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RPGWatch Forums » General Forums » Politics & Religion » Gov Perry apparently wasn't kidding concerning Texas Secession

Default Gov Perry apparently wasn't kidding concerning Texas Secession

April 18th, 2009, 21:49
Man, you've lost me. But I like and agree with your Kennan quote, even if you don't. I"m glad to see you're still alive in there somewhere.

About this Texas secession crap, you do realize it's nothing more than a political ploy to fire up the base so Perry can get positioned to fight Kay Bailey Hutchison, a more rational Republican, in the next primary, right?

Where there's smoke, there's mirrors.
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April 18th, 2009, 21:49
Originally Posted by Unrestigered View Post
That must be it. Crazy in love with your cunning mind!
Thanks.

Originally Posted by Unrestigered View Post
Heh. Wow. Cool. Your comprehension ability is amazing. You donít have much going on upstairs do you? But your heart is in the right place so instead of not replying I throw a bunch of quotes at you.

As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression.
In both instances, there's a twilight where everything remains seemingly unchanged,
and it is in such twilight that we must be aware of change in the air, however slight,
lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
— Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas

"America is at that awkward stage; it's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." —Claire Wolfe

"You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the great struggle for independence." —Charles Austin Beard

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." —William Pitt

"Usually, terrible things that are done with the excuse that progress requires them are not really progress at all, but just terrible things." —Russell Baker

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

"Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you're a man, you take it." —Malcolm X
Great, doesn't explain how we're living under a tyrannical dictatorship.

Originally Posted by Unrestigered View Post
You have no idea what my stances are on political issues. Iím probably the most liberal person alive. Unless you are a cult member and take liberal to be defined as social fascism, in which case okay, I guess you know everything you need to know about my stance on everything, which is ďnot yours,Ē which in turn makes me a racist and a terrorist.
All I know about your political beliefs are that you are apparently in favor of treason and secession. So I'm calling you someone who's willing to support those things, I don't think I've yet to call you a racist and a terrorist.

Originally Posted by Unrestigered View Post
Youíre still stuck on coups. Read the definition. Again, this country was taken over by a coup years ago. But again, it wouldnít be a coup. And stop speaking for the military like you have your finger on the pulse of what makes them tick. Playing video games doesnít make you a military expert, regardless of the picture you chose to use for your handle.
Main Entry:coup d'ťtat Variant(s)r coup d'etat \ˌkŁ-(ˌ)dā-ˈtš, ˈkŁ-(ˌ)dā-ˌ, -də-\ Function:noun Inflected Form(s):plural coups d'ťtat or coups d'etat \-ˈtš(z), -ˌtš(z)\ Etymology:French, literally, stroke of stateDate:1646 : a sudden decisive exercise of force in politics ; especially : the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group
Alright, I guess if you consider lawful elections a "decisive exercise of force in politics" then there was a coup a few years ago. I must have missed the memo, though, since I seem to recall fair elections. My picture is from the movie Aliens, but I wouldn't expect you to know about that movie living in your bunker beneath the Alamo and all. I've never claimed to be a military expert, but I know a few and have worked with many. And unless you have any stars on your shoulders you don't get to speak for the military either.

Originally Posted by Unrestigered View Post
You have no idea what ROE is. Ordering anyone in the military to shoot a non-hostile who poses no direct threat to life or equipment is an illegal order and can be ignored. They could give the order because stealing military equipment is as direct a threat to equipment as possible, but if the brass kept pushing the ďdisobeying a legal orderĒ nonsense everyone would turn into conscientious objectors. Itís like the only military doctrine you are familiar with was alive and well with Baron Von Steuben. Shit has changed. Vietnam to today has basically rendered most of the UCMJ irrelevant, and that is pretty new when compared to the life of this country. Nothing happens to soldiers who go awol or disobey orders. There is too many ways around everything. The military today is basically run on everyone being willing to play the game, and going to war with Texas if they had a democratic election to secede would be a game they wonít want to play.
Well, I guess I consider traitors a hostile target. You don't, apparently. Good to know that the "all enemies, foreign and domestic" bit is taken so seriously by you.

Originally Posted by Unrestigered View Post
Obama is smart enough not to force the military to ignore him, and undermine all his authority as commander and chief. He wouldnít try to start hostilities. The most he could hope for is for Texas to start hostilities, in which case things would be different.
Once again I'm amazed that you think the military would gladly allow treason within its ranks.

Originally Posted by Unrestigered View Post
And of course, weíve come to people who wonít join the cult and who speak against the cult being terrorists. Sure.
What cult are you talking about? And who is calling who terrorists? I don't think I've seen anyone but a few crackpots calling the military terrorists, and they're shouted down by pretty much all sides of the aisle.

Originally Posted by Unrestigered View Post
Your brain works like a well oiled machine. You think Texas would say they are doing something illegal? Do the states that break federal law regularly admit they are breaking federal law? That isnít how it works. Different groups of people put different weights of value on different articles, laws, amendments, and rights. No one is illegal, my dear Rathrandil. No one is illegal.
What the hell are you talking about? If someone raped a prostitute they wouldn't escape punishment just because they said "it's not illegal!". Even if Texas produced the best, well ordered legal brief in the history of all mankind stating how what they were doing is perfectly legal, the US government still would fight against it.

Originally Posted by Unrestigered View Post
I canít be called racist, Iím black. The new definition of racist is non-cult white folk. I have Stockholm Syndrome. I fell in love with my captors. And not being a member of the cult means my synapsesí misfires and my brainóit just donít work right.
So basically because some two-bit hollywood actress and Keith Olbermann called the tea party people racist, it's alright to rebel against the United States now? Hey man, I've been told by a sitting president that members of my demographic shouldn't even be considered American citizens or have the right to vote.


