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Default Israeli troops admit murder and pillaging in Gaza

March 20th, 2009, 17:57
[QUOTE=Rithrandil;1060939474]There's no room for even a somewhat neutral approach to Israel in the US public sphere, Pladio. If you don't absolutely support Israel (more specifically Israeli hardliners) in every action it undertakes you are instantly an anti-Semite. Hell, Obama's nominee to head the National Intelligence Council was shot down largely for stating "The brutal oppression of the Palestinians by Israeli occupation shows no signs of ending". Bush absolutely refused to do things that would have played a large role in the current crisis. For instance, Syria was open to negotiations with Israel if the U.S. agreed to participate (we refused). [quote]

Even if true, it wouldn't make sense as Israel wanted peace with Syria… So your example has nothing to do with it.

Even if you bring up factual information such as the continued expansion of illegal settlements in the West Bank, radicalization of Israeli youth, second-class citizen status of the Arab Israelis, etc you risk being shouted down. I know the State Department has traditionally favored the Arab side of things (State opposed the creation of modern-day Israel) but politically elected officials and major appointees have no choice but to give Israel a blank check in almost everything it does.
That's not true, if they wanted to, and I'm talking about really wanted to, they could easily drop Israel. The US supports Israel because it's in the US's best interest, not because they are getting influenced by some politically correct nonsense.
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March 20th, 2009, 17:58
Originally Posted by Rithrandil View Post
Really? Name a major elected official or political appointee who actively speaks out when Israel steps out of line. And I'm not favoring one side over the other.
Again, if they really wanted to, I'm sure they would. They would find lots of support amongst the populace as well, I'm sure of that.
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March 20th, 2009, 18:03
Originally Posted by Rithrandil View Post
I did, but you already proved it for me..
Not only that, I also bought your beach-front condo on the moon. You can assert anything you want, I suppose (and isn't that convenient?).

There may be some real value in exaggerating some of the facts surrounding this issue in order to make a point about the need for change. But I see greater value in keeping the facts straight. Your approach only exacerbates a problem that's tough enough already.

And there's no need. This situation is outrageous and needs no exaggeration. Passions are high enough already and don't need to inflamed further. Calmer, clearer minds should take charge on both sides of the issue.

Bob Dylan once suggested that "The times they are a changing." And his advice to folks like you was to get out of the way if you can't lend a hand.

Oh, I wish I had a river I could skate away on. But it don't snow here. It stays pretty green. I'm going to make a lot of money, then I'm going to quit this crazy scene. — [Joni Mitchell]
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March 20th, 2009, 18:08
Originally Posted by Squeek View Post
Not only that, I also bought your beach-front condo on the moon. You can assert anything you want, I suppose (and isn't that convenient?).

There may be some real value in exaggerating some of the facts surrounding this issue in order to make a point about the need for change. But I see greater value in keeping the facts straight. Your approach only exacerbates a problem that's tough enough already.

And there's no need. This situation is outrageous and needs no exaggeration. Passions are high enough already and don't need to enflamed further. Calmer, clearer minds should take charge on both sides of the issue.

Bob Dylan once suggested that "The times they are a changing." And his advice to folks like you was to get out of the way if you can't lend a hand.
Whatever. None of what I said was an exaggeration, it's in the public record as well as in multiple UN reports, accounts from Israeli soldiers, etc. How am I inflaming a the situation? All I said was that the policy of the U.S. government is blanket support of Israel and it's a pretty well-known fact throughout the world, and you immediately act as if I said we should sign up with Hamas and Iran and push the Jews back into the sea.

Edit:

1) Article about the Polio cases - http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007…an.topstories3
2) Amnesty International attacking Israel on war crimes - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4580139.stm
3) Dr. Falk, UN Special Rapporteur on Palestine Human Rights - http://mondediplo.com/2009/03/03warcrimes
4) Salon article about political leaders from both parties agreeing w/ Israel's offensive http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwa…acy/index.html

Sorry, I'm not some crazy-ass conspiracy nut and I'd appreciate it if you didn't treat me like one. My point is that *the American Government unquestioningly supports Israel* and that the Israeli strategy does not work and needs to be changed. Gaza is a giant open-aired prison and they obviously haven't won the hearts and minds of the people by doing what they are doing.
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March 20th, 2009, 18:12
Fortunately for us, this conversation is in writing. I referred to what I quoted, and it was this:
Originally Posted by Rithrandil View Post
There's no room for even a somewhat neutral approach to Israel in the US public sphere, Pladio. If you don't absolutely support Israel (more specifically Israeli hardliners) in every action it undertakes you are instantly an anti-Semite.
Keep up with this part of the conversation or don't — that's up to you.

