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Default Why respecting Christianity without friction is so dangerous

April 17th, 2009, 06:16
We who have good manners know to respect gender, sexuality, race, ethnicity etc and try to be respectful and do not blame or judge people for things they cannot change, but Christianity is not genetic, it's a belief system, an opinion, an ideology. Respecting a set of ideas without putting it to the same amount of questioning as we would to other ideologies have serious consequences. I found the following video a perfect example of why this is so. People do not keep their ideas personal, they vote on their own and they get all the way up to positions of power where they can do some serious harm.

Rep. John Shimkus: God decides when the "earth will end"
Rep. John Shimkus: Capping C02 emissions will steal "plant food"

Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind. - John F Kennedy
An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
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April 17th, 2009, 07:52
Why do you single out Christianity for your tirades? Why not attack Jews, Hindus, Moslems, etc as well? Or better, why not simply respect others beliefs, whether you agree with them or not, as I try to do!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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April 17th, 2009, 09:51
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
Why do you single out Christianity for your tirades? Why not attack Jews, Hindus, Moslems, etc as well? Or better, why not simply respect others beliefs, whether you agree with them or not, as I try to do!!
Simply because I lack reason to do so. Jews are a minority that keeps to themselves. Fundamentalists muslims aren't elected into power in western democracies. Christian fundamentalists are the only ones able to reach this far, except for nationalists but they are also generally treated with mistrust. Communists are halted early on in their career. Why don't i respect 'beliefs'? Because some beliefs are harmful. It make no sense to respect opinions just like that, our democracy depends on challenging opinions on their merits. Asking for automatic 'respect' is totalitarian and undemocratic.

Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind. - John F Kennedy
An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
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April 17th, 2009, 12:23
I think it's useful to distinguish between beliefs and actions.

Personally, I do my best to understand people and as such I find myself "respecting" pretty much any belief I've come across.

But actions are another matter entirely, and as soon as I detect harm to others - willfull or not - I start losing "respect".

There's no reason why you can't accept and "respect" beliefs, whilst condemning the actions those beliefs might result in.

I put the concept in quotation marks for a reason, and it's because I find the concept applied where it really shouldn't be. Respect is about having high regard, or to view something as beyond average. That's not at all what I'm talking about, so I should use another word really.

I think simple understanding or tolerance is more applicable - and as such I tolerate all beliefs, and I understand why they're held in those cases where I gather enough information to hold an informed opinion.

So, essentially, I don't really respect much in the ways of beliefs. I see no implicit merit in having them, and I find it exceedingly rare that those people who hold them have deserved anything approaching regard simply for having them.

It would be like respecting someone for being blonde instead of having dark hair. That makes no sense to me.
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April 17th, 2009, 12:40
I respect someone's faith-based beliefs until they start using them to try and effect change in the public sector - be it through politics or education/science classes. Once you cross that line from "I believe in the Bible" (I'm using Christianity here as it's the most prevalent in the states, but substitute Bible for any religious document/what have you) to "I believe in the Bible and thus my belief should be taught as equally valid with Evolution" or "I believe in the Bible and thus laws should reflect my belief" then religion becomes a completely valid target for criticism and attack. Additionally, not all belief systems are equally valid (although I personally don't care until it enters into my life somehow).

I personally have a lot of highly religious friends - I don't bother them about it as long as they don't bother me about being an atheist. But when one of them starts saying Intelligent Design should be taught in a classroom, then all bets are off. Religion is NOT some special belief category that should be immune from criticism or questioning. Once it's brought out in public to argue against/for something, it's a fair target - just like if I argue for the Iraq war and lower taxes, PJ and Magerette would be perfectly justified to attack or argue against any underlying assumption I have, especially if it was not backed by evidence/reason/what have you.

To be blunt, it's Religion that gets us to "Condoms are worse than AIDS" or "What's the difference between a pitbull and a hockey mom?". I know that does not represent everyone who is religious, but giving religion this tax-exempt criticism-free place in our society is a pretty bad idea.

