owns first xbox and has like 100 pirated games on it. He bought it for 1 euro and has never spent a dime more except for the modchip and harddrive.

I know only one person who doesnt do this and he owns a ps3 (onlyone at that). Apparently its too hard to do and the loss of the online features would be too much so he doesnt bother. I gotta give credit to this new generation of consoles, their drm really works. Hopefully PC will receive similar drm one day through the gaming alliance.

EDIT: Note *I* dont pirate games - Im just telling you what the reality is atleast here.
Last edited by zakhal; May 7th, 2008 at 19:36.
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May 7th, 2008, 18:54
Originally Posted by Squeek View Post
Maybe while we're busy looking in our mirrors, you could take a look in one of your own, Patrick, and ask yourself those kinds of questions.
No personal attacks!
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May 7th, 2008, 19:14
It's a personal thing as far as I'm concerned (not a reference to Gorath's above post). Buy it or don't and at the end of the day the sale stats will decide if this is worth it or not. It's not like EA/Bioware don't know this will alienate some customers because DRM has happened in other industries before with similar debates/concerns. Bioshock was the last (literally) game I'll buy with this on excluding Sims 3 as I'll probably buy that for my special lady friend. I think this really pushes on consumer's right's to resell which I'm sure EA (and probably a lot of publishers) wants disposed. For that reason I'll pass on SecuROM.

With that said I'm not saying I'm right and the PC market may need this to survive but if that's the case it can survive without me.
Last edited by woges; May 7th, 2008 at 21:40.
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May 7th, 2008, 19:31
Originally Posted by zakhal View Post
Everyone I know irl and plays games owns only 2-3 games at best. They read warezsite news to d/l the newest games for free as soon as they arrive with programs like torrent and dc++. There are "elite" warez insider clubs too where you can d/l them even sooner.
Then everyone you know in real life is pirating software, and when you wonder why software has such huge and unpleasant copy protection, and why software is developed more often first on consoles, rendering PCs the redheaded stepchild of development platforms, you should have an answer that readily springs to mind.

Originally Posted by Squeek
So game makers aren't responsible for the copy protection they put into their games; game buyers are responsible? That's what you're saying, right?
Yes. That is exactly what I'm saying. When the post directly beneath yours talks blithely about how nobody buys software because it's easier to pirate it, then yes, the gamer culture of software piracy gets to take a good hefty portion of blame for the corporate culture of oppressive software protection.

I don't like having to be connected to the Internet to play a single-player RPG. I don't like having to use my CD-drive as a glorified dongle. But I understand why it's happening. It's a response, an attempt to at least cut the casual pirates to stem a little of the blood loss.

That seems awfully convenient to me. While I don't blame game makers for wanting to protect their profits, I think it's a little weak to take pot shots at customers who don't like the sound of being inconvenienced.
Post below yours, man. Shall we talk weak? This isn't a warez site. This is a site ostensibly devoted to love of the genre, and right here, out in the open, with no shame, people are talking casually about pirating.

If people talked casually about stealing money from your company, would that maybe inspire you to get slightly obnoxious about the locks on the doors? Because I'm not pulling in the big bucks. A whole lot of my salary depends on yearly bonus, and a whole lot of that bonus depends on how well our games sell. This isn't a faceless conglomerate of evil nameless people, a system that everyone should feel satisfied to screw over. This is me. This is another guy, the lead systems designer of BioShock, who's active over on ENWorld. This is men and women who are in this because they're trying to make games that people will love, when honestly, we'd be making more as SQL programmers or marketing copywriters.

So, uh, no. I have absolutely no trouble getting behind copy protection. I'll be first in line when something better comes along, a system that doesn't penalize legitimate users as much but offers at least the same level of protection. No argument there. I'll mourn the PC coming in a distant last place in terms of development priorities. But ultimately, I can't blame the higher-ups for making that decision. Too many people think that pirating is an acceptable solution.

If you don't feel a game is worth your money, don't buy it.

Why hasn't the software industry come up with an effective solution to this problem that won't inconvenience loyal customers? Why does it produce so many products that customers feel weren't worth the money they paid for them? And why is it so hard for customers to trust anything the software industry says?

Maybe while we're busy looking in our mirrors, you could take a look in one of your own, Patrick, and ask yourself those kinds of questions.
Dude, I'm a writer. I'm not a programmer. So putting me up as the one who has personally failed if we can't redesign new copy protection standards? Weak.