Originally Posted by Unrestigered View Post
Awesome. But blacks canít be racist and if you called me one youíd be racist. I donít mind socialists, I do mind the cult memberís modern day McCarthyism. But you canít be bothered, so who cares. Its not like the cult members are being bullied into silence. You have your own problems, why stick up for the rights of people you disagree with to not be marginalized or ignored.

"When any government, or any church for that matter, undertakes to say to its subjects, 'This you may not read, this you must not see, this you are forbidden to know,' the end result is tyranny and oppression, no matter how holy the motives. Mighty little force is needed to control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked; contrariwise, no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything—you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." —Robert A. Heinlein

Iím sorry, I forgot Heinlein is considered a fascist by cult members. Lets fake I didnít quote him.
Alright, so what is being censored and kept from the populace today?

Originally Posted by Unrestigered View Post
My sense of humor ends where oppression begins. The hypocrisy and crazy is too prominent and imbedded too deep. No one tries to learn anymore. Everyone just closed their mind off from tolerance and growth, along with reason and sensibility.
How are you being opressed, other then two idiots on MSNBC insulting you?

Originally Posted by Unrestigered View Post
". . . it lies within the power as well as the duty of all of us to recognize not only the possibility that we might be wrong but the virtual certainty that on some occasions we are bound to be. The fact that this is so does not absolve us from the duty of having views and putting them forward. But it does make it incumbent upon us to recognize the element of doubt that still surrounds the correctness of these views. And if we do that, we will not be able to lose ourselves in the transports of moral indignation against those who are of opposite opinion and follow a different line, we will put our views forward only with a prayer for forgiveness for the event that we prove to be mistaken." George Kennan
You're using *Kennan* in an argument for treason and secession? Really?
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April 18th, 2009, 22:22
I know I'm going to be sorry I did this, but okay, I'll take you seriously
roqua wrote
No, the cult hates anyone who disagrees with them. The rest just don't want to be meddled with. I didn’t see a lot or any hate on the little coverage I was able to see of the Tea Parties. I’m guessing you didn’t watch the video I linked to.
No, I didn't, because I hate you-tube. If it was a clip from Olberman the other night, I saw it on the show—it was bogus. You have to realize that Olberman is the O'Reilly of the left—he's in it for the money. he's not as crazy as Limbaugh, but he's just as opinionated.

Awesome. But blacks can’t be racist and if you called me one you’d be racist. I don’t mind socialists, I do mind the cult member’s modern day McCarthyism. But you can’t be bothered, so who cares. Its not like the cult members are being bullied into silence. You have your own problems, why stick up for the rights of people you disagree with to not be marginalized or ignored.
Of course blacks can be racist. I wasn't calling you one, however. I think there's some excuse to say there are white racists involved on the extreme fringe of the right wing, and that they came along for the ride on the teabagging. But I'm fine with them and everyone else who came out in their simple fashion and protested on April 15. I didn't see anyone bullying them into silence—not like I saw the Chicago cops beat people in 1967. Got footage?

I’m sorry, I forgot Heinlein is considered a fascist by cult members. Lets fake I didn’t quote him.
Why? It was a perfectly valid quote. I like books and stuff.

A socialist loves a capitalist country? I don’t understand. It’s so insane I can’t get past this. It’s like Gandhi telling the Dalai Lama how much he loved their UFC fight. And again, who is my side? It has nothing to do with D’s or R’s. It has to do with those who want to impose their moral will on those who don’t want to be meddled with, D's and R's and I's and L's and G's alike. The label doesn't matter, the intent does. I'm not a fan of oppression from any side.
Our country is actually an interesting mix of socialism and capitalism—medicare, social security, the FDIC, etc, and I happen to think it works out okay, though it needs some work at the moment.

So keep in mind you are saying everyone who moved to Canada when Bush won an election threw a childish tantrum.
People moved to Canada over Bush? Wild.

If South Dakota wanted to secede democratically to become a country catering to the needs of sexual deviants and circus clowns why would it make anyone mad? Let them live their life how they want. Why force people to fall in line when they don’t want to be in line. I don’t want to give them the money i worked for or to force me to make sweet love to a donkey while wearing a clown outfit, but other than that, good for them. I’d leave them alone, they’d leave me alone. No harm no foul. Live and let live. And if I ever want to regularly tag team a sea cow and a midget dressed as bozo while a chimp whips me and pours hot wax on my balls or similar wacky sexual exploration, I’ll know what country to go to. The world would be a richer and more diverse place with less oppression and more freedoms for consenting adults. No one loses. Except the cult members who want to control the thoughts and minds of everyone.
That's the part where you lost me—but nice visuals on the clown/donkey sex and I say, America needs someplace like that—California just isn't enough.

My sense of humor ends where oppression begins. The hypocrisy and crazy is too prominent and imbedded too deep. No one tries to learn anymore. Everyone just closed their mind off from tolerance and growth, along with reason and sensibility.
I think you're taking a very dark and extreme view of things and I hope it gets better for you. I hope I am able to keep learning til I die. If I sometimes appear huffy about the right, it's because I also feel my identity and freedom of expression threatened, not because I want to stifle anyone else's.

Where there's smoke, there's mirrors.
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April 18th, 2009, 23:01
Originally Posted by Unrestigered View Post
"What makes the liberal bias in the mainstream media so pernicious is that they deny that they're biased and insist that their twisted version of events is "reality," and anyone who disagrees with them is either mentally or morally suspect. In other words, they're fanatics. And, like all good fanatics, they're utterly convinced that they're in sole possession of virtue and truth." Orson Scott Card
Back at you.

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For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.

