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Default Tibet and the Western World's hypocrisy

May 18th, 2008, 04:11
Hope my spelling is correct.

I was just wondering about people's thoughts on the subject.
Tibet has been an issue for decades and only now that the Olympics are on their way do thousands of people say anything about it.
China has been occupying Tibet for decades, yet the world has been silent. It seems the Western countries' are only looking to make China look bad and win the popular support by voicing its hypocritical opinion… Not only countries, but also people. The people remained silent and only now do they do and/or say anything about this topic.

Any thoughts ?
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May 18th, 2008, 04:59
Where's Tibet??!! Sorry if I sound insensitive, but that's really the issue. It's a small relatively insignificant place (in world terms) and most of us never even think about it until it's brought to our immediate attention. Now, if it had rich reserves of Oil, things would be quite different!!

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May 18th, 2008, 11:46
That's because there's not much point to protest a regime you have no leverage on. Now there is a leverage, so it gets used.

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May 18th, 2008, 14:17
EVERYBODY wants to invest in the big, big, huge, overgrowing market of China.

That's why everybody keeps so still.

They all want to play nice because they want (and need) new markets.

Economy over human rights !

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May 18th, 2008, 23:36
Has it ever really been any different? It's called secular humanism, progress, whatever, but at its core is usually selfishness in one form or another!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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May 19th, 2008, 00:54
Kazik hits the nail on the unfortunately.

The problem is there's little that could be done about it except managing to smuggle the Dali Lhama out and giving India and Pakistan the Nuclear Bomb to prevent China's further expansionist aims.

Maintaining the balance of power in the region was critical during the Cold War and the only thing the Soviets and the US could agree on. The Korean War proved that China was a force to be reckoned wit as Eisenhower wasn't willing to risk a nuclear war no matter how limited.

And later, no one could have foresaw a Communist country like China becoming the economic powerhouse with that kind of regime but it was Napoleon who called it the Sleeping Dragon. There was a myth that Western governments half believed that economic growth would spur the eventual change to Democracy.

Currently, as long as the ultra-competitive West is unable to embargo China as the US managed to do unilaterally to Cuba I'm afraid there's nothing that can be done about it, just as there's nothing that can be done about the Russian's occupation of Chechnya.

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May 19th, 2008, 01:24
corwin that is not secular humanism!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism

oh and maybe the timing of this thread is probably not the best
considering you know, the tens of thousands of chinese who have died over the past week and are still currently.

actually there's really not to many 'people' getting upset about china and tibet who haven't already known and complained about it for quite a while and known about 'free tibet' through bumper stickers and concerts. this latest surge is the medias usual self-fufilling yada, and i guarantee the majority of conversations people are having about it now will be gone after the olymics are over, or maybe even once they start. the movement may gain a bit of momentum but as usual the fairweather flags will find another ship to fly on.

oh and if want a better topic of the day/month etc. might i suggest we focus on palistines plight, who don't even have a well loved #1bookseller to help spread the message of freedom.
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May 19th, 2008, 20:55
I don't mind, but please create another thread for it. I'll enjoy discussing the issue with you and others. (BTw, the Palestinian plight is always on tv, I had almost not seen anything about Tibet until the last months… but if you want to talk about it please create a thread.)

But what about all these people trying to stop the Olympics torch ? All going crazy for Tibet's freedom all around the world?
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May 19th, 2008, 22:59
Some of the major reasons have been hit: Obscurity of Tibet and the economic attractiveness of China.

This is nothing new, and you can find far more extreme examples of the West saying one thing and doing (or not doing) another, like Israel and pretty much any country in Africa.

It really goes like this:

The West WANTS the world to be ruled democratically and justly, however our own self-preservation and self-interests have always and will always take precedence over that desire.

It's cruel, it's harsh, but honestly, as an American, I am fine with that order of priority.

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May 20th, 2008, 00:10
Originally Posted by Lucky Day View Post
The problem is there's little that could be done about it except managing to smuggle the Dali Lhama out and giving India and Pakistan the Nuclear Bomb to prevent China's further expansionist aims.
Except of course the Dali Lhama smuggled himself out, India and Pakistan made their own bombs and China isn't expansionist.
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May 20th, 2008, 01:04
yes blatantninja there is some truth in that but that attitude comes full circle
and is exactly while america might someday soon become the worlds largest portopotty, unless of course people realize that true patiotism, especially in the case of democracy, can never come 2nd to humanism, unless of course the democracy strived for is simply for alterier motives, and as empty as a bumper sticker.

The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power.
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May 20th, 2008, 01:16
Originally Posted by curiously undead View Post
yes blatantninja there is some truth in that but that attitude comes full circle
and is exactly while america might someday soon become the worlds largest portopotty, unless of course people realize that true patiotism, especially in the case of democracy, can never come 2nd to humanism, unless of course the democracy strived for is simply for alterier motives, and as empty as a bumper sticker.
We've had that attitude for our entire 232 years as an independent nation, so if we do become the world's largest portopotty, that won't be the reason. The earliest example is probably our refusal to support the French in their revolution, despite them fundamentally rebelling for similar reasons. That said, I am all for developing the technology that allows us to be more independent (mainly energy related, but also other natural resource and manufacturing) or competitive in the world landscape, and hence give us more flexibility in how we deal with nations that don't share our ideals of liberty and freedom.

However, I'm not willing to sacrifice (outside of general reason) what we currently have to do it. And if the roles were reversed, I wouldn't expect anyone else to do anything different either.

