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May 20th, 2008, 09:34
As far as nukes go Israel had French assistance, South Africa was believed to have had Israeli assistance. India is thought to be indigenous and China helped Pakistan's development, none of which supports your suggestion that India and Pakistan were given nuclear weapons to contain China.
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May 20th, 2008, 14:30
Originally Posted by V7 View Post
You seem to have missed my point, even if the ROC claimed to be a separate state, which it doesn't, the rest of the world accepts the one China principle.
Let's not start the whole "Taiwan's not a country" debate. Overall, we are both right and both wrong. Prior to 1970 the "Nationalist China" aka ROC was a country. They had lost the cival war with the Peoples Liberation Army "Communist China" and withdrew to Taiwan where they changed the capital to Taiwan. In 1970 they withdrew from the UN (to quote a friend of mine "The dumbest thing Taiwan has ever done.") In 1971 the "Communist China" entered the UN and soon after most of the diplomatic ties that the ROC had with other countries were severed. So now that they aren't in the UN does Taiwan and the ROC just disappear? or like the Taiwanese say they become a "world orphan."

Here is more info for you on the topic.

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/profiles/Taiwan.pdf
http://geography.about.com/od/politi…wancountry.htm
Taiwan's military - http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita…wan/index.html
2001 "Mayor" Giuliani forgets that Taiwan isn't a country - http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag…56C0A9679C8B63
Great info on the history of Taiwan - http://www.leksu.com/

So we are both right and both wrong. As for being an expansionist, I might be a little prejudice since I live here and have loved ones here but having missiles aimed at you and sometimes fired near the country you live in, gives this overall feeling of dread. I will never believe for a second that China wouldn't expand it's borders in a second if it thought it could win. But there is a problem India has nukes. Taiwan has Japan and the USA. Russia, well Russia is Russia like PJ said I think Russia can take care of themselves. This would put a damper on the whole "Happy Happy Joy Joy" image that China is trying to create now.

Coincedently, the new President, MA Ying-Jeou was sworn in today and in his first speech he both said he pledged to acquire more weaponry and open up direct flights to China. I found that funny since those two ideas seem to be at odds with each other.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p…qLA&refer=asia

Originally Posted by V7 View Post
Worth noting also that the PRC hasn't attempted to reunify Taiwan by force dispite a good legal claim to the territory and recognises Mongolia dispite historic claims there.
Don't have any idea about Mongolia but as for Taiwan there has been a security blanket from the USA. Any attack on Taiwan and the USA would come to its aid. I don't know if the US could actually come to Taiwan's aid now due to the war but I don't think China is willing to take that chance just yet.

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Last edited by skavenhorde; May 20th, 2008 at 14:50.
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May 20th, 2008, 15:48
Originally Posted by curiously undead View Post
but i do know that without the french we would still be red coats ourselves.
There's no debating that!

indepence is nice, but our resources are dwindling not growing, water being the main lifeblood that has been perilous for some regions of the country.
and whether the world like it or not a new system will have to be developed, since as we keep on relinquishing powers/duties to the private sector, we 'shockingly' see higher and higher prices, harder times etc.
Natural resources, by their nature, are always dwindling. The biggest concern is brain drain, but that has been significantly over exaggerated. It's also a complete fabrication that twe are relinquishing power to the private sector in any meaningful way. Our government is larger and more intrusive than it has ever been in the past. The higher prices we have seen are mainly in commodities that were historically under priced anyway (like oil and food) compared to the rest of the world. As for harder times, it's not even as bad today as it was in the early 90's, and it's not even close to as bad as most of the recessions/depressions in our history.


competive companies are not going to solves this problem, since a profit based system is always a narrow focused endeavor and leaches resources from one aspect to fill the other.
We've seen historically that while government regulation to some extent is desirable, the most efficient way to grow the wealth of the nation is via the profit based system. There simply isn't a better system in the world, though it is far from perfect.


