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RPGWatch Forums » General Forums » Politics, Religion & other Controversies » Should Bush Administration Be Prosecuted for Torture?

View Poll Results - Should Bush & Co be prosecuted for torture, and if so by whom?

Yes. Everyone involved should be prosecuted if guilty by the Us govt. 3 8.11%
Yes. Everyone involved should be prosecuted if guilty by an international court. 12 32.43%
Only those who authorized illegal procedures should be prosecuted if guilty by the Us govt. 9 24.32%
Only those who authorized should be prosecuted if guilty by an international court. 5 13.51%
No one should be prosecuted by anyone even if guilty. 6 16.22%
Other 2 5.41%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

Default Should Bush Administration Be Prosecuted for Torture?

January 23rd, 2009, 15:09
And you (conservative americans) bitch if anyone second guesses you, even if they happen to be right (WMD in Iraq…?)

Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
You don't care for our approach? Step up, boys. Get yer hands a little dirty and show us how you think it should be done. We'll be happy to take a break if you'd like a turn with the shovel.
But of course you wouldn't be happy, not really. Deep down you are convinced that only you can do it, and only you can do it right, and others should damn well shut up and do as they are told. And that is the problem.
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January 23rd, 2009, 15:11
Exactly, JDR.

Waaaa! Bush could have prevented 9-11 if he used the intelligence community and better interrogation! Waaaa! Bush is relying too much on a flawed intelligence community! Waaaa! Bush is being too mean with his interrogation! Waaaa! America's evil because they don't hang Bush!

Here's yer pacifier. Now run along because the adults have work to do.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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January 23rd, 2009, 15:29
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Now run along because the adults have work to do.
And here you are refering to Obama. And yes, there are work to do. Much work indeed.

Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind. - John F Kennedy
An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
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January 23rd, 2009, 15:32
Originally Posted by Prime Junta View Post
Dte, there are plenty of countries in the world where terrorism is a daily occurrence. If you believe the USA is the only one doing anything about it, you're seriously out of touch with reality. Calling countries like Germany, France, the UK, Spain, or Japan "benchwarmers" is not only inaccurate, it's also extremely insulting, or ignorant. Red Army Force, Groupe Islamique Armée, IRA, ETA, Aum Shinri Kyo or Japanese Red Army ring any faint bells, perhaps?

The USA is the one that's new to this game. It not only "second-guessed," but completely refused to listen to any of the countries with extensive experience fighting terrorism, but called them "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" into the bargain.

And no, we haven't forgotten that yet.
Where are they at, PJ? Don't see anyone standing in front of us in the parade. Don't see anyone even next to us. Don't even see a different parade going a different direction but still going somewhere.

Let's consider the effectiveness of kid-gloves methodology like you prefer. How long did the IRA run wild? Think we can let Osama and the boys have carte blanche for 30 years so we don't offend your sensibilities? How about our Japanese subway killers? A handful of nuts with minimal (relatively speaking) funding managed to shut down Japan's subway system and kill a crowd or two. Think we can talk nicely to Osama with his numbers and his funding so we don't offend your sensibilities?

If y'all have the answers, take the frickin' wheel. If, like GBG's thought, you will come up with any excuse to justify staying in the passenger seat, then you're stuck going wherever the driver takes you.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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January 23rd, 2009, 15:36
Originally Posted by V7 View Post
So I think we're entitled to an opinion. Its not as if you care or pay any attention even when it would benefit you to do so.

