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Default Who am I to judge?

November 30th, 2006, 00:51
I grew up with two best friends, Mike and Josh. In late 2004 Josh and I each went separate ways out into the world while Mike was left back in Smalltown, Minnesota.

In late 2005 Mike was caught stealing and pawning off a bunch of stuff from other friends of ours. Stuff like tools, guitars, snowboards, wedding rings(!) etc… A few months ago Josh ended up back in Smalltown, MN and at first he didn't really think anything of it. Then he started putting clues together and realized Mike had also stolen a lot of crap from both of us. Now Josh completely despises Mike.

I, personally, haven't been back to talk with Mike but I've talked to him on the phone and he refuses to admit that he stole anything from us despite evidence that he did. But he also claims to be very remorseful for what he has done, maybe even suicidal.

Now, I am very certain that he is lieing to me; probably because he doesn't want me to hate him. I, obviously, don't feel like I can trust him as much as before but I also don't think he deserves to be hated. I still consider us friends. My question is: Is it that I'm too loyal? Am I just hanging on to my last few childhood memories? Should I just forget him and move on? Is it naive of me to think he won't follow in his fathers footsteps of being a jail bird?

I'm willing to forgive him and try to help him through. But who am I to judge the soul of a man?

Anyway, I'm not really sure what the point of this post is. What are your thoughts?
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November 30th, 2006, 01:29
I think you should just come out of the closet and marry him already.
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November 30th, 2006, 03:49
Some real advice: beat him up. Friends don't steal from friends, so he isn't one. Unless you want to be the "there is only one footprint in the sand because I was carrying you" type, and waste your video game time helping people, let him grow up or grow out of him.

If you try to help him out it could work out or it could not work out. If you beat him up (a form of helping out) you will always have a good story and a fond memory. If you are going to err, err on the side of violence. Its always more entertaining.
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November 30th, 2006, 05:05
I'm a little more forgiving than Roqua. If he'd come clean, I'd be prepared to let it go — although I'd watch him around my stuff.

On the other hand, if he can't be honest about it — stuff him.

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November 30th, 2006, 05:23
He's already had the shit kicked out of him plenty of times since then, even when he was in prison. Also, roqua, if I were to come out of the closet for anybody it'd only be for you!
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November 30th, 2006, 05:39
How old is this guy? If he's in his early 20's or teens maybe he just hasn't found his way in life yet and needs a helping hand.

If he's 30 he is hardened criminal and no going back for him

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November 30th, 2006, 05:57
Originally Posted by Korplem View Post
But who am I to judge the soul of a man?
What? When you apologise, you make a promise to change. When you accept an apology, you choose to believe that promise. If you don't think he'll reoffend, or don't care if he does, then forgive him. "Judging" here means acting in your interests, something which no-one else will do for you. Souls have nothing to do with it.

Edit: Although if you see a conflict between anything here and what Roqua said, naturally Roqua is correct.
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November 30th, 2006, 13:11
There is only one person who can make the change - and that is him. And he is either sorry for his actions, sorry he got caught, or sorry for his lot in life. If there is evidence that he stole from you and he refuses to own up, then he *isn't* sorry - it is as simple as that. He has not taken responsibility for his actions and therefore is not on the road to repair.

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November 30th, 2006, 14:07
Did he steal because he wanted to or is he a cleptomaniac? In that case he is ill and canīt be helt responsible for his actions.
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November 30th, 2006, 15:01
I highly disagree Gorath, everyone is responsible for their actions. Should a child molestor not be held responible for molesting children? Or a sociopathic killer for killing. My daughter is far too yound to understanbd what responsible means, but I still hold her responible for her actions. As soon as someone has an excuse not to try, such as a label saying they aren't to be held responsible, they usually stop trying.

There is no such thing as can't. Cleptomaniacs still have a will. They can try to control themselves, or at the very least take responsibility.