And while I agree partially with FDR's quote, for all the good he did, he was an unrepentant socialist who left us the legacy of a fundamentally unsound social security and pension system that created a sense of entitlement never seen before in our country, and is currently causing large problems in our economy.

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May 20th, 2008, 02:19
Originally Posted by V7 View Post
China isn't expansionist.
Tell that to the Taiwanese and you'll probably be laughed at or yelled at.

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May 20th, 2008, 03:10
we could debate forever on how that has or hasn't been the us policy for that entire time or continuously. though it doesn't change the attitude that you get what you give, and that a handful of great people have greatly helped the country and a handful have done great damage.
i'm not sure exactly our role in the french revolution, which wasn't at all like our own, but a class one, probably more akin to our civil war. but i do know that without the french we would still be red coats ourselves.

indepence is nice, but our resources are dwindling not growing, water being the main lifeblood that has been perilous for some regions of the country.
and whether the world like it or not a new system will have to be developed, since as we keep on relinquishing powers/duties to the private sector, we 'shockingly' see higher and higher prices, harder times etc. competive companies are not going to solves this problem, since a profit based system is always a narrow focused endeavor and leaches resources from one aspect to fill the other.

only when the us and other world economies figure someway to leave the resources of the world in the peoples hands and the products and services to the private sector can the new economic web be woven. inflation can't go on forever, unless of course people don't mind being pushed into a further fear based society where gaps between poor and rich grow deeper, and those 'enslaved' in the bottom begin pooring out of the jails, and low income neighborhoods, where people will be hiring blackwater to protect their kids on their way to school.

the majority don't want to envision such a tale, republican or democrat, but a large section of them most the 'baby boomers' (sorry have to pick on someone) have lived a decent life, payed their taxes, worked hard, and really are looking forward to a lush retirement, and aren't to be bothered with the future of americans let alone the world.

The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power.
- Franklin D. Roosevelt

he who tries to make a point
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May 20th, 2008, 03:39
Originally Posted by skavenhorde View Post
Tell that to the Taiwanese and you'll probably be laughed at or yelled at.
Those would be the Taiwanese in the Republic of China right?
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May 20th, 2008, 04:12
Originally Posted by V7 View Post
Those would be the Taiwanese in the Republic of China right?
LMAO, ROC in name only in addition it is NOT the People's Republic of China. One is Communist the other isn't. There is a big difference.

So once again try telling that Communist China isn't expansionist to anyone from "Taiwan."

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May 20th, 2008, 04:58
Originally Posted by skavenhorde View Post
LMAO, ROC in name only in addition it is NOT the People's Republic of China. One is Communist the other isn't. There is a big difference.

So once again try telling that Communist China isn't expansionist to anyone from "Taiwan."
You seem to have missed my point, even if the ROC claimed to be a separate state, which it doesn't, the rest of the world accepts the one China principle.
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May 20th, 2008, 05:30
Originally Posted by V7 View Post
Except of course the Dali Lhama smuggled himself out, India and Pakistan made their own bombs and China isn't expansionist.
Sure..and Israel and South Africa made their own too.

These countries have had nukes for over 30 years and its been an open secret. You don't just make nukes in your backyard secretly, and definitely not back then. There's a lot of press that doesn't get put out until its official over things like this. Why else did Pakistan suddenly have one immediately after India tested their's? If you don't believe me why are we just hearing now about Israel's bombing of the facilities in Syria? That's the beauty of having an ally like Israel. The US would never have been able to get away with that.

China is not expansionist? This is the country that occupied Tibet right? And had several wars with India? And had been causing so many problems at their border with Russia they sought ping pong diplomacy with the US? Just checking.

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May 20th, 2008, 08:05
Originally Posted by Lucky Day View Post
China is not expansionist? This is the country that occupied Tibet right? And had several wars with India? And had been causing so many problems at their border with Russia they sought ping pong diplomacy with the US? Just checking.
No, China isn't expansionist. Not in the usual sense of the word anyway.

In a very small nutshell, here's how they see it.

China is the Center Kingdom that has been around for, what, 5000 years. During this time, it has had lots and lots of dynasties ruling it. Dynasties follow a repeating life cycle. When they decline, Chinese border provinces split off and sometimes the entire country falls into disarray. When a new one ascends, it consolidates its power and reclaims the border provinces.

In this narrative, Tibet, Taiwan, the South Tibetan areas it captured during the Sino-Indian war, and the Ussur river region are simply border provinces that broke off during the previous period of dynastic decline. The current dynasty (the Communist one) is on the ascendant; therefore its duty is to restore the natural, historical borders of China. China hasn't had territorial ambitions that go beyond that since the Tang dynasty at least.

In other words, China's "expansionism" applies to (a) Tibet, which it already possesses, (b) Taiwan, which is de jure already China, with the character of the legitimate government in dispute (Guomindang or Communist?), and (c) just possibly the Ussur river region, which is a Russian-Chinese issue. I'm rather touched that you're so concerned about the territorial integrity of Russia, but I have a feeling they're quite capable of dealing with that situation on their own.

Therefore, it's inaccurate to call it expansionist, and downright ridiculous to posit that it has any further territorial ambitions on India. (If it did, it could easily have extended its conquest during the war — they gave the Indian army such a stomping they could've marched all the way to Delhi without meeting serious resistance.)
Last edited by Prime Junta; May 20th, 2008 at 08:12.
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May 20th, 2008, 08:30
Worth noting also that the PRC hasn't attempted to reunify Taiwan by force dispite a good legal claim to the territory and recognises Mongolia dispite historic claims there.
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