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The Chaos Cascade
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April 18th, 2009, 23:41
I have to reply but I really have to go after this

Great, doesn't explain how we're living under a tyrannical dictatorship.
I never said I was. I donít have time to re-quote myself when itís there for you to actually read.

All I know about your political beliefs are that you are apparently in favor of treason and secession.
Like almost all the men printed on our currency?

So I'm calling you someone who's willing to support those things,
Like our founding fathers?

I don't think I've yet to call you a racist and a terrorist.
I guess non-terrorists blow up federal buildings as a fun-filled weekend activity when a ticket to Disney is out of their financial grasp?

Alright, I guess if you consider lawful elections a "decisive exercise of force in politics" then there was a coup a few years ago. I must have missed the memo, though, since I seem to recall fair elections. My picture is from the movie Aliens, but I wouldn't expect you to know about that movie living in your bunker beneath the Alamo and all. I've never claimed to be a military expert, but I know a few and have worked with many. And unless you have any stars on your shoulders you don't get to speak for the military either.
No but in every post you seem to have an expert friend or friends on the subject at hand. And what was the key word in the definition you posted? Violent. Iím right, you are wrong. Ha ha ha he-haw. And generals donít get to speak for the enlisted. Majors canít even speak for the enlisted. The only officers that work with the troops are LTís to Captains, and I doubt you could find any enlisted soldier that would say they know a captain that could speak for them. A star on my shoulder would guarantee I couldnít speak for the bulk of military. Every book and every movie about the military seems to have swallowed the ďgreat manĒ theory hook, line, and sinker. The military is more bottom-oriented. The most powerful people who have the best chance to be obeyed by Infantry soldiers without question are squad leaders (usually E-6ís) and platoon sergeants (e-7ís). LTís are cherries who listen to platoon sergeants. You donít fuck with infantry platoon sergeants. Generals are pogues who havenít humped (road marched) in years, but theyíre okay because if they lead division PT you know it will be an easy run because their old pogue asses canít run fast.

And no, I was never a platoon sergeant. I got out as an e-5, buck sergeant. A junior NCO. And I didnít mention first sergeant or command sergeant major because on mission you donít see them often. But if the first sergeant (only pogues say top) or command sergeant major say jump, you jump, because if you donít your platoon sergeant will ass rape you, or more likely have your squad and team leader ass rape you. (there are no master sergeants or sergeant majors in the infantry, only first sergeant and command sergeant majors, there actually are some, but they do pogue jobs and are usually broke-dicks, so are infantry no longer). Of course, I can only speak for the Infantry, as I donít know how the other MOSís work. Arty doesnít have to look the people they kill in the eye so they might be more willing to lob shells on the non-hostile non-combatants of Texas, maybe the same for air bomber people. I canít see it though.

Well, I guess I consider traitors a hostile target. You don't, apparently. Good to know that the "all enemies, foreign and domestic" bit is taken so seriously by you.
Well, you said you are not a military expert so what you consider is irrelevant. If the military were to consider traitors hostile targets there would be a lot more dead people. Being most types of traitor really isnít a big deal anymore. Going AWOL really isnít a big deal. Can you name how many people were killed as traitors in the last 60 years?

Define enemies, define foreign, define domestic. Define the precedent for defending against them. Letís say you start a business and you ask this guy to come work for you, and the guy says, ďSure, but Iím clearly stating in writing in my contract that I can leave whenever I want.Ē You say, ďOkay.Ē Time goes by and you tell the person, ĎHey, remember how you said you could leave whenever you want and I said okay? I take it back, you canít.Ē And the guy smiles and keeps on working because his goals and your goals are currently along the same path. But, one day he says to you, ďWell, regardless of you telling me I canít go, Iím actually going to because you canít just change shit all willy-nilly because you say can.Ē And the guy leaves to do his own thing, so you shoot him for being a traitor. Awesome. You murdering, lying, deal breaking, bastard. Shame on you! For shame!

Once again I'm amazed that you think the military would gladly allow treason within its ranks.
Once again Iím amazed that you canít think, or can only think in black and white. Why arenít you amazed that the military hasnít acted on its own to support and defend the constitution when the constitution has clearly been breached? Because shit isnít black and white, people usually have reason and an argument that clouds the issue.

Here is an example:
Person 1ďYou broke the constitution! Kill them Military!Ē

Person 2 ďOh no I didnít. I interpreted it this way so I am actually following the constitution more better than you even!Ē

Military: ďShucks! Iím blood thirsty and wanted to kill someone and now I canít. My head hurts now because Iím a brainless automaton and I canít think and I kind of had to there for a second. I guess Iíll go over here and suppress my urge to rape and murder children.

See, itís not black and white is it?

What cult are you talking about? And who is calling who terrorists? I don't think I've seen anyone but a few crackpots calling the military terrorists, and they're shouted down by pretty much all sides of the aisle.
Well, not only are you super astute, but also well informed. Nice to meet you Mr. Chauncey Gardiner.

What the hell are you talking about? If someone raped a prostitute they wouldn't escape punishment just because they said "it's not illegal!". Even if Texas produced the best, well ordered legal brief in the history of all mankind stating how what they were doing is perfectly legal, the US government still would fight against it.
The Government will physically fight? Is Obama going to wrap a bandana around his noggin like Ralph Macchio in the Karate kid 2? That would be awesome. I bet Barney Frank challenges a traitor to Greco-roman wrestling match. I canít see anyone in the judicial branch throwing down though.
The government doesnít fight you big silly. The military does. And it wonít, no matter how much you hope and pray and wish for murder and death and the legal raping of prostitutes, you sick-o.

