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Default Another earth-shattering KABOOM from North Korea

May 25th, 2009, 18:25
This remind me of the discussion in another thread, whatever to invade north korea or not, we ended up with "the losses would be too heavy to make it worthwile", another option would be to make it into a parking place, but that would be a lot of people mislead by a crazy leader who would suffer. I tell you onething though (this is directed especially at you PJ ) leave a crazy man in charge and give him a lot of power is the most dangerous thing you could ever do. if nothing else history lessons proves this very well. (That's also a thing about Iraq and saddam…….. )

I don't doubt north Korea would launch at US if they could.

Perhaps the idea of a combined effort to invade and dethrone the leader of north korea was not entirely displaced, given the disaster it would be if they launched a nuclear bomb, even if it failed it could cause massive destruction, and who knows they might target S.Korea that would be very near. Now it might already be too late though, if someone tried to invade they might already have a bomb they would launch at any sign of attack.

As for solutions, if diplomacy and sanctions (by China too)
I am not so sure china is so keen on that, after all the communist states sticks togheter and they might not be entirely "uncomfortable" with a threat to the US neither.

Kim Jong Il is extremely corrupt, and it's at least conceivable that the entire Communist Party elite could just be bought off.
Offer what? we will give you a unlimited amount of money if you leave north korea ? he could already get everything he wants, and his people is doing anything for him? it is not the leaders which lack luxury just all the people.
Last edited by GothicGothicness; May 25th, 2009 at 18:56.
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May 25th, 2009, 18:29
Originally Posted by Rithrandil View Post
.. What you're saying is about as accurate as me saying my fellow Republicans hate poor people and want to use them as fuel in their evil greedy corporate furnaces to pollute the sky and turn it black, because they are all evil bloodsucking vampires and can't stand the sun's rays.
You mean they aren't???

Seriously, on the brainwashing, GothicGothicness posted some links in another thread about a documentary maker who'd somehow gained access to the place—they were totally chilling. I remember one thing he said—the country is culturally and technologically still in the 1950's in terms of what people know about—or are allowed to know about, I guess. They have no frame of reference for a lot of things we consider commonplace. And I think that blog post of Surlent's is totally on the level.

It makes Orwell look like a master of understatement.

Edit: hi, GG—didn't see your post. I know you remember what I'm talking about,though.

Where there's smoke, there's mirrors.
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May 25th, 2009, 18:33
Thanks for the quick surveys on DPRK's situation.
Originally Posted by Rithrandil View Post
It's possible, but they've already passed the dictatorship through one generation. Kim Il Sung gave it to Kim Jong Il on his death. Kim Il Sung is still offically the "Great Leader" and the Eternal President of the DPRK, by the way.
Hmm, that's a bit more worrisome then. Usually these dictators can hold their empire only for their own lifetime. I quickly read an wikipedia entry on Kim Jong-il and it seems he has several children.
Originally Posted by pj
One thing that could be tried is bribery — Kim Jong Il is extremely corrupt, and it's at least conceivable that the entire Communist Party elite could just be bought off.
Heh, that's a clever idea. But what kind of bribe could make a dictator interested when he has total control over his own country?

Edit: spelling.
Last edited by Surlent; May 25th, 2009 at 20:10.
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May 25th, 2009, 18:34
Edit: hi, GG—didn't see your post. I know you remember what I'm talking about,though.
Yes, in the very same documentary you could see how all the people are teached to hate US, and how proud they are for having shot down one US ship in the 50's.

It's possible, but they've already passed the dictatorship through one generation. Kim Il Sung gave it to Kim Jong Il on his death. Kim Il Sung is still offically the "Great Leader" and the Eternal President of the DPRK, by the way.
Yes, he "will never die", how can people know whatever someone is dead or not? if they are told he is the great leader and he cannot die ? you could watch the documentary mag. mentioned and see….

