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Default Right to Life, Right to Murder

June 6th, 2009, 21:01
Originally Posted by Oxlar View Post
Oh give me a break. Reporting the news is not incitement to murder. The guy murdered over 60,000 babies and made millions off of it. It is worthy news to report.
To quote another forum: Let's just do a little back of the envelope calculation. The man lived about 68 years. To do 60,000 late term abortions in his lifetime he'd have to perform 882 per year starting at birth.

Does this sound realistic to you? It sounds sufficiently suspect for me to want a reference on that statistic.

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June 6th, 2009, 22:16
Originally Posted by magerette View Post
The pro-life movement will never gain my full respect until they put as much time and effort and slogan-slinging into improving the lives of fetuses after they leave the womb, rather than saving them so they can be brought up by women who wanted to kill them, fathers who aren't there, and a society that feels they're disposable.
Well, they're a specialized organization, just as some pro-choice groups focus only on the abortion issue. This isn't to say that they don't also support other groups that do help people. There are many groups that presumably don't support or are adamantly against abortion. The Salvation Army and Catholic Charities are just two that I would say do excellent work while opposing abortion. When I was with the United Way, I was amazed at how these groups would all work with each other or at least through us. So we'd deal with the ACLU, Salvation Army, Unitarians, Red Cross, as well as various other secular agencies and churches, each one would mingle with the other at times. It really showed me that there are good folks in all walks of life and that they can get along.

So, as an example you have The Salvation Army feeding and clothing you while the Red Cross helps with you cope with your home being destroyed all the while, the ACLU defends your rights.

I realize I just got off track…

As long as sex causes pregnancy, there will always be unwanted children. Having been one, I can say it's not all sunshine and light and little pink baby clothes to be born to someone who really really wishes you weren't there. Also, desperate women will do desperate things if abortion is illegal or impossible to access. (Would I rather not have lived, you ask? I can't see how I would have minded if I hadn't been born, and there were many times it would have been infinitely preferable.)
I don't like abortion, but I don't see any other way. I do think it is not used the way it is intended and that the women that it was designed for, don't seem to use it anyway. Again, I don't think this means it should be made illegal, but when you hear stories such as the guy that fathered 21 kids while having a minimal payment job, it does make you wonder what goes through the minds of some women and how some men can be so retarded.

How many activists like this ask themselves, what are they saving these babies for? How many would donate time or money to help raise them and keep them from being abused, off the streets and out of jail?
Well, as I said above, I think many of them probably do do good things. Also, as I said before, I think they believe that the children growing up at least have choices of their own. In their eyes, these unborn children that are being aborted have no choice.

Originally Posted by Prime Junta
I also find it an interesting contradiction that many of the same people who argue for a "right to life" are also proponents of the death penalty.
I'm sure they see the difference between a child and a convicted killer. I'm against the death penalty, though at times I'm so outraged by certain crimes that I suddenly shift, but deep down I don't see us having the right. Still, I see a major difference between unborn children and felons and yes I know that some have been proven innocent.
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June 6th, 2009, 23:37
Originally Posted by Ubereil View Post
To quote another forum: Let's just do a little back of the envelope calculation. The man lived about 68 years. To do 60,000 late term abortions in his lifetime he'd have to perform 882 per year starting at birth.

Does this sound realistic to you? It sounds sufficiently suspect for me to want a reference on that statistic.

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Thats just the number that I've seen in the news. Does 30,000 make the pill go down easier? No? Maybe 20,000?
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June 6th, 2009, 23:55
Originally Posted by Ubereil View Post
To quote another forum: Let's just do a little back of the envelope calculation. The man lived about 68 years. To do 60,000 late term abortions in his lifetime he'd have to perform 882 per year starting at birth.

Does this sound realistic to you? It sounds sufficiently suspect for me to want a reference on that statistic.

Übereil
As far as I can tell those numbers were extended out from numbers he once provided as a presenter at a medical conference. But I wasn't able to find an active link directly to any record of that. So I'd call that a guess, but supposedly an educated one.

The state of Kansas publishes abortion numbers, and they're surprisingly high. They don't match numbers directly to individual doctors, but if Tiller really was the only one in the state who performed late term abortions (as his foes claim), then he averaged 493 late-term abortions per year over the past decade. Late-term account for only a very-small fraction of the total performed each year but may have been the focus of his practice, depending on whose story you believe.

Until he was murdered I had never heard of Tiller or the big campaign against him. Reading search results about all this seemed almost surreal and I have to say fealt a little creepy.