That said: "Why does it produce so many products that customers feel weren't worth the money they paid for them?" Because young gamers feel justified in pirating. Post below yours. Right there.

You want to sling mud, you go right ahead. Apologize for the pirates. I hope that self-righteous indignation serves you well when the next hot game comes out on the consoles first, and is then dumbed down and ported over to the PC as an afterthought.
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May 7th, 2008, 19:41
Originally Posted by PatrickWeekes View Post
Then everyone you know in real life is pirating software, and when you wonder why software has such huge and unpleasant copy protection, and why software is developed more often first on consoles, rendering PCs the redheaded stepchild of development platforms, you should have an answer that readily springs to mind.



Yes. That is exactly what I'm saying. When the post directly beneath yours talks blithely about how nobody buys software because it's easier to pirate it, then yes, the gamer culture of software piracy gets to take a good hefty portion of blame for the corporate culture of oppressive software protection.

And yet the new measures do absolutely nothing to interrupt the piracy of the game (we all know it will be cracked without too much bother) and instead further punishes those who DO pay out with yet more restrictive DRM.

You're punishing your paying customers far more than you're punishing pirates with these new measures. And that's the truly sad thing about all of this.
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May 7th, 2008, 19:42
Originally Posted by PatrickWeekes View Post
Post below yours, man. Shall we talk weak? This isn't a warez site. This is a site ostensibly devoted to love of the genre, and right here, out in the open, with no shame, people are talking casually about pirating.
Note that *I* dont pirate games or condone it (but I dont preach abt it to my friends either - that would be pointless). Infact I propably own more games than you - if not more than most in this board. I have even planned to take som pictures of my collection one day and show som of it here (just need to borrow camera first).

Point is that pirating is very casual in real life and everyone does it atleast as far as I know. I wanted to bring that fact to this discussion, because so many in this thread dont seem to understand how desperate the need for DRMs is.

I don't like having to be connected to the Internet to play a single-player RPG. I don't like having to use my CD-drive as a glorified dongle. But I understand why it's happening. It's a response, an attempt to at least cut the casual pirates to stem a little of the blood loss.
This same discussion abt mass effect is on other boards too - they complain about those same things while in reality everyone around them is busy as bee d/l latest warez for free (they even talk abt d/l warez on the same boards while complaining abt DRM). I find it immoral and "slightly" annoying.
Last edited by zakhal; May 7th, 2008 at 19:54.
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May 7th, 2008, 19:43
Originally Posted by zakhal View Post
(just need to borrow camera first)
Aha! Caught you out there - "borrow camera" indeed you filthy tea leaf
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May 7th, 2008, 19:49
Originally Posted by zakhal View Post
Note that *I* dont pirate games or condone it (but I dont preach abt to my friends either - that would be pointless). Infact I propably own more games than you - if not more than most in this board. I have even planned to take som pictures of my collection one day and show som of it here (just need to borrow camera first).

Point is that pirating is very casual in real life and everyone does it atleast as far as I know. I wanted to bring that fact to this discussion, because so many in this thread dont seem to understand the need of DRM.
Sorry — misunderstood the context of your post.

To the rest: Yell all you like. I have no problem admitting that copy protection sucks. I do play games as well. But I also see enough piracy to know that every corporation out there absolutely must do something to try to slow the blood loss. The fact that it's not the thing that you personally would have them do is one of the harsh realities of life.
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May 7th, 2008, 19:50
OK, Patrick, I completely understand you wanting to protect your livelihood. That's understandable. From the outset let me state that piracy is wrong and I in no way condone it. I think, however, you're slightly misguided on a few points:

1. Piracy is not destroying the PC market. Piracy's been there for 20 years, since the ZX Spectrum, when Imagine claimed it was destroying the gaming market. There have always been consoles, and in the past they were far more pirate-proof than they are today (it's a damn site easier to pirate any of the major consoles than it was an Atari 2600). Yet the PC gaming market is protifable and persists, as does the lazy developer cry of "My game didn't sell as well as I expected. Piracy!". Imagine made that cry too. The real reason their games stopped selling: Unreasonable expectations and the fact they produced the same shit games with no innovation.

