|
Your continuous donations keep RPGWatch running!
RPGWatch Forums » General Forums » Politics & Religion » Israeli troops admit murder and pillaging in Gaza

Default Israeli troops admit murder and pillaging in Gaza

March 20th, 2009, 14:56
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7952603.stm

An Israeli military college has printed damning soldiers' accounts of the killing of civilians and vandalism during recent operations in Gaza.

One account tells of a sniper killing a mother and children at close range whom troops had told to leave their home.

Another speaker at the seminar described what he saw as the "cold blooded murder" of a Palestinian woman.
Sadly, I found a three paragraph summary buried in one of the free rags here in NYC and that's it. Yet when the Palestinians send some rockets in, it's on the front page of the NY Times.

————————————————-

"Ya'll can go to HELL! I'm-a-goin' to TEXAS!"

- Davy Crockett
blatantninja is offline

blatantninja

blatantninja's Avatar
Resident Redneck Facist

#1

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NYC
Posts: 4,019

Default 

March 20th, 2009, 15:02
Are you surprised?
Kostas is offline

Kostas

Kostas's Avatar
Dormant Watcher

#2

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Dear Green Place
Posts: 1,624

Default 

March 20th, 2009, 15:12
Well, I'm shocked. This particular quote stood out for me:

Defence Minister Ehud Barak told Israel Radio that the findings would be examined seriously.

"I still say we have the most moral army in the world. Of course there may be exceptions but I have absolutely no doubt this will be inspected on a case-by-case basis," he said.
I have no doubt he believes that and could make a case for it. And I wonder if that describes part of a solution or a problem. Maybe war should remain clearly loathsome and disgusting. That way we could always say with certainty that it was wrong.

No wonder everyone points fingers over there. There are things even worse than this that sometimes happen too and should also be worth considering. But those kinds of considerations are easily and frequently misconstrued and only exacerbate the hatred and maybe even the problem.

What a mess.

Oh, I wish I had a river I could skate away on. But it don't snow here. It stays pretty green. I'm going to make a lot of money, then I'm going to quit this crazy scene. — [Joni Mitchell]
Squeek is offline

Squeek

Squeek's Avatar
connoisseur of tidbits

#3

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Orange County, California
Posts: 1,807

Default 

March 20th, 2009, 15:16
Surprised it happened? No. Surprised that the Israeli military college published it? Yes. Surprised the US media ignored it? No. Disgusted? Yes.

————————————————-

"Ya'll can go to HELL! I'm-a-goin' to TEXAS!"

- Davy Crockett
blatantninja is offline

blatantninja

blatantninja's Avatar
Resident Redneck Facist

#4

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NYC
Posts: 4,019

Default 

March 20th, 2009, 15:29
This was already discussed (a bit) on the M-E thread. Still, perhaps it does deserve a thread of its own. We'll see what happens; my guess is that the story will quietly die down, and in a month or two the IDF will announce that it has reprimanded a couple of sergeants. Or perhaps they'll jail the whistleblowers. That's how this stuff usually goes.
Prime Junta is offline

Prime Junta

RPGCodex' Little BRO

#5

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 8,540

Default 

March 20th, 2009, 15:33
Originally Posted by blatantninja View Post
Surprised it happened? No. Surprised that the Israeli military college published it? Yes. Surprised the US media ignored it? No. Disgusted? Yes.
This pretty much covers everything I wanted to say.
Kostas is offline

Kostas

Kostas's Avatar
Dormant Watcher

#6

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Dear Green Place
Posts: 1,624

Default 

March 20th, 2009, 15:36
The New York Times(at least online) has a similar article, bn.
Soldier's Accounts of Gaza Killings Raise Furor in Israel
It's strange that this is in the press at all from Israel's point of view. It's an ugly story,perhaps even uglier than it seemed at the time, which was plenty nasty even at face value.
Amir Marmor, a 33-year-old history graduate student in Jerusalem and a military reservist, said in an interview with The New York Times that he was stunned to discover the way civilian casualties were discussed in training discussions before his tank unit entered Gaza in January. "Shoot and don’t worry about the consequences,” was the message from the top commanders, he said….

Where there's smoke, there's mirrors.
magerette is offline

magerette

magerette's Avatar
Hedgewitch
RPGWatch Team

#7

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,929

Default 

March 20th, 2009, 15:46
Thanks mag, didn't see it in the print edition (granted I didn't dig through it either)

————————————————-

"Ya'll can go to HELL! I'm-a-goin' to TEXAS!"

