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Default Why respecting Christianity without friction is so dangerous

April 18th, 2009, 02:40
Originally Posted by Rithrandil View Post
And I think the Bible is honestly not that much better then Mein Kampf.
Oh come on, lets not Godwin this discussion too soon!

Any book which encourages/accepts about slavery,
The point about slavery is a point about humility and love. In other words, love even those that take away your freedom since infinite freedom awaits you in heaven. Or so some believe…

stoning women, stoning people for working on certain days of the week, doesn't seem to mind genocide,
The old testament is all about the stoning. From what we've read of Jesus' teachings, according to him, such things are a bit passe. "Resist not evil" for example. In other words, don't even strike at those that would commit evil against you yourself. I actually don't understand why so many people can use the new testament as a justification for violence since it is riddled with non-violent messages.

etc is a pretty bad place to draw moral inspiration from. It doesn't matter how evil you are, accept Jesus into your heart and he'll forgive you!
Yeah, it's pretty amazing isn't it? Anyone that truly wishes forgiveness and will atone, can receive it.

I guess if you consider Christian theology an awesome subject then yes there are still people doing decent stuff. I think it's somewhat similar to calling yourself an expert in unicorn husbandry, however.
I meant doing decent stuff as in doing charitable works and the like.

Well, with just about three minutes of searching, I'd say these:

"Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh." (1 Peter 2:18)
This is that old virtue from the Ultima series that no one likes: Humility. After all, kill your master on earth and what good will it do besides causing you to murder? The real reward is in heaven.

"Bondservants, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ; not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, with goodwill doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men, knowing that whatever good anyone does, he will receive the same from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free. And you, masters, do the same things to them, giving up threatening, knowing that your own Master also is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him" (Ephesians 6:5-9)
Again, humility and a stay of anger in return for eternal heaven. But that's stuff from Paul and I don't know how much influence he should have even been given on the New Testament…

It's evil. Sorry, if I see someone raping a woman in a street I'm going to stop him, with lethal force if necessary. If someone comes at me with a knife I'm not going to turn the other cheek. If the Hutu ever decided it would be a good idea to try and wipe out the Tutsi again in Rwanda it would be evil of us to sit back and smile because your god says it's a great thing to sit idly by. Pacifism is not a virtue.
Yeah, pacifism is pretty crazy shit isn't it? But it's apparently what Jesus preached, perhaps because it was felt that someone with true faith would understand that whatever crime was committed to them in life, would be repaid infinitely after life.

God wouldn't want Christians to sit idly by, he'd want you to stand in the way of violence, such as blacks did during the civil rights movement. Pacifism can do a lot. Where as violence… well take a look at the Palestinians and Israelis… or for that matter Iraq and Afghanistan.

And it says, therefor, that all humans will suffer for eternity in hell unless they willingly turn over their souls over to some guy who gets to arbitrarily decide what is right and wrong. I'll forgive my wife for adultery after the divorce and if some guy starts fighting me I'm going to fight back, not sit back meekly and let my wife screw the pool boy and allow the tough guy to turn my face into a work of Picasso. So yes, it is pretty tough stuff to do. So is jumping off of a bridge.
But committing suicide is a sin



Which is why I have to worship and praise god and insulting him is a wicked sin enough to condemn me to hell. And if I don't want to worship and praise God I get to spend an eternity suffering. Yeah, this god guy sounds like a real tolerant and non-egotistical fellow. I don't recall god ever striking down anyone for worshipping him or building nice things to him
The golden calf.

- I do recall him striking down people for choosing to endorse his competition, though. And then saying it's great to kill all the remaining men, women, and boys. But keep the virgin girls though, so you can rape them to make more followers.
wat.
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April 18th, 2009, 03:06
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
To start with, the idea that Jesus is your savior (ticket to afterlife). The first commandment "you shall have no other god before me". The love god with all you got. The suggestion that you get to hell if you don't follow Jesus. The stories about what happens to people who do not follow Jesus. Come on, the New Testament is packed with that stuff.
I don't even know what hell is, perhaps it's a state of being away from God. In other words, accepting another God obviously would make you deny the Christian God, perhaps entering into a forced state of oblivion or something?