only when the us and other world economies figure someway to leave the resources of the world in the peoples hands and the products and services to the private sector can the new economic web be woven.
Which I hope never happens, because inevitably when something is 'in the people's hands' it is in the governments hands, and governments are far more prone to corruption and waste than the private sector.

inflation can't go on forever, unless of course people don't mind being pushed into a further fear based society where gaps between poor and rich grow deeper, and those 'enslaved' in the bottom begin pooring out of the jails, and low income neighborhoods, where people will be hiring blackwater to protect their kids on their way to school.
Wow. That's some real communist propaganda there. The gaps between the poor and rich in this country have been smaller in the past 50 years than in any other time period. And regardless, the gap is completely unimportant, what is important is the median standard of living, which has improved consistently in our country.

the majority don't want to envision such a tale, republican or democrat, but a large section of them most the 'baby boomers' (sorry have to pick on someone) have lived a decent life, payed their taxes, worked hard, and really are looking forward to a lush retirement, and aren't to be bothered with the future of americans let alone the world.
I can agree that we certainly have a bad problem with not considering the future. Social security and medicare are the best examples of that!

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May 20th, 2008, 15:55
Originally Posted by V7 View Post
Worth noting also that the PRC hasn't attempted to reunify Taiwan by force dispite a good legal claim to the territory and recognises Mongolia dispite historic claims there.
How does the PRC have a good legal claim? The government of Taiwan was the democratically elected government of all of China, until Mao and his gang decided to stage a revolution.

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May 20th, 2008, 16:08
Originally Posted by blatantninja View Post
How does the PRC have a good legal claim? The government of Taiwan was the democratically elected government of all of China, until Mao and his gang decided to stage a revolution.
Um… Chiang Kai-shek didn't get into power through democratic elections. Nor did his predecessor, Sun Yat-sen. They were revolutionaries and warlords in their own right; only their ideology was different (rightist nationalist as opposed to leftist Communist). Taiwan has evolved towards a democracy since Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek kicked the bucket in 1975, but that's a different story.

[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiang_Kai-shek ]
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Yat-sen ]

As to China's legal claim, to my (limited) understanding it's based on two things: (1) the Beijing government is internationally recognized as the legitimate government of China, and (2) the territorial division of China into PRC and RoC is not internationally recognized. Therefore, Taiwan is legally a part of China. I'm sure V7 can set me straight if I'm mistaken here.

PS. Incidentally, I don't believe that something is necessarily right just because it's legal.
Last edited by Prime Junta; May 20th, 2008 at 17:10. Reason: Added postscript.
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May 20th, 2008, 17:09
Pretty much correct. No one currently disputes Taiwan is part of China, the ROC has spent the last sixty years claiming to be the government of all of China (including I believe the Mongolia the PRC recognises as independent although I may be out of date on that one). The issue between the PRC and the ROC is over the legitimate government of all of China not whether Taiwan is part of it or not. Since the ROC democratised there's been increasing muttering about changing this and declaring independence but thus far all they've done is toned down their claims to the rest of China. Now if the ROC decided to formally declare Taiwan an independent sovereign state they could make a reasonable argument based on self determination and de facto independence, that wouldn't invalidate the PRC's claims and it would come down to whether the rest of the world was willing to back Taiwan and probably a shooting war. (Would the US take part? Interesting question.)

With respect to your friend Skaven the ROC would probably have lost China's seat at the UN anyway much as the Taliban was edging out the Northern Alliance from Afghanistan's representative positions prior to the war.