Oh, I wish I had a river I could skate away on. But it don't snow here. It stays pretty green. I'm going to make a lot of money, then I'm going to quit this crazy scene. — [Joni Mitchell]
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March 20th, 2009, 18:12
Originally Posted by Pladio View Post
Even with no casualties ?
Sometimes. They certainly give more prominence with casualties, but you hear a lot about a bomb going off but no one being hurt.


(also as has been stated many times, Hamas targets civilians, not militants,
Well to be fair, Hamas targets both. Their rocket attacks are more random in where they fall and generally hit civilian areas, but they regularly attack Israeli soldiers as well (not that often successfully).

so when Israel kills a few militants you won't see it as easily on the front page of a mjor newspaper since they're militants in most of the Western World, as in considered terrorists and as such, Israel has the right to kill them. If Israel was targeting schools with tens or hundreds of children you would very well see it on the NYT)
Well, that is the issue here. I don't expect front page news when Israel kills a Hamas fighter. However, when their soldiers target civilians, as they clearly did in these reports, that should be front page news. And Israel blew the ever living hell out of a school during the Gaza insurrection. They killed a lot of children in the process. IIRC they originally said it was an errant strike, then claimed they were being fired upon from the location. To be fair, that was covered quite a bit in the news here.

From the article:

Medical authorities say more than 1,300 Palestinians were killed during Israel's 22-day operation, including some 440 children, 110 women, and dozens of elderly people.
That is a hell of a lot of 'collateral' damage for what is one of the most advanced militaries in the world. It's pretty obvious that a large chunk of these were deliberate attacks, which makes them no better than the people lobbing rockets into civilian Israeli populations.

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March 20th, 2009, 18:15
Originally Posted by Pladio View Post
Wasn't it you who even posted the article of NYT ? How is that less prominent ?
You obviously missed what I wrote:

Israeli civilians killed in rocket attacks = at least a small blurb on front page with larger article inside

Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli soldiers = not even a mention on the front page, small article buried inside of paper.

That's a difference.

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March 20th, 2009, 18:17
Originally Posted by Pladio View Post
That's not true, if they wanted to, and I'm talking about really wanted to, they could easily drop Israel. The US supports Israel because it's in the US's best interest, not because they are getting influenced by some politically correct nonsense.
I'm not agreeing with everything you quote, but if you think that AIPAC doesn't hold significant influence over a large number of prominent politicians, you have no clue about American politics.

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March 20th, 2009, 18:20
Originally Posted by Squeek View Post
Fortunately for us, this conversation is in writing. I referred to what I quoted, and it was this:Keep up with this part of the conversation or don't — that's up to you.
Fine, yes, the being labeled an anti-Semite bit was an exaggeration. But you'll definitely be shut out of the government if you express any disdain for Israeli tactics and strategy.
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March 20th, 2009, 18:39
Even if true, it wouldn't make sense as Israel wanted peace with Syria… So your example has nothing to do with it.

That's not true, if they wanted to, and I'm talking about really wanted to, they could easily drop Israel. The US supports Israel because it's in the US's best interest, not because they are getting influenced by some politically correct nonsense.
Actually it would be in our best interest to drop Israel like a bad habit (which is what the State Department said when Israel was created). The Arabs/Middle East loved us before we supported Israel. We've supported it because of religious convictions and political necessity.
Last edited by Rithrandil; March 20th, 2009 at 18:52.
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March 20th, 2009, 18:55
Originally Posted by Rithrandil View Post
But you'll definitely be shut out of the government if you express any disdain for Israeli tactics and strategy.
If you mean that literally, then I have to ask who does the shutting out and how? Closer to the truth is that American Jews are a very effective voting block and have been for a long time. Ironically, they cite sentiment like yours as their primary motivation.

Sweeping statements and all-or-nothing conclusions are fair enough on this political forum, I suppose. But it's also fair, I think, to call them what they are and that's part of the problem, not the solution.

I happen to also feel that Israel gets too much of a pass with us here in the US, and there are plenty of others who would agree. But that discussion is being repressed.

Each side embellishes, but like it or not Israel has credibility that its opponents don't enjoy, despite stories like the one referred to by the OP. If this country's opinion matters to them, then Israel's opponents and their sympathizers need to improve their credibility.

Oh, I wish I had a river I could skate away on. But it don't snow here. It stays pretty green. I'm going to make a lot of money, then I'm going to quit this crazy scene. — [Joni Mitchell]
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March 20th, 2009, 18:59
Originally Posted by Squeek View Post
If you mean that literally, then I have to ask who does the shutting out and how? Closer to the truth is that American Jews are a very effective voting block and have been for a long time. Ironically, their primary motivation is the presence of sentiment like yours.

Sweeping statements and all-or-nothing conclusions are fair enough on this political forum, I suppose. But it's also fair, I think, to call them what they are and that's part of the problem, not the solution.

I happen to also feel that Israel gets too much of a pass with us here in the US, and there are plenty of others who would agree. But that discussion is being repressed.