So basically because some two-bit hollywood actress and Keith Olbermann called the tea party people racist, it's alright to rebel against the United States now? Hey man, I've been told by a sitting president that members of my demographic shouldn't even be considered American citizens or have the right to vote.
You nailed it! You seem to have a great ability to imply a great many things in all the wrong places.

Alright, so what is being censored and kept from the populace today?
How are you being opressed, other then two idiots on MSNBC insulting you?

Iíll answer this when I reply to the other kids question at a later time.

You're using *Kennan* in an argument for treason and secession? Really?
No. I used the quote after saying everyone has closed their mind off from growth and tolerance, stopped reasoning and being sensible. Good catch on that being so crazy.
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April 19th, 2009, 00:05
Originally Posted by Unrestigered View Post
I never said I was. I donít have time to re-quote myself when itís there for you to actually read.
You never have explained how you are oppressed and marginalized why this is a tyranny to justify your secessionist attitudes.

Originally Posted by Unrestigered View Post
Like almost all the men printed on our currency?
None of whom had representation in their government. You do. You just lost the elections.

Originally Posted by Unrestigered View Post
Like our founding fathers?
See above - and you and the other secessionists are nothing like the founders.

Originally Posted by Unrestigered View Post
I guess non-terrorists blow up federal buildings as a fun-filled weekend activity when a ticket to Disney is out of their financial grasp?
And I guess people loyal to the constitution openly talk about rebellion because they're sad about election results and laws that are passed constitutionally.

Originally Posted by Unrestigered View Post
No but in every post you seem to have an expert friend or friends on the subject at hand. And what was the key word in the definition you posted? Violent. Iím right, you are wrong. Ha ha ha he-haw. And generals donít get to speak for the enlisted. Majors canít even speak for the enlisted. The only officers that work with the troops are LTís to Captains, and I doubt you could find any enlisted soldier that would say they know a captain that could speak for them. A star on my shoulder would guarantee I couldnít speak for the bulk of military. Every book and every movie about the military seems to have swallowed the ďgreat manĒ theory hook, line, and sinker. The military is more bottom-oriented. The most powerful people who have the best chance to be obeyed by Infantry soldiers without question are squad leaders (usually E-6ís) and platoon sergeants (e-7ís). LTís are cherries who listen to platoon sergeants. You donít fuck with infantry platoon sergeants. Generals are pogues who havenít humped (road marched) in years, but theyíre okay because if they lead division PT you know it will be an easy run because their old pogue asses canít run fast.

And no, I was never a platoon sergeant. I got out as an e-5, buck sergeant. A junior NCO. And I didnít mention first sergeant or command sergeant major because on mission you donít see them often. But if the first sergeant (only pogues say top) or command sergeant major say jump, you jump, because if you donít your platoon sergeant will ass rape you, or more likely have your squad and team leader ass rape you. (there are no master sergeants or sergeant majors in the infantry, only first sergeant and command sergeant majors, there actually are some, but they do pogue jobs and are usually broke-dicks, so are infantry no longer). Of course, I can only speak for the Infantry, as I donít know how the other MOSís work. Arty doesnít have to look the people they kill in the eye so they might be more willing to lob shells on the non-hostile non-combatants of Texas, maybe the same for air bomber people. I canít see it though.
Fair enough, glad to know the enlisted are cool with secession and treason, once again.

Originally Posted by Unrestigered View Post
Well, you said you are not a military expert so what you consider is irrelevant. If the military were to consider traitors hostile targets there would be a lot more dead people. Being most types of traitor really isnít a big deal anymore. Going AWOL really isnít a big deal. Can you name how many people were killed as traitors in the last 60 years?
Going AWOL is different then supporting a rebellion or an insurrection. And none have - Hansen was thrown in prison, that's about it. We also haven't had a full-on rebellion/outbreak of treason since the Civil War.

Originally Posted by Unrestigered View Post
Define enemies, define foreign, define domestic. Define the precedent for defending against them. Letís say you start a business and you ask this guy to come work for you, and the guy says, ďSure, but Iím clearly stating in writing in my contract that I can leave whenever I want.Ē You say, ďOkay.Ē Time goes by and you tell the person, ĎHey, remember how you said you could leave whenever you want and I said okay? I take it back, you canít.Ē And the guy smiles and keeps on working because his goals and your goals are currently along the same path. But, one day he says to you, ďWell, regardless of you telling me I canít go, Iím actually going to because you canít just change shit all willy-nilly because you say can.Ē And the guy leaves to do his own thing, so you shoot him for being a traitor. Awesome. You murdering, lying, deal breaking, bastard. Shame on you! For shame!
I'd define a traitor or a rebel or an insurrectionist as an enemy - as the U.S. did in the Civil War. Texas already tried to secede. Didn't work. And everyone who signed that treaty is dead. Should we give the land back to the Indians we stole it from in violation of the treaties, by the way?

Originally Posted by Unrestigered View Post
Once again Iím amazed that you canít think, or can only think in black and white. Why arenít you amazed that the military hasnít acted on its own to support and defend the constitution when the constitution has clearly been breached? Because shit isnít black and white, people usually have reason and an argument that clouds the issue.

Here is an example:
Person 1ďYou broke the constitution! Kill them Military!Ē

Person 2 ďOh no I didnít. I interpreted it this way so I am actually following the constitution more better than you even!Ē

Military: ďShucks! Iím blood thirsty and wanted to kill someone and now I canít. My head hurts now because Iím a brainless automaton and I canít think and I kind of had to there for a second. I guess Iíll go over here and suppress my urge to rape and murder children.

See, itís not black and white is it?
Trying to secede from the Union has been pretty clearly ruled as unconstitutional and illegal. See: the Civil War. We're not talking about whether or not it's illegal for a Church to hang the ten commandments within its grounds. There are degrees, and treason is a pretty serious crime.