Finally the 'is Taiwan a country?' debate is a non-starter as Taiwan doesn’t claim to be. It has many of the characteristics of an independent state and I personally believe deserves to be one (if only because I think its democracy is a good example to a lot of the other countries in the region and you have to admire a people who cam manage that with the PRC staring at them over the straits) but unless and until Taiwan declares independence the question is moot.
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May 20th, 2008, 17:12
Originally Posted by blatantninja View Post
How does the PRC have a good legal claim? The government of Taiwan was the democratically elected government of all of China, until Mao and his gang decided to stage a revolution.
Democracy is nice, but it doesn't have much to do with sovereignty.
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May 20th, 2008, 17:29
Originally Posted by Prime Junta View Post
As to China's legal claim, to my (limited) understanding it's based on two things: (1) the Beijing government is internationally recognized as the legitimate government of China, and (2) the territorial division of China into PRC and RoC is not internationally recognized. Therefore, Taiwan is legally a part of China. I'm sure V7 can set me straight if I'm mistaken here.
The legal status is still in question. Japan never said in the Peace Treaty of Taipei who Taiwan belonged to. Interpret that anyway you want because it has been done to death. ROC says it belongs to them since the ROC was in control of Taiwan at the time of the treaty or in more technical terms "uti possidetis." Of course our previous president was of a different opinion and openly sparked tension between China and Taiwan by trying to get a formal declaration of independence.
http://old.npf.org.tw/PUBLICATION/NS…-C-093-187.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Taiwan

PRC says it belongs to them due to pretty much the same argument that they have with Tibet, that it's always been apart of China. However PRC hasn't always been a part of China and has never been in control of Taiwan.

This next claim is right out of left field. I didn't even know about this one. Taipei Times reported back in 2006 that the US never transferred sovereignty over to Taiwan, so Taiwan is USA territory. Now I wouldn't mind that at all, I won't have to wait in the NON-Citizen line at the airport when coming back to Taiwan next time
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/edit…/31/2003342809

After all is said and done, it's a complicated matter anyway you look at it.

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May 20th, 2008, 17:35
Yes, it is — which also means that it's far more complex than simply painting the PRC as yet another expansionist Yellow Peril intent on gobbling up its peaceful neighbors. Including India, it appears.
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May 20th, 2008, 17:50
When did the US have control of Taiwan?

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May 20th, 2008, 18:00
Originally Posted by V7 View Post
With respect to your friend Skaven the ROC would probably have lost China's seat at the UN anyway much as the Taliban was edging out the Northern Alliance from Afghanistan's representative positions prior to the war.
Uggg, thanks for comparing Taiwan's status with the Taliban's status. Your probably right in any case because China was becoming more of a power and with Nixon's upcoming visits to China, it was only a matter of time before the UN bowed to the PROC. Still doesn't negate the fact that before they were a country and after *poof* they disappeared off the face of the Earth. In my previous post I mentioned the Treaty of Taipei and as I said in that Japan never said who gets Taiwan and since Taiwan was apart of the ROC then the ROC has control.

Originally Posted by V7 View Post
Finally the 'is Taiwan a country?' debate is a non-starter as Taiwan doesn’t claim to be. It has many of the characteristics of an independent state and I personally believe deserves to be one (if only because I think its democracy is a good example to a lot of the other countries in the region and you have to admire a people who cam manage that with the PRC staring at them over the straits) but unless and until Taiwan declares independence the question is moot.
Uh-huh and if they formally declare independence then they force the USA's hand and then we have WAR for EVERYONE. So which is wiser having a name that doesn't mean anything or war? Right now their status IS the status quo, which is this murky area in which we find ourselves now.

Let's look at it from a different point a view, a more common sense point of view. Does Taiwan have a military, police force, laws, legal representatives, taxes, borders and heck they even have their own stock exchange. So tell me how is that not a country? Because PRC says so? or because the UN and other countries can't make China upset?

Here is a list of the countries that do recognize Taiwan as a country.

Republic of Nauru
Saint Christopher and Nevis
Burkina Faso
Republic of El Salvador
Belize
Palau
The Marshall Islands
Republic of Gambia
Republic of Honduras
Solomon Islands
Republic of Paraguay
Democratic Republic of Sao Tome and Principe
Republic of Panama
Dominican Republic
Kingdom of Swaziland
Republic of Guatemala
Republic of Haiti
Republic of Nicaragua
Apostolic Nunciature
The Vatican

Most are third world countries (Vatican excluded) and most (Vatican excluded) only recognize Taiwan because they send them a lot of aid and I do mean A LOT. The point being here is that there are countries that do recognize Taiwan and by flat out saying that Taiwan is not a country is just plain false. It's a nice grey "safe" area.