EDIT: And I probably shouldn't use the word "Respect" - more like "tolerate". I don't have to RESPECT someone's belief, as DArtagnan explained quite well. I don't really have any high regard for faith-based evidence-lacking beliefs. I tolerate them or am ambivalent towards them. I don't have to respect someone's belief that they were kidnapped by aliens, but I'll tolerate it until they bring it into public life and try to pass laws pertaining to it.
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April 17th, 2009, 13:19
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
We who have good manners know to respect gender, sexuality, race, ethnicity etc and try to be respectful and do not blame or judge people for things they cannot change, but Christianity is not genetic, it's a belief system, an opinion, an ideology. Respecting a set of ideas without putting it to the same amount of questioning as we would to other ideologies have serious consequences. I found the following video a perfect example of why this is so. People do not keep their ideas personal, they vote on their own and they get all the way up to positions of power where they can do some serious harm.
Jemmy I don't know where you're from, but I assume it's America from the way you talk. Have you ever been to England? I find it is the exact opposite of America in terms of "wearing your religion on your shoulder." In America it's totally normal and encouraged, sometimes, to shout out your beliefs and be "damn proud of it", in England not so much. It's more a personal matter that doesn't involve the rest of the world.

So when you say "people" you mean Americans? When you say "elected into power in western democracies" you mean American Democracy? Yes?

If you're looking for good manners in religion head on over to England or for that matter Australia. I think that Corwin is a great example of how most normal Christians are. They aren't the boogyman for god's sake.

Still that being said I'm seeing a hopeful trend in America where the Christian Right is losing or has lost a lot of it's power or I should say are changing. People are waking up to the fact that abortion and gay marriage are not the only issues that Christians care about. If you want an example of this look at the states that are legalizing gay marriage. Eight years ago all of these states legalizing gay marriage would of been near impossible. I don't think that rep. John Shimkus is a good representation of the current political climate. You'll always have these characters in politics, it's just the way America works

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April 17th, 2009, 13:43
What Rithrandil said. I'd add that IMO one of the strongest arguments for a secular society is that it protects the rights of all religions equally. Within such a framework there's even room for things like religious arbitration courts — as long as acceptance of the jurisdiction of such a court is voluntary.
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April 17th, 2009, 15:12
Im from Sweden actually.

I see three layers that are more or less intertwined. First there's juridical laws and rights, then there are general code of conduct in culture and finally there is diplomacy.

When it comes to juridical laws and rights I am personally a "government, stay away" kind of person. It's not governments business to mess around with what we think or what we say. With one exception, that I will get back to later.

When it comes to culture though, in a democracy, values within the population tend to reach politics. Politicians are representitives of public opinion, that's just the way things are. We tend to demand a lot out of a politician, but if enough people support a position a politician that support that position will get elected and will pass legislations. Due to this, there's a value in questioning opinions early on, on a cultural level. Some ideologies have proved themselves tempting but wrong, which can be seen throughout history. Nationalism offers a great, tempting and romantic worldview and it's only thanks to education and a general cultural kneejerk reaction against nationalism that nationalism can be kept down.

Due to the relationship between antiintellectualism and disasters, there's a value in making sure that the intellectual level among voters is kept at a healthy level. It's far to easy to push an uncritical population the way you want to by making romantic promises and pushing the right (wrong?) emotions.

Before I move on, there's a value in simply being diplomatic and not start arguments, fights etc here and there. There is a difference between being active in a public debate and starting arguments with everybody and we generally avoid addressing odd opinions just to be nice.


Now the guy in the above video begins by addressing the value of free speech, then he quotes the Bible and add:

I believe that's the infallible word of God and that's the way it's gonna be for his creation.
Then he goes on speaking about angels and ensures everyone that mankind cannot destroy the earth because God will decide. Then he goes on:

But I do believe Gods words is infallible, unchanging, perfect.
Bottom line; no need to bother about the environment, Hebrew mythology say so.

