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Default Diablo 3 - Deep in Hell with Leonard Boyarsky

July 4th, 2008, 07:48
Originally Posted by zakhal View Post
Duke3d had a story too - the main character cracked jokes all the time during the game and there were cutsceens in it too - but I dont remember anyone calling it a story shooter.But in the end you can of course call it anything you like - its just a matter of taste. For me though few monologues and pretty cutsceens does not a story make in a roleplaying game. I want to roleplay a story - not a monologue or cutsceen (how do you roleplay a cutsceen video?).

Also before you argue read the phrase which started this argument:


Somone claimed that diablo2 has a good story? That sounds like its planescape torment or somthing (the game people usually praise for a good story).
Diablo has a story, and imo it is good and shows potential. Which is simply an opinion. And opinions cannot be argued. But the fact that there is a story there is undeniable. And comparing it to Duke3D, Wolfenstein3D is an unfair exaggeration. There was a lot more effort put into story elements in Diablo(especially Diablo 2) than in those games.

I never said it's like PS:T. Far from it. But it is good and enjoyable. And watching the CG cinematics in Diablo 2 sometimes gave me more feeling and brought more atmosphere to the game than I've experienced in some other rpgs.
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July 4th, 2008, 08:31
There is a story in Diablo 2, and it's not unlike a story you'd find in a typical CRPG. The only thing that isn't there in that regard, is real NPC dialogue interaction. They just tell you what you need to know, so to speak.

The story is pretty fleshed out, and there are numerous NPCs in each of the five acts that have a lot of things to say - and the story is very easy to follow and represents a nice incentive to go kill the bad guys.

Whether you like that or not is one thing, but there's no way to claim that Diablo 2 doesn't have a story without displaying ignorance of the game. If you haven't really played it, then just admit it and get on with it.
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July 4th, 2008, 13:43
Originally Posted by Arma View Post
Closer to the truth is that the world of Diablo is very well fleshed out.
Yes, maybe, but it isn't presented as such.

This is why the actual presentation of a story doesn't need to be underestimated …

Someone once said that … well, in my ears it arrived like that:

"[D2] is an ooooh so much strategical game ! You need soooo much strategy to beat the enemies!"

"What ?" I asked myself in thoughts, "D2 is an strategy game ? You need actual strategy in that ? So why did i manage to pass through this game with no strategy at all ?

And - is this the same strategy like I've encountered like in the Realms of Arcania games (combat sections) ?"

Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction. (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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July 4th, 2008, 14:35
Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer View Post
Yes, maybe, but it isn't presented as such.

This is why the actual presentation of a story doesn't need to be underestimated …
Wait. Didn't you just say the other day that you skipped all the cut-scenes between the Acts? No wonder you're claiming the game has no story

"Chess in particular had always annoyed him. It was the dumb way the pawns went off and slaughtered their fellow pawns while the kings lounged about doing nothing that always got to him; if only the pawns united, maybe talked the rooks around, the whole board could've been a republic in a dozen moves." - Commander Vimes in Thud! by Terry Pratchett
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July 4th, 2008, 14:49
Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer View Post
"What ?" I asked myself in thoughts, "D2 is an strategy game ? You need actual strategy in that ? So why did i manage to pass through this game with no strategy at all ?
Not really strategy, but maybe combat tactics. And not for Normal difficulty. You can pretty much breeze through it with just 2-3 abilities. When you reach Nightmare and Hell difficulties I'll bet you'll have to be careful who/what/when you attack with what abilities. Because there are pretty strong incentives to not die in higher difficulties. Besides loosing gold you also loose experience.
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July 4th, 2008, 17:47
Originally Posted by fatBastard() View Post
Wait. Didn't you just say the other day that you skipped all the cut-scenes between the Acts? No wonder you're claiming the game has no story


I think you're right !

Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction. (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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July 4th, 2008, 17:51
Alrik, would you let us know how far in Diablo 2 you managed to get? Did you complete normal difficulty, did you play the expansion, Lord of Destruction, which contains the fifth act? Did you play at nightmare or hell difficulty? Did you play with more than one character build? Did you play multiplayer or LAN?

There's no reason why you should have, of course, since you dislike the game, the company that made it and everything it stands for, but I'm curious how far you got before you wrote it off.

Without a deeper experience of the game, we are discussing at cross purposes. The core of Diablo is extensive replay, and replay at high difficulty. You aren't going to see the content, the strategy and the point of the game in one playthrough at normal difficulty.

Therefor when you make these remarks about no story and no strategy, they aren't false, but they aren't exactly accurate either. I don't think you would have liked the game any better if you'd gone further, but at least you might understand what other people are saying a bit more.