Your skills have improved, Padawan. The hypocrisy is strong within you.
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January 23rd, 2009, 15:47
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
They bitch if we do nothing about terrorism.
Been a long time since I've seen the US do nothing about terrorism, the unflinching support for Israel alone has been an active contributor to global terrorism for a while now.
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January 23rd, 2009, 15:48
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
None of those countries had 2,974 people killed in a single morning by a terrorist organization. I'd be willing to bet their opinion on waterboarding (assuming they oppose it) might be a little different if they had been the ones on the receiving end of 9-11.
Torture's only okay if it's Jack Bauer doing it.
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January 23rd, 2009, 15:50
Originally Posted by V7 View Post
And how long are you gonig to milk 9/11 for political point scoring?
Could be a while yet, Israel's still going strong on the holocaust.
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January 23rd, 2009, 15:58
Originally Posted by Prime Junta View Post
Dte, there are plenty of countries in the world where terrorism is a daily occurrence. If you believe the USA is the only one doing anything about it, you're seriously out of touch with reality. Calling countries like Germany, France, the UK, Spain, or Japan "benchwarmers" is not only inaccurate, it's also extremely insulting, or ignorant.
The current global insight terrorism ratings for the countries you've mentioned are as follows:

UK 2.3
France 1.9
Spain 1.8
Denmark 1.5
Germany 1.3
Mauritius 1.3
US 1.3
Netherlands 1.1
Sweden 0.9
Estonia 0.7
Japan 0.7
Canada 0.6
Ireland 0.5
Finland 0.4
Switzerland 0.4
Austria 0.3
Iceland 0.3
New Zealand 0.3

So the US is only somewhere in the middle. Ratings are out of 10 btw.
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January 23rd, 2009, 16:00
Originally Posted by Benedict View Post
the unflinching support for Israel alone has been an active contributor to global terrorism for a while now.
Can't dispute that point one bit…

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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January 23rd, 2009, 16:01
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Let's consider the effectiveness of kid-gloves methodology like you prefer. How long did the IRA run wild? Think we can let Osama and the boys have carte blanche for 30 years so we don't offend your sensibilities?
After we stopped retaliating violently against them? A few years of any significance, not much more than a decade before they were completely irrelevant.

The ONLY long term solution is a diplomatic, economic and political one. A war on terror will never be won because fighting it only breeds more terrorists.
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January 23rd, 2009, 16:05
Originally Posted by Benedict View Post
The current global insight terrorism ratings for the countries you've mentioned are as follows:

UK 2.3
France 1.9
Spain 1.8
Denmark 1.5
Germany 1.3
Mauritius 1.3
US 1.3
Netherlands 1.1
Sweden 0.9
Estonia 0.7
Japan 0.7
Canada 0.6
Ireland 0.5
Finland 0.4
Switzerland 0.4
Austria 0.3
Iceland 0.3
New Zealand 0.3

So the US is only somewhere in the middle. Ratings are out of 10 btw.
I see 2 points hiding in that list. First, even Switzerland gets hit, which calls into question the theory that political neutrality, "don't piss off anyone", is a cure-all by any stretch. Second, the countries very recently held up as shining examples of progressive counter-terrorism don't seem to be getting the results you'd expect.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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Last edited by dteowner; January 23rd, 2009 at 16:07. Reason: double negatives suck
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January 23rd, 2009, 16:14
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Where are they at, PJ? Don't see anyone standing in front of us in the parade. Don't see anyone even next to us. Don't even see a different parade going a different direction but still going somewhere.
Why don't you open your eyes, then?

You really don't realize how insulting this attitude of yours is, do you? You really do believe the US is the only country in the world doing something about terrorism, don't you?

All I can say to that is that you really *do* live in a different reality than the rest of us.

Let's consider the effectiveness of kid-gloves methodology like you prefer. How long did the IRA run wild? Think we can let Osama and the boys have carte blanche for 30 years so we don't offend your sensibilities? How about our Japanese subway killers? A handful of nuts with minimal (relatively speaking) funding managed to shut down Japan's subway system and kill a crowd or two. Think we can talk nicely to Osama with his numbers and his funding so we don't offend your sensibilities?
It's not a matter of my sensibilities. It's a matter of doing things that (a) actually work, and (b) don't destroy the very thing we're attempting to defend. You've spent a couple of trillion dollars on your GWOT by now. Yet Osama is still cheerfully sending proclamations.