Each side embellishes, but like it or not Israel has credibility that its opponents don't enjoy, despite stories like the one referred to by the OP. If this country's opinion matters to them, then Israel's opponents and their sympathizers need to improve their credibility.
AIPAC and Evangelicals do a pretty good job of it. And yes, my all-or-nothing conclusion of "Israel needs to moderate its tactics/strategy" and stating things that are held as fact throughout the world and by a good deal of Americans. Are you saying I hate Jews or am anti-Israel? I'm just curious, since you seem to know my exact political sentiment. I haven't posted my views on what the Palestinians/Hamas/etc are doing wrong because it wasn't the topic of this conversation.
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March 20th, 2009, 19:01
I referred to what I quoted and said what I said.

Oh, I wish I had a river I could skate away on. But it don't snow here. It stays pretty green. I'm going to make a lot of money, then I'm going to quit this crazy scene. — [Joni Mitchell]
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March 20th, 2009, 19:02
Nice dodge there, chief. Fine, are you IMPLYING it then?
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March 20th, 2009, 19:06
If clarity is a dodge, them I'm guilty. Assert anything you like, but I mean what I've said, and that's a good place to begin if you want to figure out what I'm thinking.

Oh, I wish I had a river I could skate away on. But it don't snow here. It stays pretty green. I'm going to make a lot of money, then I'm going to quit this crazy scene. — [Joni Mitchell]
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March 20th, 2009, 19:15
Originally Posted by Squeek View Post
If clarity is a dodge, them I'm guilty. Assert anything you like, but I mean what I've said, and that's a good place to begin if you want to figure out what I'm thinking.
Alright, well, since I asked you a direct question that you won't answer and you're labeling me as some sort of crazy paranoid radical for stating Israel needs to moderate what it's doing, fine, I guess any sort of discussion/argument with you is completely meaningless.
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March 20th, 2009, 19:22
You don't do clarification, do you? I didn't refer to everything you said or anything other than what I quoted. That answered that.

I didn't refer to you personally or everything about you. That also answered that.

But if it must be all or nothing, then I'm not surprised at your choice of "all."

Oh, I wish I had a river I could skate away on. But it don't snow here. It stays pretty green. I'm going to make a lot of money, then I'm going to quit this crazy scene. — [Joni Mitchell]
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March 20th, 2009, 19:36
Originally Posted by Squeek View Post
You don't do clarification, do you? I didn't refer to everything you said or anything other than what I quoted. That answered that.

I didn't refer to you personally or everything about you. That also answered that.

But if it must be all or nothing, then I'm not surprised at your choice of "all."
You also referred to my sentiments being the reason why the Jewish lobby has such great support and accused me of not keeping facts straight (to which I posted some easy to find articles backing up points I made) so you obviously did refer to other things I said and to me personally. I asked you a legitimate question because I don't know you personally and wanted you to answer it, I didn't "assert" anything. I didn't want to assume what you actually think about me/my arguments, so I asked you a question so that you would clarify it so I wouldn't attack you for something you didn't mean or that I took out of context.

So I'm sorry if I somehow offended you because I don't like things that Israel does, despite the fact I do think Israel has a right to defend itself and I'm against organizations such as Hamas and Hezbollah. My "all or nothing" approach as you have deemed it.
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March 20th, 2009, 19:51
Originally Posted by Rithrandil View Post
I didn't want to assume what you actually think about me/my arguments, so I asked you a question so that you would clarify it so I wouldn't attack you for something you didn't mean or that I took out of context.
If you're asking me if I've said those things about you, then the answer is no (just check and see). If you want to know what I'm thinking, then my answer is that I'm comfortable with the thoughts I already expressed. As to your specific concerns about what I might be thinking, the ones that would be unfair or unreasonable, I can assure you I see no reason to conclude anything of the sort.

Look, if this conversation reached a point where you have no response to what's actually being said (or no desire to respond to it), then maybe it's simply reached an end. That's fine with me.

Oh, I wish I had a river I could skate away on. But it don't snow here. It stays pretty green. I'm going to make a lot of money, then I'm going to quit this crazy scene. — [Joni Mitchell]
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March 20th, 2009, 19:59
Originally Posted by Squeek View Post
If you're asking me if I've said those things about you, then the answer is no (just check and see). If you want to know what I'm thinking, then my answer is that I'm comfortable with the thoughts I already expressed. As to your specific concerns about what I might be thinking, the ones that would be unfair or unreasonable, I can assure you I see no reason to conclude anything of the sort.

Look, if this conversation reached a point where you have no response to what's actually being said (or no desire to respond to it), then maybe it's simply reached an end. That's fine with me.
Thank you for answering that and I apologize for derailing the thread onto this topic and for taking (some) offense at something you didn't mean/say/imply. No hard feelings on my end.
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