Heh, that's a clever idea. But what kind of bride could make a dictator interested when he has total control over his own country?
Yes, on top of what we already said ,another thing in North Korea, which is truly sickening is that if the leader would like a young girl , younng boy, or anything else for that matter it is all his to take. The kind of hosting he had when he invited some special people he liked would be considered quite sick even by brothel standard.
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May 25th, 2009, 18:41
GG: I've seen a few documentaries on that bizarro country, but I'm not sure I've seen the one Mag is talking about. Do you have the title?

I'll do a Mudsling and post a youtube link. Even if I cant tell if that songun fellow is for real or not the slogans are genuine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp7RkdvyDDI
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May 25th, 2009, 18:45
The Vice Guide to North Korea:

http://www.vbs.tv/shows/north-korea/

One thing that could be tried is bribery — Kim Jong Il is extremely corrupt, and it's at least conceivable that the entire Communist Party elite could just be bought off.
Heh, that's a clever idea. But what kind of bride could make a dictator interested when he has total control over his own country?
Yes, on top of what we already said ,another thing in North Korea, which is truly sickening is that if the leader would like a young girl , younng boy, or anything else for that matter it is all his to take. The kind of hosting he had when he invited some special people he liked would be considered quite sick even by brothel standard.
Hmm, that togheter with team america gives me a crazy enough idea, what if you train a gang of young very pretty north korean looking, korean speaking girls into assassins and have them take out as many of the communist luxury leader members as they could ? never underestimate the power of pretty GIRLS! would avoid a lot of killing and warring too….
Last edited by GothicGothicness; May 25th, 2009 at 19:21.
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May 25th, 2009, 19:32
Originally Posted by GothicGothicness View Post
I don't doubt north Korea would launch at US if they could.
That would get every population center in the country nuked. Why would they bring that on themselves?
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May 25th, 2009, 19:46
That's the thing, no sane normal person would ever do that, a US hating lunatic might very well, he already showed he does not care for his own people. You cannot think in a logical and sensible way about such a person, especially not one who consider himself as having god like status, he might even believe that he would somehow survive since after all he has god status, otherwise he could have achieved the greatest thing in the history of the world ( in his sick and twisted thinking ) and that is worth sacrificing for!

Look at history of crazy leaders with limitless power, many of them went on hopeless conquests, suicide missions, or even burning down their own migty city ( Nero comes to mind )
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May 25th, 2009, 19:52
But he does care about himself. As do the people he surrounds himself with.

Anyway, what would you do about it? Frankly, I think your idea of sending cute Korean girl assassins to off him is a bit… unpractical. But then I haven't heard that many better ideas either…
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May 25th, 2009, 20:25
But he does care about himself. As do the people he surrounds himself with.
Yes IF they even have the sense to think in the way you do. On the other hand if his health condition is poor, could you think of any better way to go out? you have to remmember these people were brainwashed since birth to serve and to know kji is the only great and life purpose is to serve him as best you could + I am not even sure if they KNOW US could bomb them out in a heartbeat, certainly there are some who know, but I think many does not.

Anyway, what would you do about it? Frankly, I think your idea of sending cute Korean girl assassins to off him is a bit… unpractical. But then I haven't heard that many better ideas either…
Acctually this might be the best idea I could come up with (althought it need modification ), if you don't want the parking space or full out war option you have to infiltrate somehow. The girls idea have worked before many times in history, the greatest weakness of many great leaders was women ( Acctually North Korea used it with great success in South Korea, they sent a pretty woman to sleep with some of the top names in S. Korea politics, she got quite a bit of useful info before she was found out ). Bribery might be an option, but in that case in my opinion in a different way, you have to try to bribe slightly lower people, these ones below the top who have some power and control, but not big enough to get all the luxury benefit. Try to start resistance etc etc, but now it might very well be too late ( the country has so strict control and so closed ) + the level of brainwashing in that country is insanely high. Trust me I KNOW the power of brainwashing, it is scary how well it worked on chinese, and china is doing it MUCH MUCH less than North Korea, and is MUCH MUCH more open.