2. Copy protection does not stop piracy. Short of true MMOPRG server-side softeware, all copy protection means is maybe an extra few hours for the game to hit the warez sites. It does succeed, however, it annoying the shit out of legitimate owners, and maybe discouraging a few people from actually buying the game in the first place. One of the biggest selling game of recent times: Oblivion, and not because it had an sophisticated copy protection system.

I'm not saying piracy can't hit sales, but it's nothing like as bad the publishers are shouting about.
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May 7th, 2008, 20:03
Originally Posted by Holly Avenger View Post
Aha! Caught you out there - "borrow camera" indeed you filthy tea leaf
I dont have a habit of taking pictures nor buying the latest phones (I buy new once the old one breaks) so I simply dont have one. My roommate has camphone though so I could use that but Im not sure of its quality.

I have lots of games old and new spanning the last ~30 years. Full series like ultima, might magic, all ad&d games from the original pool of radiance to the latest nwn2 addon, etc with complete printed documentation and maps. Somtimes I just spend time looking at my bookshelf (overloaded though - need to buy another one). For me its a priceless treasure chest really.

PC games have become quite cheap nowadays. Even new pc games like assasins creed limited edition (metal box etc - 34€ shipping included) or mass effect (40€ shipping included). The games cost almost nothing compared to how many hours of entertainment you get from them. Its just ridiculous that people - especially working people who could easily afford them - think they need to pirate them.

Originally Posted by mogwins View Post
Unreasonable expectations and the fact they produced the same shit games with no innovation.
Thats mainly the fault of piracy. More piracy = less money to developers = more generic games. Thanks to piracy they need to make simplified games that cater to everyones tastes to get the largest target audiance group.
Last edited by zakhal; May 7th, 2008 at 20:41.
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May 7th, 2008, 20:06
Originally Posted by PatrickWeekes View Post
You want to sling mud, you go right ahead. Apologize for the pirates. I hope that self-righteous indignation serves you well when the next hot game comes out on the consoles first, and is then dumbed down and ported over to the PC as an afterthought.
Patrick, you brought up "looking in the mirror" — not me. It's either fair or not, nice or not. A mod thought my response was personal and warned me, so I won't pursue it. My questions were expressly directed at the entire software industry.

I know a thing or two about being cheated out of money. Some of those stories, I can't even tell, because most people find them too hard to believe. So I don't blame you for not wanting to be cheated or not wanting to have to be subtle about it.

But this is a fan site. We're customers here. I don't mean to crawl in the mud, but that doesn't seem particularly valuable to you.

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May 7th, 2008, 20:19
mogwins,

your points are both incorrect IMHO.

While the publishers have every reason to exaggerate the effect of piracy, itīs 100% clear that they indeed lose potential customers through piracy. If you assume millions of copies for an AAA title even a small percentage of lost sales quickly adds up to the thousands. Multiply by 50$ average retail price and it makes sense to try to "convince" casual pirates to buy the game.
Hardcore pirates are not interesting. Let them download all they want. What the publishers really want is kill casual piracy. And if this canīt be done - whatīs almost always the case - they want to slow it down as much as possible. This makes sense because most games sell the majority of their full-price units in the first few weeks. Every day the CP survives is worth its weight in gold.

Of course publishers also think strategically. They have other goals too. DL has higher margins than retail. So they try to migrate their customers to their DL business. Online activation, registration, Steam, DLC, etc. are good steps to get this process going.
They also want to kill the used games business because they think it hurts them, which is also debatable. Going online improves their situation here too.
Another point is support costs. Verification before support saves them a lot of money. Any ideas for an easy and reliable verification method?


I would also like to point out again that Bioīs activation thing also comes with a plus for the customer: You donīt need the DVD in the drive.
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May 7th, 2008, 20:35
Gorath, not wanting to be unnecessarily argumentative, but I don't think you addressed why you think my points are wrong?

I presume if you think point 1 is wrong than you think piracy IS killing the game industry. You have to admit, it's a very long, drawn-out death that started the moment it was conceived, and at the present it's looking very healthy. When exactly is going to die, because all I see is an industry getting stronger and stronger, more and more profitable?

As for point 2, if we're completely ignoring the main pirates and looking at only school-yard swapping, then yes, copy protection might do something. I don't have any numbers to hand, but I suspect losses such effects are VERY small. And people have always swapped games, PC or console.