It even promotes people who are ignorant at a few places, saying God hides the truth from the wise.
I wish I could find this killer site that discusses some of this stuff. The idea isn't that God wants us to be stupid, but it's the idea that the conscience, that is being self aware is actually a curse, or at best a double edged sword and that the story of Adam and Eve is really about God wanting to protect his favorite animal from having to face emotions such as hate and anger and the horror they bring.

You can, in theory. Religions doesn't promote that, warns against it, and if you begin to explore Buddhist and Hindu philosophy, are you really that into Christianity?
Sure, why not? Why do they have to be competition. It's ok to explore other things, unless you're so weak of faith that some other text will break your belief. In that case, maybe said person was never Christian to begin with?

We are talking about a minor book collection out of one geographical area in one time. If that's all you are going to need you will give up a lot. Islam have a better idea for taking care of the poor, Buddhism have a better answer to suffering, Hinduism have a better answer on unity etc.
That's good.

He just replaced one with another that is still not aimed at understanding or exploring humanity.
He replaced one dogma with another dogma even though he preached against the necessity of dogma? And how does he not explore humanity and human emotions? He understands anger and fear, jealousy et al and makes some pretty interesting morals regarding these feelings.

Don't be silly. If you are interpreting criticism of an ideology to hating people who ended up members of it you need to take some serious time off and ask yourself what the difference between an idea and a person is.
Jemy baby! Come on! I've seen enough of your posts from lurking that you have absolutely nothing nice to say about people of faith, and in keeping with true Internet Atheists (I capitalized it) you single out Christianity. Why else would you talk about that retard who wasted himself and that girl? What does that prove? That Christians do bad things? Yeah we know that, and my point still stands: everyone does evil, so what was that suppose to prove?
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April 18th, 2009, 04:29
Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
Oh come on, lets not Godwin this discussion too soon!
The bible actively supports genocide and very evil things. Have you ever read it? I have.

Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
The point about slavery is a point about humility and love. In other words, love even those that take away your freedom since infinite freedom awaits you in heaven. Or so some believe…
So you support slavery then. Cool.

Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
The old testament is all about the stoning. From what we've read of Jesus' teachings, according to him, such things are a bit passe. "Resist not evil" for example. In other words, don't even strike at those that would commit evil against you yourself. I actually don't understand why so many people can use the new testament as a justification for violence since it is riddled with non-violent messages.

Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
Yeah, it's pretty amazing isn't it? Anyone that truly wishes forgiveness and will atone, can receive it.
I guess you'll have fun with all the S.S. officers who were Catholics, then. Such a great and moral religion, that.

Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
I meant doing decent stuff as in doing charitable works and the like.
Not dependent on Christianity.

Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
This is that old virtue from the Ultima series that no one likes: Humility. After all, kill your master on earth and what good will it do besides causing you to murder? The real reward is in heaven.
If someone tries makes me a slave I'll kill them. Sorry, I have a right to freedom. Humility does not mean being a human door mat.

Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
Again, humility and a stay of anger in return for eternal heaven. But that's stuff from Paul and I don't know how much influence he should have even been given on the New Testament…
So basically give up any right to happiness and contentment in the one life you have in the small, unproven possibility there may be something after. Sorry, no.

Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
Yeah, pacifism is pretty crazy shit isn't it? But it's apparently what Jesus preached, perhaps because it was felt that someone with true faith would understand that whatever crime was committed to them in life, would be repaid infinitely after life.
Then Jesus was evil.
Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
God wouldn't want Christians to sit idly by, he'd want you to stand in the way of violence, such as blacks did during the civil rights movement. Pacifism can do a lot. Where as violence… well take a look at the Palestinians and Israelis… or for that matter Iraq and Afghanistan.
Shrug, I'm in favor of Iraq and Afghanistan. Violence can solve issues. If not for violence India would still be part of Britain, Germany would rule Europe, and China would be virtually wiped out or under the thumb of the Japanese. Some things are worth fighting for.

Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
But committing suicide is a sin
So is working on the sabbath or wearing clothes made from the thread of two different cloths.



Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
The golden calf.
Wasn't a representation of the god of the Israelites.

Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
wat.
Read the bible. Where are all the inhabitants of Canaan? God told the Israelites to kill them all.
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April 18th, 2009, 05:35
Originally Posted by Rithrandil View Post
The bible actively supports genocide and very evil things. Have you ever read it? I have.
NO U

So you support slavery then. Cool.
Don't get too passionate. I never said I did, I said that the stuff about slavery are all about humility. Considering Jesus preaches against violence and abuse, I'm certain he doesn't think to highly of slave holders. The point being that being subjected to slavery is no excuse to deviate from humility.

I guess you'll have fun with all the S.S. officers who were Catholics, then. Such a great and moral religion, that.
Yes, all of them were Catholic. It has to be that way because if any of them were agnostic or atheists then the world would end. I keep saying it and I'll say it again: some Christians are assholes, but we still shouldn't condemn them all.

Not dependent on Christianity.
I never said that only Christians do good works. I said that some do.

If someone tries makes me a slave I'll kill them. Sorry, I have a right to freedom. Humility does not mean being a human door mat.
You're hardcore bro!

So basically give up any right to happiness and contentment in the one life you have in the small, unproven possibility there may be something after. Sorry, no.
The point being, if you have no means of happiness and contentment on earth, no matter what, you still have it in heaven. Again, you'd have to have faith to believe this.

Then Jesus was evil.
Because pacifism is evil?

Shrug, I'm in favor of Iraq and Afghanistan. Violence can solve issues. If not for violence India would still be part of Britain, Germany would rule Europe, and China would be virtually wiped out or under the thumb of the Japanese. Some things are worth fighting for.
But india was taken over through violence, Germany used violence to take over Europe, and Japan used… you get the point. Violence begets violence and all that.

So is working on the sabbath or wearing clothes made from the thread of two different cloths.
Old rituals that Jesus claimed were no longer needed. Many of his stories told of the publicly pious folks, that would do their rituals and prayers so all could see. This meant nothing to him. It were those who genuinely sought forgiveness, no matter how improper they were, that were truly blessed.

Read the bible. Where are all the inhabitants of Canaan? God told the Israelites to kill them all.
But I thought violence was acceptable? HAHA I kid I kid, again though, that's old testament. Jesus, again, preached against violence of any kind. I suppose if the conquests of Joshua are part of the Torah or something then you'd have to ask a Jewish person?

Look, to be honest, I'm not even Christian, I'm really agnostic though I have some interest in Jesus' teachings. I really enjoyed the Jefferson Bible. Regardless, I've kind of lost interest in this debate, so you and JemyM win by default. Congrats dudes. Anyways, Fallout 3 is a terrible game.
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April 18th, 2009, 08:51
Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
I wish I could find this killer site that discusses some of this stuff.
The Bible is freely available.

Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
The idea isn't that God wants us to be stupid, but it's the idea that the conscience, that is being self aware is actually a curse, or at best a double edged sword and that the story of Adam and Eve is really about God wanting to protect his favorite animal from having to face emotions such as hate and anger and the horror they bring.
That's just your interpretion.

Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
Sure, why not? Why do they have to be competition. It's ok to explore other things, unless you're so weak of faith that some other text will break your belief.
There are competition. There are competition all the time. Islam and Christianity is the most competitive religions on the planet. Part of being a Christian is to spread the religion.

Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
In that case, maybe said person was never Christian to begin with?
Here you even dabble around with the "not a true Christian" mentality. The belief that "our religion is so great, that no one who really was a member would leave it".

Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
He replaced one dogma with another dogma even though he preached against the necessity of dogma? And how does he not explore humanity and human emotions? He understands anger and fear, jealousy et al and makes some pretty interesting morals regarding these feelings.
The Jesus of the bible shows very little care in other peoples emotions. At times he even exploits others emotions and comes out as rather nasty, so no. Jesus of the bible is your traditional narcissist.

Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
Jemy baby! Come on! I've seen enough of your posts from lurking that you have absolutely nothing nice to say about people of faith, and in keeping with true Internet Atheists (I capitalized it) you single out Christianity. Why else would you talk about that retard who wasted himself and that girl? What does that prove? That Christians do bad things? Yeah we know that, and my point still stands: everyone does evil, so what was that suppose to prove?
I have clarified exactly what I mean in previous replies to you.

Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind. - John F Kennedy
An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
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April 18th, 2009, 13:17
Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
NO U
I'll take that as a no.

Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
Don't get too passionate. I never said I did, I said that the stuff about slavery are all about humility. Considering Jesus preaches against violence and abuse, I'm certain he doesn't think to highly of slave holders. The point being that being subjected to slavery is no excuse to deviate from humility.
No, the Bible says slaves should listen to their masters even if their masters beat them. You interpret that as meaning something else.

Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
Yes, all of them were Catholic. It has to be that way because if any of them were agnostic or atheists then the world would end. I keep saying it and I'll say it again: some Christians are assholes, but we still shouldn't condemn them all.
I didn't say all of them were Catholic. A great deal of them were. Just like some of them were atheists and just like a great deal of the Soviets were atheists.

Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
I never said that only Christians do good works. I said that some do.
And I'm saying good works/morality are independent of Christianity and religion, not that Christians are incapable of such acts.

Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
You're hardcore bro!
So you wouldn't defend your life or yourself being literally enslaved? Sorry, that's pretty pathetic.

Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
The point being, if you have no means of happiness and contentment on earth, no matter what, you still have it in heaven. Again, you'd have to have faith to believe this.
Fair enough.

Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
Because pacifism is evil?
Pacifism? Yes. Non-aggression? No.

Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
But india was taken over through violence, Germany used violence to take over Europe, and Japan used… you get the point. Violence begets violence and all that.
We live in an imperfect world. Since violence will always exist, it's necessary to defend against it and oppose it with violence. Letting someone wipe out a group of people or rape someone is a bad thing.

[quote=Thoth;1060944070]
Old rituals that Jesus claimed were no longer needed. Many of his stories told of the publicly pious folks, that would do their rituals and prayers so all could see. This meant nothing to him. It were those who genuinely sought forgiveness, no matter how improper they were, that were truly blessed.
[/agreed]
Granted.

Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
But I thought violence was acceptable? HAHA I kid I kid, again though, that's old testament. Jesus, again, preached against violence of any kind. I suppose if the conquests of Joshua are part of the Torah or something then you'd have to ask a Jewish person?
Violence is acceptable under certain circumstances. I only bring it up because Christianity is a mutation and off-shoot of Judaism, so obviously Christians have to believe the stuff in the old testament "happened".

Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
Look, to be honest, I'm not even Christian, I'm really agnostic though I have some interest in Jesus' teachings. I really enjoyed the Jefferson Bible. Regardless, I've kind of lost interest in this debate, so you and JemyM win by default. Congrats dudes. Anyways, Fallout 3 is a terrible game.
Cool.
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April 19th, 2009, 07:55
A minor point of terminology, to set the record straight. In the passages quoted using the word 'slave', there are 2 different words being used. One is better translated servant, or employee, while the other is more in line with what we consider a slave to be. The reference to 1 peter 2:18 for example is a case of the former.

Slavery was an accepted part of the culture of that time. The Romans, for example, had many slaves. It was a legal status, or position. Nowhere is Christ saying slavery is good, but since it existed, those passages were addressing how those people (who could do nothing about their condition) should live and behave. It is ALWAYS an error to attempt to impose our beliefs/morality on the people of an different era and culture. The topic is complex, but don't make the mistake of over-simplification. If you read much of it in terms of employer/employee relations, then you will be closer to its intent!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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April 19th, 2009, 11:12
Corwin, now it's you who fall to anachronism. "Servants" like butlers, cooks and maids were slaves back then, not free employees which is a much later concept.

Having said that, in your defense you actually agree to the main issue that fuels many critics against the "founded on a tome" movements in the world, such as Christianity.

The greatest concern for "moral" critics of Christianity & Islam is that the movements;
1. Juridically impose outdated morals
2. Culturally uphold outdated morals
3. Indirectly support outdated morals by defending/spreading/supporting/valueboosting the books that inspire them without a warning sticker.

I think any adult with basic insight in ethics and consequence can tell that the bible is morally outdated. However, there are many out there who say that the bible is infallible and that the bible is a source for moral conduct etc. It is an error to attempt to go to a clearly outdated tome and suggest that's a valuable read for the modern man when it comes to morality and it's exactly that mistake that is done whenever someone treats the bible beyond a regular book.

