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RPGWatch Forums » Games » The Witcher Games » The Witcher » Sex card criticism

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March 13th, 2009, 01:57
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Then I would have to question how many games you've actually played.
Let me rephrase: It's one of the most immature games that desperately wants to be mature.
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March 13th, 2009, 02:03
Originally Posted by Damian Mahadevan View Post
I should have left the sex cards out of the discussion completely. Lets just say i dont believe that siding with the girls should always give you the best ending. It makes your choices one dimensional.
I must insist that you don't seem to be rewarded for getting the cards. If anything, you end up spending money on the crap that gets them in bed. I'm pretty positive that it's the same case with Shani and Triss. You don't get any experience points that I'm aware of…
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March 13th, 2009, 02:56
Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
I must insist that you don't seem to be rewarded for getting the cards. If anything, you end up spending money on the crap that gets them in bed. I'm pretty positive that it's the same case with Shani and Triss. You don't get any experience points that I'm aware of…
OK. But you do get a good ending to the little stories if you side with the girls and not sleep with them.
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March 13th, 2009, 04:13
Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
Let me rephrase: It's one of the most immature games that desperately wants to be mature.

Just curious, what other games are you comparing it to? I've played almost every major crpg released in the last 15 years, and I can't think of many that are more serious in nature than The Witcher.

I think the sex cards inject an element of comic relief into the game. But how much time is spent seeing them, compared to the rest of the game? I'd say less than 1% of the total game. You're allowing 1 small aspect to influence your overall opinion of the game.
Last edited by JDR13; March 13th, 2009 at 04:28.
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March 13th, 2009, 05:59
I thought they were kinda fun, nice to play something that wasnt so sanitized. Be a guy, be a jerk, be a lecher. Knock back a Tawny Owl or two and be the Gigilo of Rivia, treat em like the bad little wenches they truly are. Carve another notch in your Rivian Totem of Lust.

Had a running compilation on my desktop as I went, was kinda fun part of the game.
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March 13th, 2009, 06:26
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Just curious, what other games are you comparing it to? I've played almost every major crpg released in the last 15 years, and I can't think of many that are more serious in nature than The Witcher.

I think the sex cards inject an element of comic relief into the game. But how much time is spent seeing them, compared to the rest of the game? I'd say less than 1% of the total game. You're allowing 1 small aspect to influence your overall opinion of the game.
It's not just the sex cards, it's that most of the issues that The Witcher tries to raise or explore are already blatantly obvious or cliched. The whole racism dealt with in the game seems to be summed up with "Sometimes, people that are different don't like each other." As well as the whole first chapter with the not so surprising "OMG these seemingly normal folks are all hypocrites!" Even the whole question of whether Geralt should be helping humans and whether he really is human seems so hamfisted. Again, I blame much of this on the translations for NA. I suppose it really is a matter of opinion. I played through it halfway once, then restarted and played through fully. I enjoyed parts of it, but I wasn't moved.

As far as comparisons go I would probably compare The Witcher's philosophical portion to PS:T. That game truly moved me. The writing and ideas running through it will likely never be repeated in a CRPG. Just as one example of the sheer genius of that game is Fall from grace: Her beauty and charm stand in stark contrast with the fact that any sort of relationship beyond friendship would end in eternal damnation, not only that, but she apparently has no problem with being chaste. It's a nice tease to all the players, as if the writers are saying "nope, not in this game." The whole exploration of a succubus being "pure" is really novel.

Another good comparison would be with Deus Ex. Really great political and even ethical ideas floating around in that game.
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March 13th, 2009, 07:27
You're kind of proving my point though, PS:T and Deus Ex are two of the most "serious" games anyone could ever play, although PS:T had its goofy moments as well. It says something that you would choose to use those 2 games for comparisons.

I like PS:T a lot, but the combat, which I really enjoyed in the other Infinity Engine games, bored me to tears. Also, none of the choices made during the course of PS:T, other than the very last one, actually affected the outcome of the game. It's a great game if the only thing you care about is the story.