Originally Posted by Unrestigered View Post
Well, not only are you super astute, but also well informed. Nice to meet you Mr. Chauncey Gardiner.
And once again you refuse to actually give any facts about why you're being oppressed.

Originally Posted by Unrestigered View Post
The Government will physically fight? Is Obama going to wrap a bandana around his noggin like Ralph Macchio in the Karate kid 2? That would be awesome. I bet Barney Frank challenges a traitor to Greco-roman wrestling match. I canít see anyone in the judicial branch throwing down though.
The government doesnít fight you big silly. The military does. And it wonít, no matter how much you hope and pray and wish for murder and death and the legal raping of prostitutes, you sick-o.
The military is an arm of the government, hence the government would fight it.

Originally Posted by Unrestigered View Post
You nailed it! You seem to have a great ability to imply a great many things in all the wrong places.
And you have a great ability to talk about all these evil cults oppressing you and your way of life without actually producing any evidence, sources, examples, dates, incidents, what have you. Alright, I'm through with this argument, since as a few people have pointed out to me your only goal is to get a rise out of others and to spout whatever crazy BS you have on your mind at the time. Let me know how the Lone Star Republic project goes, I'll be busy reading my cult material and turning away from knowledge and freedom in support of my socialist overlords.
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April 19th, 2009, 00:07
Rithrandil, I really can't think of a better way to say this but… You are completely wrong.

No American would be ordered to shoot an American. First of all, the US would deny that Texas had seceded. Therefore, they would still be American according to the US. There wouldn't be any missiles blowing shit up. No Navy Cruisers/Destroyers tearing up Coast Guard Cutters. No soldiers marching through Texas shooting down people holding guns (which, by the way would be every man, woman and child in Texas). The Texans would know this and would not start any shooting (Probably).

At most, I could see a black ops team taking out the leaders of the seceders.

I do not speak for the entire military but I can say with 100% certainty that I would not kill a Texan if ordered to unless they were starting some shit. I am also very confident that I am not the only one.

Nobody would be executed for disobeying and your adamant stance of death for disobedience shows how naive you are. Do you realize how bad that would look on CNN, looped for 24 hours? The federal government would lose control of everything and everybody.
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April 19th, 2009, 00:21
Originally Posted by Korplem View Post
Rithrandil, I really can't think of a better way to say this but… You are completely wrong.

No American would be ordered to shoot an American. First of all, the US would deny that Texas had seceded. Therefore, they would still be American according to the US. There wouldn't be any missiles blowing shit up. No Navy Cruisers/Destroyers tearing up Coast Guard Cutters. No soldiers marching through Texas shooting down people holding guns (which, by the way would be every man, woman and child in Texas). The Texans would know this and would not start any shooting (Probably).

At most, I could see a black ops team taking out the leaders of the seceders.

I do not speak for the entire military but I can say with 100% certainty that I would not kill a Texan if ordered to unless they were starting some shit. I am also very confident that I am not the only one.

Nobody would be executed for disobeying and your adamant stance of death for disobedience shows how naive you are. Do you realize how bad that would look on CNN, looped for 24 hours? The federal government would lose control of everything and everybody.
No, I imagine it would start roughly like the Civil War did. No firing for a bit - but I'm sure when the Feds sent the FBI or whoever to arrest the Governor/whoever was in charge that they would be stopped, and forcibly. Eventually one side or another would fire a shot, and I imagine unless Texas backed down and "re-joined" the Union there would have to be a war. Do you really expect the government not to do everything in it's power to keep a state from seceding? If they allowed it to happen it'd be the end of the union.
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April 19th, 2009, 00:31
The PEN is mightier than the sword! They wouldn't march in and wait for a gun to fire. They would throw paper around and strangle them in legalities until one side gave up or Texas turned into the Western world's gaza strip.

Wake up! This isn't a game of laser tag. You want REAL LIVING PEOPLE to DIE for saying they aren't apart of the US/not kill somebody.

Check this out:

I, Korplem, hereby secede from the United States of America as an independent entity.

So what?

EDIT: Oh, and if the US sent somebody to arrest/capture/kill the leaders it wouldn't be somebody fumble-fucking their way around in plain sight.
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April 19th, 2009, 00:39
Originally Posted by Korplem View Post
The PEN is mightier than the sword! They wouldn't march in and wait for a gun to fire. They would throw paper around and strangle them in legalities until one side gave up or Texas turned into the Western world's gaza strip.

Wake up! This isn't a game of laser tag. You want REAL LIVING PEOPLE to DIE for saying they aren't apart of the US/not kill somebody.

Check this out:

I, Korplem, hereby secede from the United States of America as an independent entity.

So what?
In Unrestigered's secessionist fantasy he had Texans seizing federal property and equipment. If Texans just "Declared" themselves independent and then didn't follow it up with any action, then I completely agree with you, we'd just blockade them or do whatever. IF, however, this declaration was followed by some sort of action, it'd be like the Confederates taking Fort Sumter.