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July 4th, 2008, 18:04
I played D2 & LOD, normal difficulty, with skipped cinematics , just until I came to a monster which was later described by a friend as the very last end boss. It was inside of kind of a citadel high above the mountains guarded by the Barbarians.

The friend told me that this end boss should disappear after being (almost ?) beaten and reappear somewhere else where I would have to beat this creature at last.

My own problem was that I made an Amazone character who was specializing in using a bow, and which was accompanied by one female hunter from the early game, because I didn't want this accompanied character to get lost.

I equipped both (an Valkyrie was summoned later) with the finest stuff I had.

My only *real* wrong decision was to follow "The Path Of Collecting" and equip my both characters so that the monster dropment of magical items would increase.

That increased the amount of Unique items very much, so much that it stuffed both inventories.

Now, I didn't want to let these Unique Items go.

Which resulted in utter frustration, because the inventory(s) were so small.

At this point I decided to rather stop the game, also, because the "last boss" proved to be very, very difficult with my … what you might call a "Collector Build".

At this point I stopped this game.

But i have tried out all other characters as well, of which my Sorceress is the most developed so far - with one emphasis on "Warmth", because it reminds me of the "Reiki" in Sacred.

I could do some screenshots, if you wish (I already have some), and I've made a list of these so-funny-sounding translated names.

Because the system of prefixes and suffixes and names works very well with the English grammar,
but with German grammar it rather often sounds just funny.

P.S. : If possible, I could send you an savegame for your pleasure & fun.

Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction. (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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July 4th, 2008, 18:52
So you made quite a foray into it! I understand a little more now what you mean. The "collector build" (all your gear being +% find magic item) is hard to carry into the endgame unless you compensate for it in some way with a very effective skill set. I'd definitely enjoy looking at some of the German language suffixes and prefixes—they are silly enough in English, let alone in German.

But you see now what I mean about strategy—if you change the way you built your character, say made a javelin based Amazon, or the merc you took along, or even your gear, you would have a different gameplay strategy. This just gets more and more so as you increase in the difficulty levels, so that everything, every item, every skill, is complementary and effective. And, yes, ultimately along with the 'good' side, it is a grind game about the loot, I think—and I can see where it gets old for many.

PM headed your way about the save game.

Where there's smoke, there's mirrors.
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July 5th, 2008, 02:34
I sent you a Pm.

I rather played the game innocently, without noticing much there was a possibility to do different "builts".

All I wanted to do is "play", without … well, it simply was no role to play in it for me.

I think I was naive when I played it.

Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction. (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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July 5th, 2008, 15:41
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Whether you like that or not is one thing, but there's no way to claim that Diablo 2 doesn't have a story without displaying ignorance of the game. If you haven't really played it, then just admit it and get on with it.
Whether you like it or not I have played "the game" and have seen the "non-existing" story. Sorry but handful of monologues does not story make in a roleplaying game imho.

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July 5th, 2008, 16:08
Originally Posted by zakhal View Post
Whether you like it or not I have played "the game" and have seen the "non-existing" story. Sorry but handful of monologues does not story make in a roleplaying game imho.
I think we've established what you think

That's what I meant when I said you were displaying ignorance of the game.

I can't force you to acknowledge that there's a story, nor would I want to try.
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July 5th, 2008, 16:16
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
I think we've established what you think

That's what I meant when I said you were displaying ignorance of the game.

I can't force you to acknowledge that there's a story, nor would I want to try.
Its a matter of taste. I dont consider monologue a story in a roleplaying game. I wish you would respect that instead of calling it "ignorance".

I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel. - Maya Angelou
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July 5th, 2008, 17:02
Originally Posted by zakhal View Post
Its a matter of taste. I dont consider monologue a story in a roleplaying game. I wish you would respect that instead of calling it "ignorance".
I can't possibly let you define what a story is.

We have dictionaries for that, or at least we have general perceptions. I can respect that you don't think the story is good or that it's totally lacking in whatever qualities you think it should have. However, the story is there and nothing you say or do will change that. Claiming it ISN'T there is what I call ignorance of the game.

It's like you saying the color blue is yellow, and I should respect that. I'm sorry, I can't.

However, if you don't like blue or you don't think blue is a good color to apply to whatever painting, then that's another matter entirely and naturally I can accept that.

But no, objective reality is not a matter of taste.
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July 5th, 2008, 21:50
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
It's like you saying the color blue is yellow, and I should respect that. I'm sorry, I can't.
To jump in the well of sollopsism, while you might agree that a particular wavelength of light is blue, you've no way of knowing that someone isn't actually seeing what you think of as 'yellow' when they are seeing something 'blue'

Philosophy aside, I agree with you - IMHO a monologue can certainly be a story, regardless of whether it's in a roleplaying game or not. The question being asked is probably whether the game is roleplaying or not if the story is fixed.
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July 5th, 2008, 22:18
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
I can't possibly let you define what a story is.