While I appreciate a great story in an RPG, atmosphere and gameplay are just as important to me. That's where The Witcher excels imo. I would almost liken my current experience with The Witcher to the first time I played Gothic, and that speaks volumes.
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March 13th, 2009, 09:19
By the way just to point out something. Imo one of the central themes in witcher is love (and lust) and how it affects people and the society. Many questlines are even centred around this subject.
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March 13th, 2009, 11:01
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
You're kind of proving my point though, PS:T and Deus Ex are two of the most "serious" games anyone could ever play, although PS:T had its goofy moments as well. It says something that you would choose to use those 2 games for comparisons.

I like PS:T a lot, but the combat, which I really enjoyed in the other Infinity Engine games, bored me to tears. Also, none of the choices made during the course of PS:T, other than the very last one, actually affected the outcome of the game. It's a great game if the only thing you care about is the story.


While I appreciate a great story in an RPG, atmosphere and gameplay are just as important to me. That's where The Witcher excels imo. I would almost liken my current experience with The Witcher to the first time I played Gothic, and that speaks volumes.
Okay, who are you, and what did you do to the real JDR13? Not only are you making intelligent points, but I agree with everything you say here. Can't have that, can we?
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March 13th, 2009, 18:30
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
You're kind of proving my point though, PS:T and Deus Ex are two of the most "serious" games anyone could ever play, although PS:T had its goofy moments as well. It says something that you would choose to use those 2 games for comparisons.

I like PS:T a lot, but the combat, which I really enjoyed in the other Infinity Engine games, bored me to tears. Also, none of the choices made during the course of PS:T, other than the very last one, actually affected the outcome of the game. It's a great game if the only thing you care about is the story.


While I appreciate a great story in an RPG, atmosphere and gameplay are just as important to me. That's where The Witcher excels imo. I would almost liken my current experience with The Witcher to the first time I played Gothic, and that speaks volumes.
Oh, I liked the atmosphere of The Witcher just fine. I thought the swamp and most of the interiors looked amazing, not only graphic wise, but in their details and art. It was fun to see all the ducks and cats and such wander around. The combat, however I never got into. All in all, in my opinion the gameplay wasn't that great, but wasn't bad as well. I had fun, but I don't think this is a game I'll ever play again, which is a shame.

But as far as the comparisons to PS:T and Deus Ex, I was really comparing them to The Witcher's story elements and maturity. Sure, every game has some goofy moments, but for me The Witcher was just one big joke that wasn't meant as such. I could never take it seriously.
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March 13th, 2009, 19:24
Funny, I got very much the impression that it *was* meant as such. My experience was that it was chock-full of highly intelligent dark humor — ironic little (and sometimes big) jabs at the stuff that's making talking heads go red around the ears every day in the media. It's not a serious game by any means, but it is, IMO, a mature one — in the good sense of the word. And that's where some details, like the sex cards and the mount-me babydoll nighties, jarred a little.
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March 13th, 2009, 19:29
Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
But as far as the comparisons to PS:T and Deus Ex, I was really comparing them to The Witcher's story elements and maturity. Sure, every game has some goofy moments, but for me The Witcher was just one big joke that wasn't meant as such. I could never take it seriously.
Perhaps, life is a big joke and isn't meant that seriously?

Honestly. A chaste succubus is a big revelation, whereas a nuanced dealing with opposing factions is immature? The first example might be philosophical, but it's not really that deep. And the "Sometimes, people that are different don't like each other" is meant as a joke, right? The point is that you have to decide between two factions that are assholes and nice people at the same time, and I get the feeling that this realistic vibe doesn't engage you, which is okay. It's hard to play a shining hero in that game, because it doesn't really let you do that.

The game might be a bit overloaded with symbols like the Teutonic Knights and a ghetto, but it's from Poland after all, so I don't hold it against it.
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March 13th, 2009, 23:54
I'm not very clear at all I see. Let me attempt to explain my problems with The Witcher a little better: It's dealing with serious issues, but the implementation of those issues are, in my opinion, immature and ill written. I guess that's my main complaint, the writing. I just wasn't impressed by the dialogue and a lot of the back story and I found myself rushing through it towards the end. I've said this before, but I'll say it again: I suspect a major part of this problem is from the translation.