Considering the warning signs, this ignorance is potentially dangerous.

Thing is… a guy doesn't get into that position unless a population put him there. And he do not seem to show any qualms for stating such opinions in public, it seems just natural and he's not joking. That means he expects to get respect for holding such opinions, including staying at his job.

When you have people in power that is that far out of reach, it's a safe sign that the culture that put him there is bankrupt.

Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind. - John F Kennedy
An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
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April 17th, 2009, 16:13
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
We who have good manners know to respect gender, sexuality, race, ethnicity etc and try to be respectful and do not blame or judge people for things they cannot change, but Christianity is not genetic, it's a belief system, an opinion, an ideology. Respecting a set of ideas without putting it to the same amount of questioning as we would to other ideologies have serious consequences. I found the following video a perfect example of why this is so. People do not keep their ideas personal, they vote on their own and they get all the way up to positions of power where they can do some serious harm.

Rep. John Shimkus: God decides when the "earth will end"
Rep. John Shimkus: Capping C02 emissions will steal "plant food"
This sounds like you're trying to justify your bitter hatred towards Christianity by using an argument that essentially boils down to "They're good for nothing." Fred Phelps uses God to justify his hatred towards gays.
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April 17th, 2009, 16:18
Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
This sounds like you're trying to justify your bitter hatred towards Christianity by using an argument that essentially boils down to "They're good for nothing." Fred Phelps uses God to justify his hatred towards gays.
I don't know, it sounds to me like he's pointing out that religion (specifically Christianity) is often given a 'free pass' in society and to question it is frowned upon or considered bad/rude. I can't question Sarah Palin's religious beliefs because it's her choice to believe that way? Sorry, but no - if you bring religion into the public circle it deserves the same amount of scrutiny and criticism as every other belief/ideology/what have you.
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April 17th, 2009, 16:48
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
Considering the warning signs, this ignorance is potentially dangerous.

Thing is… a guy doesn't get into that position unless a population put him there. And he do not seem to show any qualms for stating such opinions in public, it seems just natural and he's not joking. That means he expects to get respect for holding such opinions, including staying at his job.

When you have people in power that is that far out of reach, it's a safe sign that the culture that put him there is bankrupt.
Ignorance is always dangerous. As I've pointed out before in these arguments, Jemy, this is only one demographic in our population. Yes it did manage to come to power in the Bush administration by riding on the coat-tails of the Republican party, but in a way, regrettable as many of the things that occurred because of that were, it did more to open the eyes of the rest of the country than years of preaching or argument against it would have. We got to see just where that path leads, and now it's become pretty much a sidetrack to the political wilderness, and the party that gave it airspace is being dragged there along with it.

AFA this goofball and his compatriots like Michele Bachman getting respect—they get the respect of their constituents, but it's debatable whether the larger culture is anything but alienated by their rhetoric, and in many ways, they do more to de-authenticate Christianity than uphold it. I say let these lunatics run wild and spout their silliness at the top of their lungs, because as the old saying goes, a picture says a thousand words.

Where there's smoke, there's mirrors.
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April 17th, 2009, 16:53
Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
This sounds like you're trying to justify your bitter hatred towards Christianity by using an argument that essentially boils down to "They're good for nothing." Fred Phelps uses God to justify his hatred towards gays.
No. I am bothered with the frictionless response to opinions labeled "religious", even when the opinion is dangerous, harmful, intolerant or psychotic.

Im using psychotic as a clinical term. Last week youtube user Tony48219 shot himself after shooting a woman. Tony48219 had mental health issues, suffered from depressions and was even medicated for this, but his problem was covered up by the fact that he was a "Christian". His rampart homophobia, creationism etc was all simply "Christian beliefs", but anyone who could see through that shroud could see that he had severe problems.