What you clearly aren't able to accept is that there are problems for which there is no quick fix. Some things just take 30 years to solve, and attempting to solve them in 4 or 8 years will only make them worse, either immediately or in the long run. Your big unspoken assumption is that the USA has the means to defeat terrorism in 4 or 8 years, if only it chooses to use those means. My contention is that it doesn't: nobody and nothing does. These things take time, patience, intelligence, and subtlety.

If y'all have the answers, take the frickin' wheel. If, like GBG's thought, you will come up with any excuse to justify staying in the passenger seat, then you're stuck going wherever the driver takes you.
We haven't been sitting in the passenger's seat as much as looking on in shock as some goon on speed takes his monster truck crashing through the neighborhood. Much sound and fury, much destruction, precious few results.
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January 23rd, 2009, 16:16
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
I see 2 points hiding in that list. First, even Switzerland gets hit, which calls into question the theory that political neutrality, "don't piss off anyone", is a cure-all by any stretch. Second, the countries very recently held up as shining examples of progressive counter-terrorism don't seem to be getting the results you'd expect.
LOL! That was a beautiful flip-flop — first you say that these countries are only nice because they don't have any terrorism to deal with; now you say that they have terrorism to deal with because they're too nice to deal with it. Heads I win, tails you lose: whatever the facts, they prove your preconceived notion.

Lovely, I'm gonna bookmark this thread for future reference.
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January 23rd, 2009, 16:35
Originally Posted by Prime Junta View Post
We haven't been sitting in the passenger's seat as much as looking on in shock as some goon on speed takes his monster truck crashing through the neighborhood. Much sound and fury, much destruction, precious few results.
Then, once again, take the kerchief from your nose, hop in your Pininfarina, and drive us to the promised land.

It's not a case of being insulting. I point out that the slams on America, as usual, show up in this thread well before I even posted my diatribe. I'm completely, honestly, and respectfully challenging y'all to lead. I don't think you'll do it, because it's much, much easier to complain than to act (or patently refuse to act, in your case), but I'd very much like to hand off the baton. Who knows—you might turn out to better at it than I give you credit for, and then we all gain. This situation is quite similar to the Obama thing. I'm completely worn out defending the crown, so I'm content to take my turn sitting in the passenger seat and bitching incessantly. I don't get any control over the destination, but the trip itself is going to be far less stressful and, if I do my job right, y'all will get a taste of your own medicine.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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January 23rd, 2009, 16:41
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
I see 2 points hiding in that list. First, even Switzerland gets hit, which calls into question the theory that political neutrality, "don't piss off anyone", is a cure-all by any stretch. Second, the countries very recently held up as shining examples of progressive counter-terrorism don't seem to be getting the results you'd expect.
Switzerland is 0.4 out of ten. Basically none. Some details of the (admittedly minor) terrorist threat in "couldn't ever happen there" switzerland:

The primary terrorism risk stems from Switzerland's extreme left-wing and radical environmentalist groups, who stage peaceful demonstrations, but also small attacks with explosive or incendiary devices against banks and businesses in bigger cities. Such attacks are most likely around the dates of the Davos World Economic Forum in January of each year. Extreme right-wing and skinhead groups, operating mainly in the German-speaking parts of Switzerland and especially in the cantons Schwyz, Zurich, St Gallen, Bern and Aargau, are likely to engage in vandalism and isolated acts of arson or use of small explosive and incendiary devices, most likely against immigrant-related and Jewish-related targets. In May 2007, the Hekhal Hanes synagogue in Geneva was destroyed in an arson attack, while in March 2008, 12 men disrupted a party being held by Turkish people in Biel, causing some property damage and injuring two people. Typical targets are restaurants, religious sites and community centres, but also bars and centres affiliated with extreme left-wing groups. With regards to both right-wing and left-wing militants, no sustained terrorist campaign is likely, but rather small-scale attacks carried out by individuals or small cells. The likelihood of an Islamist terrorist attack in Switzerland is still very limited, but the risk has increased in recent years. Until recently, Switzerland has been a logistical base for Islamist militants, while its geopolitical neutrality discouraged attacks on Swiss territory. This mechanism is no longer effective, due to a radicalisation risk of a minority of Swiss Muslims. Muslim immigrants make up some 4.5% of the population, living nearly exclusively in bigger cities such as Zurich, Bern, Geneva, Basel and Luzern. While the Muslim population is overwhelmingly peaceful, in 2006 the police arrested a dozen suspects who allegedly plotted to shoot down an El-Al plane taking off from Geneva Airport. The plot was far from being realised, but it exemplifies the risk of isolated cells or individuals staging attacks. However, there is no evidence of other plots up to today; the intent to attack Swiss targets is small and capability of emerging cells is likely very limited.
Just because you don't know about it doesn't mean it isn't there.