- Davy Crockett
blatantninja is offline

blatantninja

blatantninja's Avatar
Resident Redneck Facist

#8

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NYC
Posts: 4,019

Default 

March 20th, 2009, 15:53
Hey, NYT's a huge paper. I'd like to see the story get on broadcast news tonight, but I agree with you that it will probably not get that much exposure.

Where there's smoke, there's mirrors.
magerette is offline

magerette

magerette's Avatar
Hedgewitch
RPGWatch Team

#9

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,929

Default 

March 20th, 2009, 15:58
Originally Posted by blatantninja View Post
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7952603.stm



Sadly, I found a three paragraph summary buried in one of the free rags here in NYC and that's it. Yet when the Palestinians send some rockets in, it's on the front page of the NY Times.
I agree that this thing is really bad, but I completely disagree with your comment!

Palestinians are shooting rockets at Israel everyday, show me how it's on the front page of NYT !
You might be disgusted by something but making it into something it isn't is as wrong !
Pladio is offline

Pladio

Pladio's Avatar
Guardian of Nonsense
RPGWatch Donor

#10

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London, uk
Posts: 3,024
Send a message via MSN to Pladio

Default 

March 20th, 2009, 16:19
Defence Minister Ehud Barak told Israel Radio that the findings would be examined seriously.

"I still say we have the most moral army in the world. Of course there may be exceptions but I have absolutely no doubt this will be inspected on a case-by-case basis," he said
Now if they only had the same measured response to terrorism I'm sure there could be some progress.
hishadow is offline

hishadow

Level N+1

#11

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Southern parts of Norway
Posts: 1,140

Default 

March 20th, 2009, 16:20
I regularly see reports of rockets being launched into Israel on:

NY Times front page (not lead story, but front page blurb)
WSJ (same as NY Times)
On the international section of our local news in the morning
On the international news brief section of the Today show

————————————————-

"Ya'll can go to HELL! I'm-a-goin' to TEXAS!"

- Davy Crockett
blatantninja is offline

blatantninja

blatantninja's Avatar
Resident Redneck Facist

#12

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NYC
Posts: 4,019

Default 

March 20th, 2009, 16:54
Pladio we may not get news of rockets daily, but you can bet we get it whenever there are civilian casualties. Most news coverage of Israel is extremely positive here. Both our new president and our new secretary of state have endorsed Israel's "right to defend itself" against rocket attacks very publicly. As bn, points out, this story about anecdotal evidence from actual soldiers involved in the fighting is far less prominent, and most people here will have very little exposure to it.

And not to sound like dte or anything, but "can you imagine" what kind of world press this would be getting if this came from US soldiers concerning fighting in Baghdad? Hopefully, your leaders won't channel George Bush too much or you'll start to see far more of this kind of reporting.

Where there's smoke, there's mirrors.
magerette is offline

magerette

magerette's Avatar
Hedgewitch
RPGWatch Team

#13

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,929

Default 

March 20th, 2009, 17:05
There's no room for even a somewhat neutral approach to Israel in the US public sphere, Pladio. If you don't absolutely support Israel (more specifically Israeli hardliners) in every action it undertakes you are instantly an anti-Semite. Hell, Obama's nominee to head the National Intelligence Council was shot down largely for stating "The brutal oppression of the Palestinians by Israeli occupation shows no signs of ending". Bush absolutely refused to do things that would have played a large role in the current crisis. For instance, Syria was open to negotiations with Israel if the U.S. agreed to participate (we refused).

Even if you bring up factual information such as the continued expansion of illegal settlements in the West Bank, radicalization of Israeli youth, second-class citizen status of the Arab Israelis, etc you risk being shouted down. I know the State Department has traditionally favored the Arab side of things (State opposed the creation of modern-day Israel) but politically elected officials and major appointees have no choice but to give Israel a blank check in almost everything it does.
Rithrandil is offline

Rithrandil

I bent my wookie

#14

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: VA
Posts: 2,299

Default 

March 20th, 2009, 17:19
Originally Posted by Rithrandil View Post
There's no room for even a somewhat neutral approach to Israel in the US public sphere, Pladio. If you don't absolutely support Israel (more specifically Israeli hardliners) in every action it undertakes you are instantly an anti-Semite.
In fact your example is wrong. Any reasonable assessment would conclude otherwise. Your assertion is a clear example of the real problem, however (though it's on the flip-side of the issue).