Tony48219 is an extreme example, although unfortunately more common than is acceptable. Not many days ago a woman with a history of mental illness in Casselberry, Florida shot her son in the back after shooting herself. She had left notes explaining that she should send her son to heaven and herself to hell.

You replied "you're trying to justify your bitter hatred towards Christianity" without even addressing the video. This is an example how people treat things differently when religion is involved.

That's the problem I wanted to address with this post. People are so blinded with "respect", that they cannot pass proper judgment when it's required to stop harm from happening.
Treating opinions and certain behavior different because "hey, it's a religious person, we should respect his beliefs", lead to consequences.

Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind. - John F Kennedy
An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
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April 17th, 2009, 17:06
The religion I can't stand is "Shouldism." Its practitioners basically prattle on about what should or shouldn't be acceptable about other people. "There's something wrong with them, and here's an analysis of it!"

Nobody seems to have ever aspired to be a Shouldist. It's a religion they seem to end up in after too many things went wrong. If I were to be fair, then I suppose I should consider how they may really be the happiest, healthiest people on Earth. They seem to think so, after all.

Oh, I wish I had a river I could skate away on. But it don't snow here. It stays pretty green. I'm going to make a lot of money, then I'm going to quit this crazy scene. — [Joni Mitchell]
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April 17th, 2009, 17:20
Originally Posted by magerette View Post
this is only one demographic in our population
The hardcore religious, or those who hold a belief in belief? I see the second one to be far more numerous than the first one.

Originally Posted by magerette View Post
I say let these lunatics run wild and spout their silliness at the top of their lungs, because as the old saying goes, a picture says a thousand words.
Which is why I felt to post that video.

Seriously. In my home turf I see the rise of nationalism to be more dangerous than religious extremism. And I speak about "bad" nationalism, the one who want unity through heritage. I prefer "good" nationalism, with unity through living at the same geographical area. The difference to religious extremism is that nationalists are openly attacked from all directions because people are taught from childhood up what horrors nationalism might lead to and are not told to respect it.

We also have a second group that do not have enough friction over here and that's communism. Swedish culture is way to generous and open to communism, and that is a problem, because you do not want the public end up thinking that Socialism or religiously boosted National Socialism are your only choices.

However, there's another trend. Cultural nationalism and extreme religion is closely linked, and it seems that fundamentalist religion (that is far less mainstream in Europe) have found an ally in nationalism over here, and they are generally boosted by American groups.

I usually option to speak about religious extremism here since it's an international site and religious extremism is a cross-nation issue where as I doubt many here would understand the Swedish political landscape when it comes to communism and nationalism tend to be unique to every nation.

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An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
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April 17th, 2009, 17:20
Killer fact - the closest genetic relative of the Christian is, surprisingly, a crab.

Okay, maybe not exactly a fact but I still think it explains why they're all so shifty.
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April 17th, 2009, 17:21
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
No. I am bothered with the frictionless response to opinions labeled "religious", even when the opinion is dangerous, harmful, intolerant or psychotic.

Im using psychotic as a clinical term. Last week youtube user Tony48219 shot himself after shooting a woman. Tony48219 had mental health issues, suffered from depressions and was even medicated for this, but his problem was covered up by the fact that he was a "Christian". His rampart homophobia, creationism etc was all simply "Christian beliefs", but anyone who could see through that shroud could see that he had severe problems.

Tony48219 is an extreme example, although unfortunately more common than is acceptable. Not many days ago a woman with a history of mental illness in Casselberry, Florida shot her son in the back after shooting herself. She had left notes explaining that she should send her son to heaven and herself to hell.
Tony was nuts my boy. If we took away Tony's religion he'd still be nuts. No one respected him and besides, take a look at the drama on the tubes between TheAmazingAtheist, FakeSagan, and CapnOAwesome. Sure no one dies, but they're still a prime example that there's retardedness on all sides.

Many crazy people, or even just bigots, use all kinds of things to justify their actions, but if we were to break away they're justifications, they'd still be nuts or bigoted.