As a funny side note, whenever I have to choose what country I'm in when installing a program or signing up online, they always have the country Taiwan. The software devs must recognize Taiwan as a country

Originally Posted by Prime Junta View Post
Yes, it is — which also means that it's far more complex than simply painting the PRC as yet another expansionist Yellow Peril intent on gobbling up its peaceful neighbors. Including India, it appears.
I'll remember that the next time China wants to do some saber rattling with military exercises. All of these military exercises, espcially since the previous Taiwanese president has been in office, has put me on edge with anything to do with China and it's global goals.

Originally Posted by blatantninja View Post
When did the US have control of Taiwan?
At the end of WWII. When Japan surrendered to the US. Taiwan was a part of Japan then. I'm guessing here because I never knew this fun fact until today. I thought I heard every theory out there but that one is new to me.

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Last edited by skavenhorde; May 20th, 2008 at 18:32.
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May 21st, 2008, 01:47
Originally Posted by skavenhorde View Post
Uggg, thanks for comparing Taiwan's status with the Taliban's status.
Actually I compared the ROC to the Northern Alliance and the PRC to the Taliban.

Originally Posted by skavenhorde View Post
Still doesn't negate the fact that before they were a country and after *poof* they disappeared off the face of the Earth. In my previous post I mentioned the Treaty of Taipei and as I said in that Japan never said who gets Taiwan and since Taiwan was apart of the ROC then the ROC has control.
And you're still missing the point, I could write you a 30 page analysis but really it comes down to:

ROC: 'We're the government of China'
PRC: 'Are not, we are.'
('Nuh uh!'
'Uh huh!')
Rest of the world: 'PRC is the government of China'

Everyone, including Taiwan, agrees Taiwan is part of China. The ROC wasn't a country before, it was a government, and it didn't *poof* off the face of the earth it was replaced by the PRC, while, unusually in this sort of situation, managing to hang on to some isolated territory.

Originally Posted by skavenhorde View Post
Uh-huh and if they formally declare independence then they force the USA's hand and then we have WAR for EVERYONE. So which is wiser having a name that doesn't mean anything or war? Right now their status IS the status quo, which is this murky area in which we find ourselves now.

Let's look at it from a different point a view, a more common sense point of view. Does Taiwan have a military, police force, laws, legal representatives, taxes, borders and heck they even have their own stock exchange. So tell me how is that not a country? Because PRC says so? or because the UN and other countries can't make China upset?
Seriously, if you can't assert you're an independent state you're not, thatís a fundamental, no ifs or buts, you need to claim you're independent and the rest of the world needs to recognise your claim if you want to be a state. IF you can't even say you're independent then you're not sovereign.


Originally Posted by skavenhorde View Post
Here is a list of the countries that do recognize Taiwan as a country.

Republic of Nauru
Saint Christopher and Nevis
Burkina Faso
Republic of El Salvador
Belize
Palau
The Marshall Islands
Republic of Gambia
Republic of Honduras
Solomon Islands
Republic of Paraguay
Democratic Republic of Sao Tome and Principe
Republic of Panama
Dominican Republic
Kingdom of Swaziland
Republic of Guatemala
Republic of Haiti
Republic of Nicaragua
Apostolic Nunciature
The Vatican

Most are third world countries (Vatican excluded) and most (Vatican excluded) only recognize Taiwan because they send them a lot of aid and I do mean A LOT. The point being here is that there are countries that do recognize Taiwan and by flat out saying that Taiwan is not a country is just plain false. It's a nice grey "safe" area.
Itís a nice list, the important point is that they don't recognise Taiwan as a country, they recognise China as a country and the ROC as the government of China (currently, unfortunately stuck on a small island on the edge of China but the legitimate government of China). Its a farce, everyone knows its about Taiwanese aid and investment (or in the case of the Vatican historical ties and the relative treatment of religious minorities by the ROC and PRC) and even if Taiwan claimed to be a separate state those countries wouldn't be sufficient to establish international recognition.
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May 21st, 2008, 04:57
Originally Posted by V7 View Post
And you're still missing the point, I could write you a 30 page analysis but really it comes down to:.
And you could add that 30 page analysis to the others already around. Bottom line we are like China and Taiwan. I say it is a country, you say it isn't. I'm sure China appreciates your support but seriously this is getting old. I've provided links to back up the reason I think this way. Talked about the treaties and how they are interpreted in different ways and now we are down to the international recognition.