If you watch the documentary you might acctually understand how the people there think of their leader. Can you imagine 100 000's of people are excercising everyday, almost every hour just to make the greatest show ever seen in tribute to one person.
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May 25th, 2009, 20:42
Originally Posted by Prime Junta View Post
That would get every population center in the country nuked. Why would they bring that on themselves?
Because, as you mentioned, they're not a "sane state".


Further proof that we should be afraid…..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0hk9vaqWUg
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May 25th, 2009, 20:50
That doesn't mean they're suicidal, though. To my knowledge, no country in the history of humanity has started a war knowing that they were going to be annihilated. You could argue that the DPRK leadership is delusional enough to believe they could survive a nuclear exchange with the US, but I think that's… unlikely. They may be mad, but there is method to their madness.

And even so, again, what would your solution be? (FWIW, I don't think assassinating KJI would solve the problems; it's in fact quite likely that he's incapacitated already.)
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May 25th, 2009, 21:03
Originally Posted by Prime Junta View Post
it's in fact quite likely that he's incapacitated already.)
Or even possibly dead, as some sources have speculated.
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May 25th, 2009, 21:44
That doesn't mean they're suicidal, though. To my knowledge, no country in the history of humanity has started a war knowing that they were going to be annihilated. You could argue that the DPRK leadership is delusional enough to believe they could survive a nuclear exchange with the US, but I think that's… unlikely. They may be mad, but there is method to their madness.
If you are right, that they would not be mad enough to use it, the solution is very easy, and it would be to do nothing. If they would nuke S.Korea or another country it would have the same effect more or less as nuking US ( and I think if they would want to nuke anything that would be US ). So if they are not crazy enough to use it, we could just do nothing. Of course another risk is that they would have some accidents in their trials, which could also cause massive negative effects.

I for one am not brave enough to gamble that they are not, it might not be to start a war, it would just be a kind of revenge, who knows how these insane leaders think. History is full of people which did things which would undoubtly lead to their own death, terrorists are doing it now everyday. I would not put it beyond the craziness which is north Korea media to prepare an article like, KJI took flight and launched himself in a firey inferno towards the big evil which is US, upon landing he caused great destruction and our leader will go on living forever, you can give your tribute to him at this statue….

(FWIW, I don't think assassinating KJI would solve the problems; it's in fact quite likely that he's incapacitated already.)
I agree, I wounder what effect it would have to bomb some main military target and gouverment buildings, could you weaken it enough to make a change? on the other hand now that might result in a big fat nuke on someone.

If you are going to infiltrate, you first have to collect enough info to know who are the big men of power, start to bribe the lower ones, and in one hit take out all the big ones and have the lower bribed ones move in. It takes time, but collecting as much intel. as possible before deciding the next step ( girls, servants etc is really not a bad option for this ) they could also access the situation and the amount of craziness, just what are they willing / planning to do. I am also sure some countries have some intel. and spies in N.Korea which we don't know about. So probably the decision makers has more intel. than us.
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May 25th, 2009, 23:29
@GothicGothicness: I imagine it is very difficult to take out everyone in N. Korea with the power to launch a counterstrike against S. Korea in one fell swoop. This is their insurance against attack, and as far as I can tell, it is pretty solid. As it is now, and I do not believe that this will change, the N. Korean people are the only ones suffering directly — add to that people suffering indirectly from their weapons technology sold to the highest bidder. Launch a strike, and you most likely have millions of people in S. Korea on your conscience.

Also, there is no opposition inside the country which could rally the people to their cause under any circumstance. This is the primary ingredient to a revolution — and incidentally also to a successful invasion — and it is simply missing, due to their extremely efficient propaganda machinery. If the population had access to outside information, this might gradually change, but information is tightly controlled.

A revolution from the top is unlikely as long as high officials and their families profit from exploiting the population. And even if their personal comfort should start to diminish, they will be extremely afraid of prosecution either by international law or by the successor government should their system ever collapse. Money will not be enough to bribe them into relinquishing power.