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June 7th, 2009, 01:16
Originally Posted by Oxlar View Post
Oh give me a break. Reporting the news is not incitement to murder. The guy murdered over 60,000 babies and made millions off of it. It is worthy news to report.

I don't condone what the actions of the nut job who murdered tiller. But the guy is far from the civil rights hero that a lot of the media is trying to paint him as.
Well, you're also assuming it's murder - which about half the country disagrees with - not to mention that legally, it's not murder.
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June 7th, 2009, 01:18
Originally Posted by Oxlar View Post
Agreed, that whole argument that pro lifers don't care about life after being born is weak and just a 'talking point'.
My point was mainly to separate the death penalty issue and the abortion issue. I think pro-life groups aren't realistic in general, and don't pay attention to what happens after birth. They should be creating good foster care and adoption programs. Additionally, they should let homosexuals adopt if they are otherwise qualified, and give kids a good home.

It seems the pro-life community doesn't want to deal with the aftermath of what their stance on abortion causes.
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June 7th, 2009, 07:43
Originally Posted by Rithrandil View Post
My point was mainly to separate the death penalty issue and the abortion issue. I think pro-life groups aren't realistic in general, and don't pay attention to what happens after birth. They should be creating good foster care and adoption programs. Additionally, they should let homosexuals adopt if they are otherwise qualified, and give kids a good home.

It seems the pro-life community doesn't want to deal with the aftermath of what their stance on abortion causes.
I think that the church community, which is mostly thought of as being pro life, does more charity than you give them credit for. Every church I've ever been a part of has had tons and tons of outreach programs to help those in need.
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June 7th, 2009, 07:52
Originally Posted by Rithrandil View Post
Well, you're also assuming it's murder - which about half the country disagrees with - not to mention that legally, it's not murder.
Considering my wife is 7 and 1/2 months pregnant right now, I'd say I've got a relevant view on the subject. I can't imagine any possible way that an abortion at this stage would not equate to murder. While you can make a case for extreme examples where the life of the baby would be hardly worth living, but then you might as well call it a mercy killing. However, there have been reports that a lot of the late term abortions were done for a wide variety of reasons, some that really stretch the limits of acceptability.

As far as the legal thing, I thought thats only in a handful of states at this stage. I could be wrong, but thats the impression I had gotten.
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June 7th, 2009, 07:59
Originally Posted by Oxlar View Post
Considering my wife is 7 and 1/2 months pregnant right now, I'd say I've got a relevant view on the subject.
Everyone's view is relevant. Yours no less than anyone else's. No more either, though: having a pregnant wife doesn't make you an expert on abortion politics any more than being a REALTOR(tm) makes you an expert on economics.

I can't imagine any possible way that an abortion at this stage would not equate to murder.
Have you ever wondered why a woman would seek a late-term abortion?

Have you ever tried to find out?

Why do you think that the law does not equate abortion with murder?

How do you think laws and practices should be changed in the US?

What do you think of PETA's and Earth First's campaigns against fur farmers? In what way are they different from the anti-choice movement's campaign against Dr. Tiller?

While you can make a case for extreme examples where the life of the baby would be hardly worth living, but then you might as well call it a mercy killing. However, there have been reports that a lot of the late term abortions were done for a wide variety of reasons, some that really stretch the limits of acceptability.
Good thing that you've already established the credibility of the "reports" you've been reading, eh?

As far as the legal thing, I thought thats only in a handful of states at this stage. I could be wrong, but thats the impression I had gotten.
You know, you *could* look these things up. It's not hard, and if you did that, you'd be far less vulnerable to being manipulated.
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June 7th, 2009, 08:03
Originally Posted by Oxlar View Post
Considering my wife is 7 and 1/2 months pregnant right now, I'd say I've got a relevant view on the subject. I can't imagine any possible way that an abortion at this stage would not equate to murder. While you can make a case for extreme examples where the life of the baby would be hardly worth living, but then you might as well call it a mercy killing. However, there have been reports that a lot of the late term abortions were done for a wide variety of reasons, some that really stretch the limits of acceptability.

As far as the legal thing, I thought thats only in a handful of states at this stage. I could be wrong, but thats the impression I had gotten.
If you don't mind me asking, is it a girl or a boy?