As for the UK, I'm holding up the way that we dealt with the irish issue as an example of progressive and genuinely successful counter terrorism. Our high rating is due to the regressive, fucked up, let's follow the US no matter WHAT they do supposed "counter" terrorist efforts we've been making.
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January 23rd, 2009, 17:03
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Then, once again, take the kerchief from your nose, hop in your Pininfarina, and drive us to the promised land.

It's not a case of being insulting. I point out that the slams on America, as usual, show up in this thread well before I even posted my diatribe. I'm completely, honestly, and respectfully challenging y'all to lead. .
The very fact that you think it's all about "leading" or "following" is typical of the american mindset. It's not about "leading", it's about everyone generally behaving well of their own accord and acting together.

We don't need America to show leadership. We just need it to stop throwing its weight around like a spoiled child so that any efforts by rest of us to resolve the situation are doomed before they even start. Stop interfering in other countries and hang Israel out to dry and the rest of the Western world will start managing pretty well by themselves.
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January 23rd, 2009, 17:19
Originally Posted by Benedict View Post
The very fact that you think it's all about "leading" or "following" is typical of the american mindset. It's not about "leading", it's about everyone generally behaving well of their own accord and acting together.
Time to put down the Maui Wowie, Mr. Hoffman. Since when, in 2000+ years of recorded human history, have we demonstrated the ability to all behave well of our own accord? Never. Not once. Not even in the same time zone as it. Any mindset with that as the intended goal is flawed beyond hope.

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January 23rd, 2009, 17:26
Originally Posted by Prime Junta View Post
LOL! That was a beautiful flip-flop — first you say that these countries are only nice because they don't have any terrorism to deal with;
I'd very much like you to find a quote from me in this thread that says that, or even something in that general vicinity. I think you'll come up empty, which will probably eliminate the need for a bookmark.

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January 23rd, 2009, 17:38
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Where are they at, PJ? Don't see anyone standing in front of us in the parade. Don't see anyone even next to us. Don't even see a different parade going a different direction but still going somewhere.
Not really.

The tragedy of the previous administration is that you werent alone in the parade. You got almost the entire world standing next to you after 9/11 and got massive support for the Afghanistan operation. Unfortunately GWB threw that sympathy away by going after an Iraqi regime that, while extremely unpleasant, had absolutely zilch to do with Al Qaeda. Blaming the rest of the world for not helping you clean up a terrorist theme park of your own creation is juvenile but was not beneath the diplomatic genius of Bush, Cheney, and my personal favourite Rumsfeld.

Your claim is made even more insulting two of the nations PJ listed have had rather serious terror attacks against their capitals as a result of standing next to you…

Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
It's not a case of being insulting. I point out that the slams on America, as usual, show up in this thread well before I even posted my diatribe.
Who are we supposed to slam in a thread about the naughty behaviour of an American administration? While a discussion of how other countries have conducted their counter-terrorism policies (usually with nasty elements and mostly without prosecution of the responsible, I'll give you that) would be interesting but wasnt really the topic of the thread…
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