If you don't believe me or think I'm missing the point then read some of the links I have added below.

The Taiwan Relations Act -
http://usinfo.state.gov/eap/Archive_…tions_Act.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_Relations_Act
This act allows America to treat Taiwan as a country. I don't officially have an embassy here but AIT the American Institute in Taiwan is by default my embassy.

About.com's conclusion of the whole "Is Taiwan a country?" question. Once again, it's yes and no.
http://geography.about.com/od/politi…wancountry.htm

A report by the RAND Corporation on what would happen with China-Us relations after the resolution of Taiwan's status. As of right now the status is not resolved one way or the other. I found this an interesting read. It goes into what may happen if Taiwan's status was resolved peacefully or through force. Key point, the issue is unresolved one way or the other.
http://rand.org/pubs/monographs/2007/RAND_MG567.pdf

CIA's Report on the country Taiwan Just had to include this since the CIA seems to assume Taiwan is a country.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat…k/geos/tw.html

Originally Posted by V7 View Post
Everyone, including Taiwan, agrees Taiwan is part of China. The ROC wasn't a country before, it was a government, and it didn't *poof* off the face of the earth it was replaced by the PRC, while, unusually in this sort of situation, managing to hang on to some isolated territory.

Seriously, if you can't assert you're an independent state you're not, that’s a fundamental, no ifs or buts, you need to claim you're independent and the rest of the world needs to recognise your claim if you want to be a state. IF you can't even say you're independent then you're not sovereign.
If you have never been in control of that country, then you don't own that country. Bottom line ROC aka Taiwan is in control of Taiwan, PROC never in control of Taiwan. They have never had any government here, never had any power here.

Originally Posted by V7 View Post
It’s a nice list, the important point is that they don't recognise Taiwan as a country, they recognise China as a country and the ROC as the government of China (currently, unfortunately stuck on a small island on the edge of China but the legitimate government of China). Its a farce, everyone knows its about Taiwanese aid and investment (or in the case of the Vatican historical ties and the relative treatment of religious minorities by the ROC and PRC) and even if Taiwan claimed to be a separate state those countries wouldn't be sufficient to establish international recognition:.
Important point being here is that they are recognized and it wasn't so much a farce in the past. Up until recently the main objective of the ROC was to retake China. The PLA never managed to completely wipe out the ROC. The ROC lost the cival war, retreated to Taiwan and have remained in power over the lands that they control, in this case Taiwan. With the ROC in control of Taiwan and PROC in control of the rest of China. Once again key point being that the ROC is in control of Taiwan.

The only problem with the ROC is that no one recognizes them except a very few. Why? because of China. We don't want to upset the sleeping dragon. But the fact remains that Taiwan is independant from China. If not in name but in actions. The PROC has no control over Taiwan. Never has.

Conclusion: The issue of Taiwan is unresolved. It isn't officially recognized in many countries but it is treated as a seperate entity from China. So we are back to the murky area we find ourselves, where we are both right and both wrong.

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May 21st, 2008, 08:34
Originally Posted by skavenhorde View Post
The only problem with the ROC is that no one recognizes them except a very few. Why? because of China. We don't want to upset the sleeping dragon. But the fact remains that Taiwan is independant from China. If not in name but in actions. The PROC has no control over Taiwan. Never has.
Not to mention that it would be kinda ridiculous to recognize Taiwan but not recognize the PRC. Which, as you've noted, is the current other option, since there's no way to recognize both.
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