I am really sympathetic to your point of view, GG, because I hate to see the people there suffer, and I would like to see a way out that does not involve massive "collateral damage", but unfortunately I am really at a loss on that one. I would not know what to do even if I were in a position of political power. Aside, of course, from containing the threat of nuclear proliferation as much as possible and preventing the people from starving to death. I guess this is more than to "do nothing", but much less than one would hope to achieve.
Last edited by coyote; May 25th, 2009 at 23:40.
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May 26th, 2009, 00:01
I'd like to point out that as far as we know Kim Jong Il could be completely sane. Nixon had his people spread rumors about him being insane or unstable or prone to murderous rage to make the Soviets more likely to cave to his demands.
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May 26th, 2009, 03:13
Good point, brinkmanship describes the North Korean strategy rather well.
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May 26th, 2009, 06:51
Originally Posted by GothicGothicness View Post
I for one am not brave enough to gamble that they are not, it might not be to start a war, it would just be a kind of revenge, who knows how these insane leaders think.
Then what's your alternative?

History is full of people which did things which would undoubtly lead to their own death, terrorists are doing it now everyday.
But countries don't. Can you name a single example in all of human history of a country *starting* a war it knows in advance will result in its destruction? I'm not saying it can't happen, mind; I'm saying it's a highly unlikely event.

I agree, I wounder what effect it would have to bomb some main military target and gouverment buildings, could you weaken it enough to make a change? on the other hand now that might result in a big fat nuke on someone.
No big mystery there. It would be an act of war. Countries respond to acts of war with other acts of war. I don't think the DPRK has a fully weaponized nuke yet (i.e, something they could put on a missile or even fit in one of their little aircraft), but they have a lot of other hardware. If it was as easy as bombing the governmental palace in Pyongyang, I'd be all for it — and, more to the point, someone would already have done it. But it isn't.

If you are going to infiltrate, you first have to collect enough info to know who are the big men of power, start to bribe the lower ones, and in one hit take out all the big ones and have the lower bribed ones move in.
Sorry, GG — but this is pure fantasy. If this sort of thing worked, world history would look very, very different from the bloody mess that it is now. Assassinating leaders is very, very hard; assassinating entire groups of leaders in one fell swoop is… impossible.

It takes time, but collecting as much intel. as possible before deciding the next step ( girls, servants etc is really not a bad option for this ) they could also access the situation and the amount of craziness, just what are they willing / planning to do. I am also sure some countries have some intel. and spies in N.Korea which we don't know about. So probably the decision makers has more intel. than us.
Yeah, intel would be nice. But that won't solve the problem either.
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May 26th, 2009, 06:58
Simply put: there is a military option with regards to the DPRK. It involves total nuclear war, starting with a massive first strike on all military infrastructure in the country, much of which is embedded in population centers. Millions would die. Anything much less than that is unlikely to work, and is likely to result in counterstrikes on South Korean and Japanese population centers causing mass casualties there.

It may eventually come to that — if, for example, the DPRK used its nuclear weapons first — but I believe that it should be the last of the last resorts, something that should only be used if it becomes a choice between mass civilian casualties on their side and mass civilian casualties on ours. I definitely do not believe that simply possessing nuclear weapons justifies that kind of action.
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May 26th, 2009, 10:10
Originally Posted by GothicGothicness View Post
Look at history of crazy leaders with limitless power, many of them went on hopeless conquests, suicide missions, or even burning down their own migty city ( Nero comes to mind )
Urban legend. AFAIK there is a consensus among modern historians that he tried hard to stop the fire…

Outright suicidal leaders with a total disregard for personal comfort are extremely rare, even among the demented ones.

Military action against NK is anyway off the table as they even before this nuke quite literally have a few thousand guns pointed at the capital of a western ally…

And lastly Rith is right, this could be a rational course of action from their point of view. Provocations and blackmailing has more often than not caused the outside world to offer conciliatory gestures and more aid in the last 20 years. They might well know that the rest of the world doesnt really have any acceptable options in dealing with them.
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