Elections in the USA tomorrow…

@PJ: By that logic, I should "hate" all Arabs after seeing footage of 2 towns dancing in the streets after 9-11. Those towns are, by your definition, an integral part of the Arab world, and as such, can be used to paint the opinions of the entire region and all its people. Which, by extension, means that I can paint you as such as well, yes?

I never said I hate all Americans. That would be wrong. Besides, I know personally and like very much quite many Americans.

As I said, it's America the state, polity, and idea that I hate. That's different, more like your hatred of the ideas and organizations behind 9/11.

Are you saying that America is really a terrorist organisation? That's the implication!!!!

The term "terrorist organization" only refers to non-state actors, so obviously America does not fit that definition.

Let's not equivocate and split hairs over defining precise terms!! Do YOU consider them to be 'terrorists'?

@Corwin — I'm not equivocating, nor am I splitting hairs. I'm just trying to be as precise as possible when using some highly charged terms. "Terrorism" has a very specific meaning. It means violent action designed to achieve political means through terrorizing the population. Applying the term to state actions stretches the definition in ways I find problematic, even if terms like "shock and awe" have very similar definitions.

Second, I don't want to lump all terrorists together. Terrorists come in an enormous variety of organizations, motivations, causes, and idelogies, from FARC in Columbia and Sendero Luminoso in Peru, to the Liberation Tigers Tamil Eelam in Sri Lanka, the French Resistance fighters in World War II to the Mujahideen who fought the Soviets in Afghanistan, the Aum Shinri Kyo to the Japanese Red Army to the Brigadi Rossi, the ETA to the IRA… and of course the variety of organizations inspired by Sayyed Qutb's legacy.

Some of these organizations fight or fought for causes that are undeniably just using tactics that are cleaner than those used by most states and regular armies. Others fight or fought for for utopias that can never be realized and did not or don't care how many people they kill in the process, or whether they're killed themselves. All have looked into the abyss and been changed by it.

So, my answer to that specific question of yours is still "no, because America is a state and terrorists are defined as non-state actors." However, I have a feeling that that's not the question you're really interested in.

Had you asked me if I consider Americans to be terrorists, I would have to answer "no" as well, because not all Americans are active supporters of the American ideology.

However, had you asked me if I consider the state/ideology of America to be the moral equivalent of the organization/ideology of Al Qaeda, I would have answered "more or less, give or take a few years in purgatory either way."

And yes, that makes the leaders of America today the moral equivalents of the leaders of Al Qaeda, the foot-soldiers of America today the moral equivalents of the foot-soldiers of Al Qaeda, and the sympathizers of America today the moral equivalents of the sympathizers of Al Qaeda.

That basically, was what I was asking!! In some ways I agree with aspects of what you say, though I'd probably say they are more bullies than terrorists!!

OK, glad we got that sorted out. Perhaps we could go back to discussing role-playing games now?

Nah, this is the religion and politics forum!!

Originally Posted by Prime Junta
And yes, that makes the leaders of America today the moral equivalents of the leaders of Al Qaeda, the foot-soldiers of America today the moral equivalents of the foot-soldiers of Al Qaeda, and the sympathizers of America today the moral equivalents of the sympathizers of Al Qaeda.

This is so incredibly off-base and insulting that it doesn't merit a serious response. You're entitled to your opinion, so we'll just move on.

@dteowner — I'm sure you'll find it insulting, if you belong to any of the groups listed (leaders, foot-soldiers, or sympathizers of Al Qaeda or America).

But how is it off-base? Because your mission to export your twisted brand of democracy is more noble than their mission to export their twisted brand of Islam, no matter how many people die in the process? Because you're the "good" ones and they're the "evil" ones? Or something else that I've missed, perhaps?

I will refer to my previous example. You don't see Americans dancing in the streets if nearly 3000 people are killed in cold blood. Taking joy in mass killing is a rather significant difference between "us" and "them". And before you go quoting the recent "150,000 dead Iraqis" report, make sure you seperate out those killed by US forces from those killed by each other.

American citizen puts a stamp that's probably 200.000 Dollars worth on an ballot paper . It's in German.

There's a picture of that stamp there.

@dteowner — Claiming that Americans are only responsible for those Iraqis actually killed directly by Americans, rather than indirectly as a result of the disaster caused by the American invasion, is both despicable and cowardly. As Colin Powell put it, "you break it, you own it." (BTW, The Lancet puts it at 625,000 dead Iraqis. I don't see any reason to think their numbers are off.)

Dancing in the streets when you got a taste of your own medicine is mild in comparison. You're far more efficient mass murderers than Al Qaeda could ever be. Unless they manage to get their hands on a nuke, of course. (But then, you're the ones with the experience of dropping nukes on civilians, not them…)

Ever read the Free Republic, by the way? There's plenty of "dancing in the streets" there, every time something bad happens to Arabs. Would you like me to give you some links? It's at http://www.freerepublic.com/ if you're interested. Check out the commentary on the Middle East articles.

I know someone who's of the opinion that humanity as a whole should be wiped out, because humankind is the source of all evil, or something along those lines.

As for condemning whole countries, I don't know. Call me naïve but to me there's just too many innocents part of any country to warrant such contempt.

Originally Posted by Prime Junta
There's plenty of "dancing in the streets" there, every time something bad happens to Arabs.

Are you kidding me? Have you ever been to America? I have never seen or even heard of celebrations over bad things happening in Arab nations. Maybe I'm wrong… Can you give a specific link? I saw nothing about dancing in the streets.

I recently read about some research where it was discovered that discussing highly charged issues like this one only serves to harden attitudes. I can feel it happening right now. A few more pages for this, and *I'll* be (belatedly) dancing in the streets about 9/11, as well as shopping for a nuke to ship to D.C., so I think it's better to call it quits now. Thanks for the discussion, everyone.

To answer Korplem, though — yes, I've been to America. I've lived there for three years, and visited maybe a half-dozen times, the last time in 2004. Here's a photo I took on the road to Walla Walla in Washington State:



And here's one from Monterey:

Ok, agree to disagree. I'll just keep thinking you're more or less nuts and you can keep thinking I'm the moral equivalent of a foot soldier of Al Qaeda. (That was meant as a friendly joke, not a malicious jab)

No comment on my link ? Sad.

Sorry Arlik, don't read German. According to the news, there were actually 4 collectable stamps on that envelope. The "Inverted Jenny" was by far the most valuable, but the other 3 were worth thousands as well.