We have dictionaries for that, or at least we have general perceptions. I can respect that you don't think the story is good or that it's totally lacking in whatever qualities you think it should have. However, the story is there and nothing you say or do will change that. Claiming it ISN'T there is what I call ignorance of the game.
Im not defining anything - Im just telling you what story usually is in a computer roleplaying game. If you look at a classic example of roleplaying game - i.e fallout abt 99% of the story is told through the dialogue with npcs. That part is pretty much non-existant in diablo so its fair to say that there is no good story in it.

If you havent allready noticed it note that Im talking abt "story in crpg" - not just "story".
Role-playing games are a form of interactive and collaborative storytelling.

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"Those who dont read history are destined to repeat it." Edmund Burke
Last edited by zakhal; July 5th, 2008 at 22:38.
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July 5th, 2008, 22:54
Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
To jump in the well of sollopsism, while you might agree that a particular wavelength of light is blue, you've no way of knowing that someone isn't actually seeing what you think of as 'yellow' when they are seeing something 'blue'
The point is that I don't need to know

To me, the objective reality is that the color blue is blue, regardless of how it's perceived by others. So, when someone tells me that blue is yellow, I tell them that I can't accept that.

Certainly, objective reality could be an illusion and maybe it's all subjective, but I don't care.

Philosophy aside, I agree with you - IMHO a monologue can certainly be a story, regardless of whether it's in a roleplaying game or not. The question being asked is probably whether the game is roleplaying or not if the story is fixed.
I don't think there's a question being asked, or maybe I'm just not aware of it.

A story is a story no matter what kind of game surrounds it, and the level of player interaction is not relevant to that. If interaction and possible alteration was required to tell a story, then books or movies wouldn't exist as we know them.

In any case, I've personally given up on trying to clearly define what a computer roleplaying game is, and what features must be present.

I have no problem considering Diablo 2 a CRPG, as it contains numerous elements of the genre - and I don't think the fixed story is an obstacle in that regard. Many dynamic stories are really static stories with a few variations of a few outcomes, anyway.

Nah, I don't see it.

In my opinion, to get an experience close to the "real deal" of PnP roleplaying, I think interaction with other human beings is MUCH more important - which just happens to be possible in Diablo 2. In that way, Diablo 2 is closer to PnP than many singleplayer CRPGs with strong and dynamic stories.
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July 5th, 2008, 23:01
Im not defining anything - Im just telling you what story usually is in a computer roleplaying game. If you look at a classic example of roleplaying game - i.e fallout abt 99% of the story is told through the dialogue with npcs. That part is pretty much non-existant in diablo so its fair to say that there is no good story in it.
I know what a story is.

Roleplaying games come in many forms - and most of them have stories of one kind or another. Some have static stories, others have dynamic stories.

Yes, it's fair to have an opinion about the value of the story, and if you think it's no good then maybe it would have been wise to say so, instead of claiming the story was non-existant.

If you havent allready noticed it note that Im talking abt "story in crpg" - not just "story".
Whatever you've been talking about, you've claimed that there was no story in Diablo 2. I've told you there is, and that's been my concern here and nothing else.
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July 5th, 2008, 23:05
Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
The question being asked is probably whether the game is roleplaying or not if the story is fixed.
Diablo is pretty much defined as the definition of roleplaying game. Its even listed as best selling computer roleplaying game ever and credited as the game that revived the roleplaying genre back in its days. So its hard to say that it isnt a crpg. Besides roleplaying games dont really need much of story to be defined as such - even in early ones the story was pretty much non-existant (look at ultima1 or wizardry1).

As for whether monologue is a good story (like somone originally claimed) in computer roleplaying game - thats the thing Im asking.

I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel. - Maya Angelou
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Last edited by zakhal; July 5th, 2008 at 23:22.
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July 5th, 2008, 23:10
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
I know what a story is.
Roleplaying games come in many forms - and most of them have stories of one kind or another. Some have static stories, others have dynamic stories.
Yes but when talking about story (especially good story) in a computer roleplaying game its fair to say that the story in question is mostly told in the form of dialogue. Its silly to call that ignorance.
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Whatever you've been talking about, you've claimed that there was no story in Diablo 2. I've told you there is, and that's been my concern here and nothing else.
Let me correct it then by saying there is no good story in it - in terms of what story is usually defined as in a computer roleplaying game. Thats the thing I was referring to anyways.

If you dont want to understand the point of the argument then please stop arguing about it - othervice you are just wasting our time.

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Last edited by zakhal; July 5th, 2008 at 23:21.
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