And I don't want real living people to die. I'm not itching to go kill a bunch of Texans - especially since I believe they have *legitimate grievances I am supportive of*. I think Texas's tax money (and California's, since that is where I am from) is being wasted and thrown away on stupid crap that doesn't matter. I'm not arguing for secession and a war. I think secession would be stupid and a war and lots of death and bad things would happen because of it. I even said that I wouldn't like it because then all of our *actual* enemies would profit off of this mess (even a bloodless mess) while our attention was occupied elsewhere. I'm not the one waving the rebel flag here. I know it's not a game of freaking laser tag, but treason is a crime. You're just some random guy saying you don't recognize the U.S.'s authority. Fine, but I imagine you are still paying taxes in that scenario and that you aren't marching on to the nearest piece of federal property with an armed posse and either surrounding it, telling them to join you, or to leave . If you did, you'd get thrown in prison. If *A STATE* says that and stops responding to the federal government, seizes federal property, etc it's another matter entirely, so as you so succinctly put it, wake up!
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April 19th, 2009, 00:59
Hah, ok, that part was a joke…

I guess I'm about done with this conversation. I gave my two cents, do with it as you will.
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April 19th, 2009, 08:16
Ok, after reading all of this I have to say that Roqua sure knows how to stir the pot. I'm sure, as a matter of fact I KNOW, there are people with Roqua's supposed point of view. However, I don't believe he actually believes this non-sense and he is just playing another game. Good joke Roqua, I sure would hate being your friend in real life though, it would be a constant roller coaster but at least it wouldn't be boring.

I have some quotes for you Roqua since you are very fond of quotes "May you live in interesting times." ~Chinese Curse
I thought this one fitting for you


“Do not conquer the world with force, for force only causes resistance. Thorns spring up when an army passes. Years of misery follow a great victory. Do only what needs to be done without using violence.”~ Tao Te Ching

“Whoever can see through all fear will always be safe.”~ Tao Te Ching

"Governing a large country is like frying a small fish. You spoil it with too much poking.”~ Tao Te Ching

There is wisdom there if you look for it, unlike your ealier quotes of doom and gloom. These do not focus on the problem, but offer solutions to the problem.

As for the rest of the conversation with using violence to keep Texas, well that situation will never happen. Texas will not secede, it is all just fantasy for nutcases. The only way a major change like that could happen is if something disasterous befell the United States.

Despite all my rage.
I'm still just a rat in a cage.
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April 19th, 2009, 08:18
A simple question: When a State joined the Union, what were the legal terms employed? Was there provision made for them to leave, or does that not exist anywhere? If leaving is a legal impossibility under the terms of union, then all this discussion is moot.

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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April 19th, 2009, 08:42
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
A simple question: When a State joined the Union, what were the legal terms employed? Was there provision made for them to leave, or does that not exist anywhere? If leaving is a legal impossibility under the terms of union, then all this discussion is moot.
I'm not much of an expert on Constitutional law, but I tried to find out for you Corwin, and it appears that it's illegal under the Constitution, but that never stopped anybody who really wanted to do it.
wikipedia:
Texas v. White, 74 U.S. 700 (1869) was argued before the United States Supreme Court in 1869. The Court held in a 5–3 decision that the Constitution did not permit states to secede from the United States, and that the ordinances of secession, and all the acts of the legislatures within seceding states intended to give effect to such ordinances, were "absolutely null". However, the decision did allow some possibility of the divisibility "through revolution, or through consent of the States."[29][30]
Nonetheless, a lot of people seem to have gotten into it:
The group Republic of Texas generated national publicity for its actions in the late 1990s. There have been repeated attempts to form a Republic of Cascadia in the Pacific Northwest. The Hawaiian sovereignty movement has a number of active groupings which have won some concessions from the State of Hawaii.

In November 2006, the Supreme Court of Alaska held that secession was illegal, Kohlhaas vs. State, and refused to permit an Initiative to be presented to the people of Alaska for a vote. The Alaskan Independence Party remains a factor in state politics.[NOTE: This is the group that got the attention for having the Palins attend their meetings]
Efforts to organize a continental secession movement have been initiated since 2004 by members of Second Vermont Republic, working with noted decentralist author Kirkpatrick Sale. Their second "radical consultation" in November 2004 resulted in a statement of intent called The Middlebury Declaration. It also gave rise to the Middlebury Institute, which is dedicated to the "study of separatism, secession, and self-determination" and which engages in secessionist organizing.

In November 2006 the same group sponsored the First North American Secessionist Convention which attracted 40 participants from 16 secessionist organizations and was (erroneously) described as the first gathering of secessionists since the Civil War. Delegates included a broad spectrum from libertarians to socialists to greens to Christian conservatives to indigenous peoples activists. Groups represented included Alaskan Independence Party, Cascadia Independence Project, Hawaiʻi Nation, The Second Maine Militia, The Free State Project, the Republic of New Hampshire, the League of the South, Christian Exodus, the Second Vermont Republic, Texas Secession and the United Republic of Texas. Delegates created a statement of principles of secession which they presented as the Burlington Declaration.[33] The Second North American Secessionist Convention in October, 2007, in Chattanooga, Tennessee received local and national media attention.[34]

Additionally some members of the Lakota people of Montana, Wyoming, Nebraska, and the Dakota region are also making steps to separate from the United States. The self-proclaimed Republic of Lakotah has made a point to say that their actions are not those of secession, but rather an assertion of independence of a nation that was always sovereign and did not join the United States willfully. They note a failure of the United States government in honoring treaties, and abuse of Native peoples throughout its history. A statement of independence was released as of January 2008, and the United States government has not commented on the issue.[35]

Where there's smoke, there's mirrors.
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April 19th, 2009, 08:49
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
A simple question: When a State joined the Union, what were the legal terms employed? Was there provision made for them to leave, or does that not exist anywhere? If leaving is a legal impossibility under the terms of union, then all this discussion is moot.
Texas v. White held that the Union was permanent (as did the outcome of the civil war). Some people try to claim Texas has special circumstances and that it was granted the right to leave the Union if it so chose at a later date (such as Governor Perry), but they're wrong - the Joint Resolution for Annexing Texas to the United States (voted on and approved by Texans, obviously) made no such assurances.
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April 19th, 2009, 18:24
Nice leftie article in the NYT today about the tea party/secession movement logic:
Twitters from Texas

And what about my country, right or wrong? Weren’t there complaints, some from Texan quarters, during the last election that Barack Obama seemed insufficiently up front about his love of country? Isn’t threatening to dissolve the union over the stimulus package a little less American than failure to wear a flag pin?