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April 19th, 2009, 13:14
I don't believe I used the expression FREE employees anywhere in my post. I was simply drawing a parallel. Frequently, these servants were actually family members. One of the terms used, predominantly refers to household, or members thereof!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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April 19th, 2009, 13:45
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
I don't believe I used the expression FREE employees anywhere in my post. I was simply drawing a parallel. Frequently, these servants were actually family members. One of the terms used, predominantly refers to household, or members thereof!!
I think you know well enough which use of the word "servant" was more common in the time and era these books were written down. Both the society and the economy was held up by slaves in the traditional sense of the word. Taking slaves and keeping slaves is a practice repeatedly referred to in the Old Testament. Jesus never said anything against the practice even when directly exposed to it. He spoke about obeying your masters, loving your masters and give them more than they want. In his own parables he often use servants who aren't free, often with unjust implications.

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An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
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April 19th, 2009, 15:01
I think a lot of the old testament is misunderstood. The old testament is about how man wanted his own way. God gave the rules, religious leaders chose the punishment. If God wanted people to kill those who kill, then surely God would have killed Cain. God gave 4k years to man so he can try to reach a righteous life his own way. Man failed, so God gave Jesus. It is only looking at the bible that way that it makes sense overall.
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April 19th, 2009, 15:24
Not recognizing the old testament as a national epoch produced over time by an ancient culture is to misunderstand the tome. The mysteries behind it's production is more exciting than the story itself. In general the bible responds to itself as it's a collection of books, written by different authors in different areas in different times. This is why the book so often disagree with itself, as the different authors had different takes on important questions and introduced their own unique stories to make a point. Seeing the entire collection as inerrant and consistent single book completely discards the treasures of insight into ancient thought and all the human reflections that the book have to offer.

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An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
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April 19th, 2009, 15:29
Originally Posted by Damian Mahadevan View Post
I think a lot of the old testament is misunderstood. The old testament is about how man wanted his own way. God gave the rules, religious leaders chose the punishment. If God wanted people to kill those who kill, then surely God would have killed Cain. God gave 4k years to man so he can try to reach a righteous life his own way. Man failed, so God gave Jesus. It is only looking at the bible that way that it makes sense overall.
I think that makes it make less sense, personally. Bible literalism is a really bad thing. I think the only way to look at the bible and have it make sense is to view it as an interesting piece of fiction and through a sociological/anthropological lens - like how we look at Gilgamesh or stories about the Greek gods. It's pretty clearly fiction, it's pretty clearly self-contradictory, and it pretty clearly "borrows" from earlier religions.

@Corwin - And this is the main problem with the Bible (and all religious documents): Unless you read several languages, have access to the original texts, and have access to a time machine to talk to the original authors of the books you're pretty much using a Ouija board and a compass to try and figure out what it means. How many different translations are there? Books included or not included based on the whims of Church councils? We all know about some of the more serious translations (such as Moses crossing the "Red" sea) or self-contradictions (the two different lineages of Jesus listed in the gospels, the fact that no census occured during the time frame given by the gospels, etc). Additionally, I think we can all agree many of the "moral" lessons of the Bible are clearly outdated and are not part of modern society, which is why I don't get why people want to rely on it for moral decision making.
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April 20th, 2009, 02:39
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
Not recognizing the old testament as a national epoch produced over time by an ancient culture is to misunderstand the tome. The mysteries behind it's production is more exciting than the story itself. In general the bible responds to itself as it's a collection of books, written by different authors in different areas in different times. This is why the book so often disagree with itself, as the different authors had different takes on important questions and introduced their own unique stories to make a point. Seeing the entire collection as inerrant and consistent single book completely discards the treasures of insight into ancient thought and all the human reflections that the book have to offer.
If it isnt consistent then it is obviously false. What i mentioned is the only way it can be consistent.
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April 20th, 2009, 03:25
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
MAN! This thread is ballz without that guy Thoth! I wish he'd return so we could discuss religion and politics!
HAI GUIZE! I'm not supposed to post in this thread anymore since I said I wouldn't, but I can't resist. I'm a hypocrite after all.

The greatest concern for "moral" critics of Christianity & Islam is that the movements;
1. Juridically impose outdated morals
Outdated like "Thou shalt not kill?" or all that stuff about not stealing or not lying before a court? And those are only the basics…

2. Culturally uphold outdated morals
That's a matter of opinion really. As an example, is being against promiscuous and meaningless sex really outdated?