Oh, I wish I had a river I could skate away on. But it don't snow here. It stays pretty green. I'm going to make a lot of money, then I'm going to quit this crazy scene. — [Joni Mitchell]
Squeek is offline

Squeek

Squeek's Avatar
connoisseur of tidbits

#15

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Orange County, California
Posts: 1,807

Default 

March 20th, 2009, 17:36
Originally Posted by Squeek View Post
In fact your example is wrong. Any reasonable assessment would conclude otherwise. Your assertion is a clear example of the real problem, however (though it's on the flip-side of the issue).
Really? Name a major elected official or political appointee who actively speaks out when Israel steps out of line. And I'm not favoring one side over the other.
Rithrandil is offline

Rithrandil

I bent my wookie

#16

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: VA
Posts: 2,299

Default 

March 20th, 2009, 17:39
Nonsense. You prove your point, not the other way around. Our country's commitment to Israel puts us in a tough position, but yours is just all-or-nothing thinking.

Oh, I wish I had a river I could skate away on. But it don't snow here. It stays pretty green. I'm going to make a lot of money, then I'm going to quit this crazy scene. — [Joni Mitchell]
Squeek is offline

Squeek

Squeek's Avatar
connoisseur of tidbits

#17

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Orange County, California
Posts: 1,807

Default 

March 20th, 2009, 17:50
I did, but you already proved it for me. A major foreign policy nomination was shot down specifically because he was critical of Israel's policies in Palestine. Everything I said is an objective fact. Do I think Hamas is a wonderful organization? No. Do I support suicide bombings? No. Did I say Israel can't defend itself against rocket attacks? No. Did I say that we should cut off all military and economic assistance to Israel? No.

I want the U.S. to put pressure on Israel to find a solution to this problem, because this problem taints every American action (and to a lesser extent, European/other Western cultures) in the Middle East and in the greater Muslim world. We can't even give out free polio vaccines in many Muslim countries because they hate us SO MUCH that they believe these vaccines are designed to make them sterile or to give them AIDS.

There is a clear body of literature and examples on how to fight this sort of war (specifically look at Malaya) and a clear body of examples on how NOT to fight this type of war (Aden, Vietnam, Iraq for the most part, most of Israel's military history). There are even reports from Israeli government officials involved in the "peace process" that even point out the fact that Israel has no motivation to even attempt an actual solution. I'm just pointing out that criticism of Israel's methodology is not tolerated in elected/appointed officials in the US.

Even other western countries think Israel steps way too far out of line and uses excessive force. Their war against Hezbollah only fueled the fire and signed up more recruits for the enemy. Purposefully taking out civilian infrastructure? That's a great way to win the hearts and minds.

I'm against Israel's strategy, not their stated goal ("stop bombing us"), but the Palestinians definitely do not have their side of the argument listened to in the States.
Rithrandil is offline

Rithrandil

I bent my wookie

#18

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: VA
Posts: 2,299

Default 

March 20th, 2009, 17:52
Originally Posted by blatantninja View Post
I regularly see reports of rockets being launched into Israel on:

NY Times front page (not lead story, but front page blurb)
WSJ (same as NY Times)
On the international section of our local news in the morning
On the international news brief section of the Today show
Even with no casualties ? (also as has been stated many times, Hamas targets civilians, not militants, so when Israel kills a few militants you won't see it as easily on the front page of a mjor newspaper since they're militants in most of the Western World, as in considered terrorists and as such, Israel has the right to kill them. If Israel was targeting schools with tens or hundreds of children you would very well see it on the NYT)
Pladio is offline

Pladio

Pladio's Avatar
Guardian of Nonsense
RPGWatch Donor

#19

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London, uk
Posts: 3,024
Send a message via MSN to Pladio

Default 

March 20th, 2009, 17:54
Originally Posted by magerette View Post
Pladio we may not get news of rockets daily, but you can bet we get it whenever there are civilian casualties. Most news coverage of Israel is extremely positive here. Both our new president and our new secretary of state have endorsed Israel's "right to defend itself" against rocket attacks very publicly. As bn, points out, this story about anecdotal evidence from actual soldiers involved in the fighting is far less prominent, and most people here will have very little exposure to it.
Wasn't it you who even posted the article of NYT ? How is that less prominent ?

And not to sound like dte or anything, but "can you imagine" what kind of world press this would be getting if this came from US soldiers concerning fighting in Baghdad? Hopefully, your leaders won't channel George Bush too much or you'll start to see far more of this kind of reporting.
I'm not sure what you meant by this.
Pladio is offline

Pladio

Pladio's Avatar
Guardian of Nonsense
RPGWatch Donor

#20

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London, uk
Posts: 3,024
Send a message via MSN to Pladio
RPGWatch Forums » General Forums » Politics & Religion » Israeli troops admit murder and pillaging in Gaza
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT +2. The time now is 18:01.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright by RPGWatch