Remember the time when Michelle Obama said, in a moment she spent an entire campaign trying to take back, that 2008 was the first time she could remember ever feeling really proud of her country? Can you imagine how the conservative base would have reacted if she said that it was the first time she didn’t feel like renouncing her citizenship?

And how, by the way, can you stand at a rally waving the American flag while yelling “Secede”? It’s like an employer handing out “worker of the week” certificates to employees who just learned that he was moving the plant to Mexico.
Just sayin…

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April 19th, 2009, 20:40
Funny It's funny in a makes sense sorta way

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I'm still just a rat in a cage.
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April 19th, 2009, 22:53
Alright, letís get to it:
1st, I voted for Obama and you will never see me criticize him for what he does unless it is directly counter to what he clearly stated while running (i.e. having a transparent administration, saying he is reaching across the aisle and then giving Acorn a shit-ton of taxpayer money). But, Iíd be a liar if I said I voted for Obama because we have the same political views. I voted this way for a couple reasons:

A) We went from Bush vs. Gore to Bush vs. Kerry to Obama vs. f**king McCain. If a Democrat didnít win this election in four years it probably would have been Hugo Chavez vs. Sean Penn as the candidates for US president. And, if my choice is a Democrat vs. a democrat Iíll vote for the one that had enough sense to register with the correct party.

B) The right has no voice. The far left controls the Democrats. The Moderates control the Republicans. I only get to hear the nuts from one side. The far right has no national soapbox or podium. I want shit to be fair and balanced. When I hear some left wing cult member retard say something crazy, I want to hear what Pat Robinson or someone who thinks like him has to say. The left has done a great job at pushing the boundary left, and saying someone mid-right of center is on the far right. This is where the cult members will have a hissy fit and a thick-froth of milky Truth-anger will spread forth from their labiaís and cover them in an impenetrable shield of fanatical ignorance and self-righteousness. They want everyone to believe an equivalent as crazy as slap is to punch as stab is to nuclear war when it comes to who the cult deems to be opposites on the left and right. I want crazy counter-balances. Not cult-skewed rhetoric. The only way to bring things a little evener (to like 75/25 left/right skewed down from 90/10) is to have a democrat in the oval office.

C) Its entertaining

Now, to the fine and exceedingly brilliant folk who want to call me republican/conservative or claim to know my side of the isle, I would like to remind you the old saying of what happens when you make an assumption? I am the most reasonable man alive, and that rules out all the talk of me somehow being fanatical. I truly strive to be apolitical, but fail horribly. And my politics insure no president will ever share my views. Even though everything I say makes sense, no one here will agree with me, because no one is as reasonable as I am. The fact I know my politics have no traction with any population in the world shows I am not and can never be a fanatic. Iíll give some short examples:

Marriage: A marriage is a contract. Any consenting adult can enter into a contract with any other consenting adults. Marriage as any sort of government sanctioned institute is crazy, public or private. If I want to enter into a marriage contract with 118 members of either/both sex no one should have the right to say I canít. I can, because we are all consenting adults, and because f**k you thatís why. You canít reasonably restrict the right of adults to enter contracts over nonsense jibber-jabber. If you want someone to have clearly stated visitation rights if you are hospitalized, put it in the contract.

Abortion: if a woman can create life, she should be able to take it away. Iím all for motherís having the right to abortion until the fetus is 18 years of age. Iím sure that will make everyoneís precious children be less annoying and better behaved. But, in fairness, if a reason a woman can have an abortion is she shouldnít have to pay for the rest of her life for one mistake, letís give guys that option through man-abortions where a man can decide to abort all financial obligations of unwanted children. Its bullsh*t women hold all the rights when it comes to not having to pay for a mistake. What happened to equal protection under the law?

Drugs: there is no reason all drugs shouldnít be legalized. Regardless of the harm and the sob stories, people should have the right to make their own choices of what to put in their bodies. This one canít really stand on its own without going in other issues such as the cost (what about universal healthcare, broken homes, destroyed lives, high employees at work, etc). I could write about it for 20 pages, but I have reasoning for everything and it comes back to legalized drugs in most instances.

I could go on and on. But the fact is Iím from Massachusetts. I was raised and brainwashed to hate republicans. I have been able to reject most of the cult indoctrination of hate my state gratiously programmed into me though. I could never be a Democrat knowing I belonged to a group including all college kids, professors, teachers, actors, ďactivistsí (or business lobbyists as the left calls activists on the right), and other nancy-ass pansy scum. And on the other hand I could never be a republican knowing I sided with hillbillies and people who believe its Halloween everyday and that somehow even though they have no job involving live cows call themselves cowboy/cowgirls. Country folk in general. One thing I am fanatical about is my hate and loathing of country music. Itís unreasonable, and therefore fanatical. It fills me with hate and rage and I have to suppress violent urges.

Whatís today to a cowboy? Halloween. Whatís tomorrow? What was yesterday, whatís ten years from now? Halloween. What kind of f**king moron wears a costume everyday? Cowboys. I see nothing wrong with actually cowboys wearing the attire for the business they work in, but actual cowboys make up like .0009% of the actual people who dress as a cowboy population. Just imagine if a huge segment of the population dressed up as dishwashers who, in fact, were not dishwashers. How is that different? Costume wearing weird-os. I hate how they consider themselves manly and macho when they wear skin tight jeans.
Also, I canít see how or why anyone would live in the red states. Why would someone want to live in savage uncouth nothing uncivilization? ďI like nothing!Ē Even California is a bunch of cowboys and hillbillies that got all pompous and uppity because they put on their Sunday best and sprayed a little perfume. There is some saying I canít remember about dressing up a pig I think would fit here. The only civilized areas of this country are Massachusetts, Rhode Island, New York, New Jersey, and Philidelphia and Chicago (Pennsylvania and Illinois are hillbilly states, and small parts of Florida, some sections of New Orleans and Las Vegas. And outside of Massachusetts and Rhode Island, the civilized areas are filled with 100% idiots like Yankee fans and New Yorkers. I hate that Iíll have to move to Texas and live with a bunch cowboys and hillbillies if it secedes, but freedom from meddling more than worth that price.