3. Indirectly support outdated morals by defending/spreading/supporting/valueboosting the books that inspire them without a warning sticker.
Come on, really? Do you have to resort to such lame "Us-vs-Them" tactics?

I think any adult with basic insight in ethics and consequence can tell that the bible is morally outdated.
The bible recommends some of the same morals, ethics, and laws we take for granted today. Murder, adultery, theft…
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April 20th, 2009, 04:38
It's funny, by being on this forum for several years, I know exactly that I've seen this scene quite often before
Corwin did use to argue with JemyM as well, I think.
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April 20th, 2009, 08:37
Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
The bible recommends some of the same morals, ethics, and laws we take for granted today. Murder, adultery, theft…
Have you ever tried to steal a bone from a dog? How did it react?
Is murder legal in Thailand?
Are murder and theft made by Jesus and biblical characters ok?

You prove my point about chauvinism here. By suggesting these ethics are the core of Christianity, indirectly you are suggesting non-Christians and other cultures are murderers, adulterers and thieves. You suggest that everyone must be taught by your book that harming people is a problem. Did you even consider that those rules are neither unique to Christianity, nor the only ones in the 1500-page tome?

I think you have the INTELLECT to understand what "outdated morals" I speak about, so do not act silly!

Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
That's a matter of opinion really. As an example, is being against promiscuous and meaningless sex really outdated?
Yes of course.

Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind. - John F Kennedy
An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
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April 20th, 2009, 09:02
How can morals ever be outdated? Sorry, but that concept escapes me!! Morals ARE. Either something is moral, or it is not. I'll agree that SOME morality can be affected by culture; there are few if any moral absolutes outside of either culture, or religion, but which morals specifically do YOU consider outdated and why. While I don't believe in other religions, at least for the most part we share a fairly common moral code!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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April 20th, 2009, 09:28
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
How can morals ever be outdated? Sorry, but that concept escapes me!! Morals ARE. Either something is moral, or it is not. I'll agree that SOME morality can be affected by culture; there are few if any moral absolutes outside of either culture, or religion, but which morals specifically do YOU consider outdated and why.
Moral zeitgeist.

Ethics are founded in our insights. The more we know and the more we think the more we ponder about the consequences of our actions. Thus, with increased knowledge, things that used to be hold as moral is now non-moral or immoral. Sometimes morals are based in fear of the untried, so shifts in morals are usually blocked by fear.

One recent shift is the one that supports democratic values while supporting totalitarian control is not. Another one is the discovery that even women can be professors, where people used to think that was bad because they never tried to educate women. Another one is slavery that was seen as ok, but now isn't anymore. It used to be immoral to cut in dead bodies, now we do it all the time in medical science.

Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
While I don't believe in other religions, at least for the most part we share a fairly common moral code!!
I disagree. Zakat is for instance not a core in Christianity. In Christianity you were always supposed to give everything you had to church, but the idea of Charity is not central.
The idea of rejecting alcohol is not central to the Bible, but it's central in Islam. Many Christians reject alcohol (except wine) and look down upon those who drink alcohol, even though this isn't an ethic pushed on the bible.
Most Christians take the majority of the Buddhist ethics as self-evident, even if those are not even mentioned in the Bible, such as do not harm others through your voice, do not provoke hostility, seek knowledge, meditate, do not brawl etc. etc.
The unity idea within Hinduism is sadly missed in Christianity, the closest idea to it was brought on by Martin Luther King that suggested that "we are all children of God".

Depending on what values are central, what values aren't central and what values aren't even mentioned, cultures can take similar yet very different forms. These recently mentioned ethics have been brought into Christianity at a later time, by Christians who reinterpreted the scripture or did they best to establish their own morals as Christian morals. The steady reformation of Christianity shows how moral behavior is brought on by experience and by human needs, not the religion.

You do not follow the ethics in the Bible. Everytime the bible goes against your values you seek a way to reinterpret the bible. That's pretty much your job, isn't it?

Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind. - John F Kennedy
An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
Last edited by JemyM; April 20th, 2009 at 09:43.
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April 20th, 2009, 11:30
There is no good and there is no evil.

There is benefit and harm - and they're both subjective.
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