So all in all I guess I'm just a bit confused by just what The Witcher wants to be. I played through half way then stopped since I couldn't tell what the hell was going on and what the game was trying to convey story wise. I thought the gameplay was ok and since I payed some $50 for it, I figured I'd give it another go around, but this time I more or less didn't try to make sense of it. In other words, when I stopped taking the game seriously and ignored most of the awkward babble, I was able to at least make it to the end.
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March 14th, 2009, 09:17
I actually found the dialogue very good. I don't understand what the people who criticize it, are actually on about. Please give an example of where the dialogue was a problem?

An example for me, would be Geralt and Yeavinn's conversation in the swamp, regarding Yeavinn's bitterness against humans. I see true bitterness there, -nothing funny or jokesey.

Then also Geralt's having to make a romantic decision regarding either Triss or Shani - the decision is to whether a Witcher has any right at all to become involved in a serious relationship, since he can never father any children (something most women want), and since he has a dangerous job that keeps him away from home all the time, and since Witchers, as mutants, are social phariahs, which could negatively rub off on his romantic/marriage partner, and since Witchers were exlusively meant to kill monsters and not actually also have a life of their own.
So you think that exploring how Geralt might be feeling about all of this is a joke, and "funny"?

Then, of course, as someone had already pointed out, the issue of the GM and his ideals for humanity and his attempts and experiments with genetic engineering, and his attempted genocide, does smack of Nazism. I guess that is a huge joke too.
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March 14th, 2009, 09:44
As always these discussions are always funny, its ok to be moraly corrupt in a game, we scream murder when you can't be a thief, we wreck havok when we can't decapitate.

I guess the only fault with these cards is that there isn't a female line with male cards.
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March 14th, 2009, 10:04
Well said, mute. At a ceratin website i sometimes frequent, the guys were going ballistic because Fallout 3 wouldn't allow you to kill children in the game.

Someone wrote a mod to enable you to kill kiddies, and of course a link was posted to a youtube video where a gamer was burning little kiddies and blowing them to pieces with great glee.

I must say, I sometimes feel a bit out of place in the gaming community…

Also, the poster that I was originally replying to re the Witcher criticism, seems to be criticising the fact that the game gives you a "good feeling" when you rescue damsels from being gang raped and attacked. (Your saving Vesna, Shani and the prostitutes, I would presume he is going on about.) Strange that he doesn't also complain about your getting to save Alvin….

I don't know if he is implying that the game should applaud non-aggresive women being gang raped, hurt and killed.
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March 14th, 2009, 16:50
Rivian, I think one of the dialog problems could have come from the first American'ized version. It got chopped up pretty bad, I'm afraid. That's a big reason why I hunted down the Polish version with English subtitles. (It wasn't for the nudity! Iswear! I only wanted to read the articles… I mean the plot!)

I didn't like the cards all that much. Talk about objectification… jeez. But, as others have said, it's easily skipped. On the other hand, the choices you have to make between the two leading women are great stuff. The choices had serious ramifications and came in the middle of the game instead of popping up at the last minute. Best of all, I found myself thinking about which choice would be best for me, the girls, and Alvin instead of thinking about which girl would best compliment my fighting style in battle. Does it get any more RPG than that??
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March 14th, 2009, 19:27
I feel that with or without the cards the game is great. I don't have nor do I need them to enjoy it. It does say something about a story line when it can produce such a wide range of emotions and comments in people. It managed to tap into our baser emotions and triger our personal judgements and feelings without making a real statement on them.

The decisions and level we let our true feelings play into the game was up to each player. Interesting that those of us who played it months ago can still tap into them in a simple discussion on the web.

Bart and Corwin should just admit that when it gets down to it, I will have the final say.
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March 14th, 2009, 20:57
The cards is a tiny detail of the game and the little scenery actions or talks to get them are a part of the machism tendency of the hero. Ha yes, this hero isn't the ideal husband for your daughter.
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March 19th, 2009, 17:45
Thoth, but you know The Witcher is actually a parody of fantasy (as were books) so it has to have some not so serious moments.
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