Wow, I write a lot. I wonít be able to get into cults today, but let me reply to some stuff real quick. If I donít pay some attention to my wife soon she will beat me.

Our country is actually an interesting mix of socialism and capitalism—medicare, social security, the FDIC, etc, and I happen to think it works out okay, though it needs some work at the moment.
Not to knit-pick, but this rules you out as being a socialist. At best you are a Fellow Traveler.

Back at you.
That smarts!!!!

Fair enough, glad to know the enlisted are cool with secession and treason, once again.
Not wanting to kill countrymen/former-countrymen/non-hostiles and/or deciding not to participate in an attack on them and being cool with secession and treason are different matters. Are you going to go kill Texans? Iím sure many soldiers whoíd hate and would be very angry with Texas if it were to secede and viewed everything as black and white as you and believed as you still wouldnít be willing or able to shoot.

It doesnít work how you think. They donít say go attack Canada and you go and attack Canada. No one is going to fight without reason, no one is going to risk their lives and kill without an explanation. All the poop-meetings for a new conflict start with the justification. Have you ever been shot at? It is very scary. Pulling a trigger is very hard. People wonder how bad shit happens in war. Once bullets are flying at you and youíre going to have to go forward and fight and maybe kill people you donít hate your body and every instinct in you screams, ďNO! Run Away!Ē You have to reach down deep and find something that will get your legs moving forward and some justification to squeeze that trigger (more than being fired upon), and sometimes what you get is something ugly. I feel so bad for the kids who are good people and just donít have it in them, who have to reach down too far and come up with the bile and theyíre f**ked up for life. I envy the people in the past, like in WW2, who were allowed to and fed tons of propaganda for the expressed purpose of to hate the people they killed.
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April 19th, 2009, 23:53
roqua wrote:
A) We went from Bush vs. Gore to Bush vs. Kerry to Obama vs. f**king McCain. If a Democrat didn’t win this election in four years it probably would have been Hugo Chavez vs. Sean Penn as the candidates for US president. And, if my choice is a Democrat vs. a democrat I’ll vote for the one that had enough sense to register with the correct party.
and also
And my politics insure no president will ever share my views. Even though everything I say makes sense, no one here will agree with me, because no one is as reasonable as I am. The fact I know my politics have no traction with any population in the world shows I am not and can never be a fanatic.
I really enjoy it when you make sense and make me laugh at the same time. Great post, roqua. I don't agree with everything you said, but that's fine. (I agree with a lot of it, though. My experiences with motherhood give the idea of retroactive abortion a certain appeal, even.As a fantasy, but still…)

On this point:
I could go on and on. But the fact is I’m from Massachusetts. I was raised and brainwashed to hate republicans. I have been able to reject most of the cult indoctrination of hate my state gratiously programmed into me though. I could never be a Democrat knowing I belonged to a group including all college kids, professors, teachers, actors, “activists’ (or business lobbyists as the left calls activists on the right), and other nancy-ass pansy scum. And on the other hand I could never be a republican knowing I sided with hillbillies and people who believe its Halloween everyday and that somehow even though they have no job involving live cows call themselves cowboy/cowgirls. Country folk in general. One thing I am fanatical about is my hate and loathing of country music. It’s unreasonable, and therefore fanatical. It fills me with hate and rage and I have to suppress violent urges.
I notice I've actually become far more liberal now that I live in a really red state, only one that is too corrupt to articulate something like secession because even though they hate the gummint they need the defense and ag subsidies. There are a lot of things i like about living here, but politics isn't one of them. Seriously, I grew up a Chicago democrat, but that means knowing your party is completely corrupt, therefore nobody takes the left-wing activist nobility spiel as anything but a tool to control the unwashed masses. I became an independent because I decided both parties were full of it and therefor you have to cherry pick between them to find anyone with a brain.
Here, being surrounded by ultra-right whack jobs who think Tom Coburn is too liberal has made me much more sensitive to getting ticked off by the right than I was when I was surrounded by liberals (Then they often used to make me tired.)
I still like country music of the pre-Toby Keith era though if someone is buying the beer.

…snip…I envy the people in the past, like in WW2, who were allowed to and fed tons of propaganda for the expressed purpose of to hate the people they killed.
Thanks for the honest assessment—I've heard the same from my husband(VietNam) when he very rarely dredges this stuff up and talks about it. I agree that life is simpler when you can believe you are the good guy and the other guy is the agent of evil, and that's what the rhetoric of war has always tried to do for those who have to fight. If you can't think that way and see the humanity of your opponent instead, your job becomes soulkillingly difficult and scrambles your brains. I'm going to stop now before I trivialize an experience I can never come close to truly understanding.

Once again, good to have you back.

Where there's smoke, there's mirrors.
Last edited by magerette; April 20th, 2009 at 00:08.
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April 19th, 2009, 23:54
You do realise that the reason they don't say go and attack Canada is that A), in the only war ever fought between the 2 countries (1812 I think) Canada WON, and B) all the soldiers would like the place so much they'd surrender, or claim refugee status, or something similar!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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