The copy protection we're talking about here, as adopted by Mass Effect, is an attempt to produce consumers who buy something but don't have the right to sell it on. Thus you don't purchase Mass Effect, you rent it (because if I buy a film on DVD, I have the right to sell it on, whereas if I rent it, I don't). And if that's really the stance EA wants to take, then they'd better price their product accordingly!
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May 7th, 2008, 20:54
tl;dr version:
DRM Supporters / Piracy haters use moral arguments that target torrent pirates, and use actions that have no effect on them, but target "casual pirates" (=legit consumer practice).

"Piracy is evil, it is destroying everything, look at all those torrent sites, all hives of scum and villany. Yet we dont do anything about them, we instead target YOU. Stop giving things you own to your friends. Stop selling on things you own after you no longer need them. Stop using things you own the way you want. Seriously, piracy is evil."


Long version

Dont have time or motivation (or talent) to write out a post where i pretend to be a camera-manufacturer that accuses one of the above poster (the one who admitted casual camera piracy) of being an evil, camera-industry destroying freeloader who wants all the benefits without paying for all the hard work those camera-manufacturers poored into their product, so just imagining something along those lines . Lots of moral self-entitlement and reality denial about something most people consider natural (borrowing physical objects from friends).




Now seriously. What if the camera came with a piece of paper that said:
You dont buy the product, you buy the non-transferable licence to use it. Then, according to those twisted morals, the person would be everything the industry(R) and fabois(C) club(tm) accuses pirates to be. 3 lines of text that would change everything.


People who use ad-blockers: amoral, internet destroying scum.
(there are actually sites that have TOS that state that you are not allowed to view the site while using ad-blockers)

Ever taken the sports pages of a newspaper while your father read the politics and economy section? Why not buy your own product, you filthy thief? You are the reason why journalism is in constant decline.

Ever let your daughter take your car? How many jobs were lost (or moved to China) because of the crisis of US car manufacturers? You have destroyed the lives of hundreds of thousands of people who are now unemployed.

Ever taken a "break" during a commercial? You are a criminal, nothing more to say.

Pirates are to blame for DRM? Crackers enjoy the challenge, and pirates never see the DRM. DRM affects casual users and neighbourhood sharing, things that everyone takes for granted with everything but software. Things that used to be legal not long ago. The attitude changed with software (all those DRM supporters freely acknowledge that DRM doesnt stop elite release groups or torrents, they refer to kiddies and casuals as main targets (and 0-day piracy, but that one is actually legitimate)). Will you (the software developers, for everyone else its obvious) really be better of when the attitude spreads? Will total controll over your work but total loss of controll over everything else be better then the status quo?

Sounds harsh? It doesnt so far off … the problem with a reality-denying stance (sometimes refered to "morals") is that you are *always* a hypocrite.

Now obviously, zero-day piracy (mostly refering to people who would have bought the game if piracy was impossible) is "morally" wrong (on a economical level - not passing judgement on wether "property" is a moral concept or just a practical one that helps boost economy). Playing games you would normally not buy or be able to afford is problematic.

If the answer of Software developers in response to piracy is to leave the PC plattform, i support this step. It is exactly how a healthy free market should work. If something is not sustainable, then it needs to go (unless there are strong humanitarian interests - healthcare for the elderly etc). Everyone says the status quo is not sustainable … so find a business model that is (MMO, free flash games, etc etc). People who want old-school singleplayer games should pay true market price (possibly with premium), not whine for subsidy from the general population.


Look at all those "free to play" games. Only a small small minority really pays (and a even smaller minority forks over serious cash), yet without all the freeloaders, there would be no game, no user-base to draw in fresh "victims", no community etc. And the model works, as it is all over the place now, with major titles (Mythos) adopting it.

It is very possible that the entire software business has been a poor shadow of a "free-to-play" scheme all this time without realising it.




I think in the long run, treating financial supporters as heroes will prove more successful then treating freeloaders as villians. Donationware with strong, unpirateable benefits for top supporters, and lots of nods to regular ones, should be tried alot more often (think custom forum titles, NPCs named after donators, minor or major game content somehow related to the identities and personalities , custom art / wallpapers, just a "thank you, it really means alot to us" news article etc etc).
Last edited by Saerden; May 7th, 2008 at 21:10.
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