I smoke cigarettes, and I am addicted to them. Does that nullify any responibility on my part to not quit? Should I smoke in the house and blow smoke in my kid's face? Should I say tha starting isn't my fault and any ill that comes to me because i choose, everyday, to continue smoking is the fault of cigarette manufacturers? Or should I own up to my shortcomings and try and overcome them through force of will, intestinal fortitude, gumption, grit, guts, and taking ownership of my actions and how they can affect those around me.
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November 30th, 2006, 18:12
We're meat computers that run on sugar. Constrained by our genes, programmed by our environment. We have no core "I" which makes decisions independently of our programming, and none of us is responsible for his actions. We do as we are. But Korplem doesn't need to decide whether to mete out divine justice to the felon, just whether to continue his association with him. And he should, if the expected utility exceeds the projected cost. :)
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November 30th, 2006, 20:35
if he admits it, you might "forgive" him, as far as you can. BUT your trust in him is damaged and you will never look at him the same way. Your friendschip will also never be the same anymore, but maybe still good enough for you or him.
But he should have a real good excuse why he stole stuff from you or he wouldn't even be wurth to be your friend anymore.
If he don't admit it: just dump him, he isn't wurth the effort.
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November 30th, 2006, 20:40
I can only advise you that for him to change may be possible, but you must be on alert. If you have the strength to be on guard all the time, and to end up possibly betrayed one more time, then make the effort to try and keep the friendship going.

Unfortunately the chances of him changing are slim. If prison didn't wake him up, and the quilt he claims he felt for what he did to you and his friends, I don't hold much hope he will suddenly wakeup one day and be a new man.

Most behavior that is controlable and can be changed, will do so once the person reaches the bottom. He has been there and still wants to repeat the behavior it seems.

Bart and Corwin should just admit that when it gets down to it, I will have the final say.
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November 30th, 2006, 20:42
people can always change if they really want too.
but most of the times they don't want to hard enough or are not trying enough to really change, and those peole will never be able to change

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November 30th, 2006, 21:11
Originally Posted by abbaon View Post
We're meat computers that run on sugar. Constrained by our genes, programmed by our environment. We have no core "I" which makes decisions independently of our programming, and none of us is responsible for his actions. We do as we are. But Korplem doesn't need to decide whether to mete out divine justice to the felon, just whether to continue his association with him. And he should, if the expected utility exceeds the projected cost.
I agree with your last sentence, but the rest is silly. People are programmed to change and adapt to change. There are no uncontrollable behaviors, just people too weak to put in the work needed to control them.

A good example would be the Judge rotenberg education center in Canton, MA. This is a school for students with extreme behavioral disorders. The director and founder of the program was a student of Skinner's.

This school consistently recieves patients of other programs who have "uncontrollable behaviors." Through a non-psychotropic behavior modification program students routinely gain control of uncontrollable behaviors. Rewards and punishments. No psychotropics.

Now, lets say I joined the program. I could get rewarded and punished into quiting smoking, or I could grab my ballsack, man-up, and quit on my own.

The minute I make an excuse and say "I can't, this is out of my control, its not my fault", I lose. As long as I realize that I am in 100% control of all my behaviors, as well as my lot in life I will be better than the people around me, glaring faults and all. Never give up, never pass the buck, take ownership and take charge, no matter what others say, the odds against you, and without regard to hardship, pain, or the punishment it brings.
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November 30th, 2006, 21:27
I hate thieves even more who get to know me before ripping me off. A random thief I can deal with, but someone who is supposedly a friend, someone whom I trust, I have nothing but utter contempt for.

I dont care about the boo hoo story, they can go to f%#&@ hell at that point.
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November 30th, 2006, 23:54
Originally Posted by roqua View Post
There are no uncontrollable behaviors, just people too weak to put in the work needed to control them.
We agree on this point. A strong person will probably react to evidence of an uncontrolled behaviour by bringing it under control. A weak person probably will not. Presented with the appropriate stimulus, the right circumstance, a weak person may react by developing strength. As for the rest, I defer to your wisdom.
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December 1st, 2006, 04:37
Originally Posted by abbaon View Post
We agree on this point. A strong person will probably react to evidence of an uncontrolled behaviour by bringing it under control. A weak person probably will not. Presented with the appropriate stimulus, the right circumstance, a weak person may react by developing strength. As for the rest, I defer to your wisdom.
I have no wisdom, just the internet, a keyboard. and spare time.
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