You replied "you're trying to justify your bitter hatred towards Christianity" without even addressing the video. This is an example how people treat things differently when religion is involved.

That's the problem I wanted to address with this post. People are so blinded with "respect", that they cannot pass proper judgment when it's required to stop harm from happening.
Politicians have been saying retarded things since there's been politicians. Truth be told, most people don't even understand who they're voting for when they go into the voting booth. They vote for the big guys, Senators and Governors, but when it comes to things like the reps, most just vote along party lines. It's a sad flaw in our country that we only have two parties and that people will blindly vote along said parties. This guy wouldn't be elected if his campaign platform was "God hates fags, LOL"

Treating opinions and certain behavior different because "hey, it's a religious person, we should respect his beliefs", lead to consequences.
Then rather then not showing respect, why not simply respectfully disagree and debate? There isn't any inquisition going on.
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April 17th, 2009, 17:22
Originally Posted by Benedict View Post
Killer fact - the closest genetic relative of the Christian is, surprisingly, a crab.

Okay, maybe not exactly a fact but I still think it explains why they're all so shifty.
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April 17th, 2009, 17:37
Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
Tony was nuts my boy. If we took away Tony's religion he'd still be nuts. No one respected him and besides, take a look at the drama on the tubes between TheAmazingAtheist, FakeSagan, and CapnOAwesome. Sure no one dies, but they're still a prime example that there's retardedness on all sides.
Agreed.
Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
Many crazy people, or even just bigots, use all kinds of things to justify their actions, but if we were to break away they're justifications, they'd still be nuts or bigoted.
Agreed.

Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
Politicians have been saying retarded things since there's been politicians. Truth be told, most people don't even understand who they're voting for when they go into the voting booth. They vote for the big guys, Senators and Governors, but when it comes to things like the reps, most just vote along party lines. It's a sad flaw in our country that we only have two parties and that people will blindly vote along said parties. This guy wouldn't be elected if his campaign platform was "God hates fags, LOL"
I dunno, Rick Santorum served two senate terms.

Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
Then rather then not showing respect, why not simply respectfully disagree and debate? There isn't any inquisition going on.
Not every idea is worthy of respect. Creationism and religion aren't on equal footing with science and rationality. It's not always worthwhile to engage in a debate - they've already lost and just ignore any evidence to the contrary.

I don't respect Mormonism and I don't respect Scientology. If a Scientologist wants to tell me about body thetans, I'm going to smile politely, nod, and slowly back away towards the nearest exit. I don't respect Communism or Fascism - but at least those have some quasi-rational ideas buried somewhere beneath their ideology. Why does Christianity deserve respect? Because it's popular? Just because 1.9 billion people follow something doesn't mean I have to respect their belief if it's not founded on evidence, logic, or reasoning.

Sorry, blind faith and ignorance is not to be respected - I'll tolerate it when it's not in the public sphere but if it wants to influence policy I'm going to be completely justified in attacking it.
Last edited by Rithrandil; April 17th, 2009 at 17:38. Reason: Typo
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April 17th, 2009, 17:39
I long for that day when Jemmy has finally on his knees to that alter before God holding himself and saying, "I'm sorry" and then all that bitterness starts being washed away while he accepts the forgiveness of Jesus.

"And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." -Acts 26:14

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April 17th, 2009, 17:46
Originally Posted by Rithrandil View Post
Just because 1.9 billion people follow something doesn't mean I have to respect their belief if it's not founded on evidence, logic, or reasoning.
Those 1.9 billion people are in turn divided between
1. People who are positive to Christianity because it's the dominant religion in their area and they grew up around it
2. People who like the social company
3. People who find it ok to believe in cosmic forces beyond our comprehension because there seems to be some good arguments for that point
4. People who are elected into power only to respond to serious issues by quoting from the bible in public and saying they believe that those lines are infallible

Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind. - John F Kennedy
An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
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