I myself, have two nephews and even though I don't think I'm really for having children myself, they are fun. It's even better being an uncle since you can always give the kids back when they have an accident though I have been suckered into changing a diaper or two.
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June 7th, 2009, 08:12
I've said it before and I'll say it again; being a parent changes you. Abortion is academic until you either are one, or are in the process of becoming one. (a parent) While I respect the right of people to have an opinion (no matter how wrong it might be ) I consider the opinion of 'parents' in some areas, such as this, to be more relevant. PJ, hurry up and have some kids with your lovely wife so you can finally agree with me on something!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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June 7th, 2009, 08:14
It's possible (although at this point not certain) that we may not be able to. We have been looking into adoption options, though.
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June 7th, 2009, 08:17
Sorry to hear you may not be able to have your own children; Somehow I actually think you'd make an excellent father!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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June 7th, 2009, 08:45
Originally Posted by Oxlar View Post
Thats just the number that I've seen in the news. Does 30,000 make the pill go down easier? No? Maybe 20,000?
Looks to me like you're watching the wrong news.

Originally Posted by Squeek View Post
The state of Kansas publishes abortion numbers, and they're surprisingly high. They don't match numbers directly to individual doctors, but if Tiller really was the only one in the state who performed late term abortions (as his foes claim), then he averaged 493 late-term abortions per year over the past decade. Late-term account for only a very-small fraction of the total performed each year but may have been the focus of his practice, depending on whose story you believe.
That's half of the 882 abortions he'd have had to preform since birth to get to the 60 000 abortions reported.

And for the record, what constitutes late-term in this case?

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June 7th, 2009, 09:11
Originally Posted by Prime Junta View Post
Everyone's view is relevant. Yours no less than anyone else's. No more either, though: having a pregnant wife doesn't make you an expert on abortion politics any more than being a REALTOR(tm) makes you an expert on economics.
Pardon me while I roll my eyes and stand in line with most parents or pregnant women who would disagree with that statement. I also never said it makes me an expert. I said the subject is more relevant to someone like me. Relevant as in meaning I can better relate to the issue because I'm actually going through something where that is a very significant and real subject.

I have a lot of health issues. My wife is in her late 30's. We are at a significantly higher risk for pregnancy problems. We have wrestled with the possible outcome of escalated ratios for genetic problems via testing. Some tests we decided not to get because we felt that it just wouldn't make the difference whether or not we would abort. But we had to deal with the reality of making that decision. Hence, it is more relevant to me than someone like yourself.

Nice to see you can't seem to get away from the personal digs with the Realtor thing. Give it a rest, your attempts at patronizing me are starting to look sad.


Originally Posted by Prime Junta View Post
Have you ever wondered why a woman would seek a late-term abortion?

Have you ever tried to find out?

Why do you think that the law does not equate abortion with murder?

How do you think laws and practices should be changed in the US?

What do you think of PETA's and Earth First's campaigns against fur farmers? In what way are they different from the anti-choice movement's campaign against Dr. Tiller?
You done yet Andy Rooney?

Originally Posted by Prime Junta View Post
Good thing that you've already established the credibility of the "reports" you've been reading, eh?

You know, you *could* look these things up. It's not hard, and if you did that, you'd be far less vulnerable to being manipulated.

There simply is not enough time in one day to research everything I hear or read in this world. Nor do I have the desire to reduce my life down to such a level of boring drivel. I pay attention way more than the average bear. 90% of my country get their news from sources like John Stewart, Colbert, The Tonight Show, Saturday Night Live, or MSN home page. Which is why America is Failing in every way.
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June 7th, 2009, 09:17
Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
If you don't mind me asking, is it a girl or a boy?

I myself, have two nephews and even though I don't think I'm really for having children myself, they are fun. It's even better being an uncle since you can always give the kids back when they have an accident though I have been suckered into changing a diaper or two.
Its a girl. Thats what we were both hoping for.

My wife and I never really wanted to have children. But my health has left me worried for my wife is something happens to me. I think she suddenly felt her clock ticking and all of a sudden her friends were all getting pregnant. I changed my mind on the subject because I wanted her to have a part of me with her if something happened with me and my health.
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June 7th, 2009, 09:19
Originally Posted by Oxlar View Post
Pardon me while I roll my eyes and stand in line with most parents or pregnant women who would disagree with that statement. I also never said it makes me an expert. I said the subject is more relevant to someone like me. Relevant as in meaning I can better relate to the issue because I'm actually going through something where that is a very significant and real subject.

I have a lot of health issues. My wife is in her late 30's. We are at a significantly higher risk for pregnancy problems. We have wrestled with the possible outcome of escalated ratios for genetic problems via testing. Some tests we decided not to get because we felt that it just wouldn't make the difference whether or not we would abort. But we had to deal with the reality of making that decision. Hence, it is more relevant to me than someone like yourself.
That's completely different, and it does, indeed, make the question more relevant to you.

You done yet Andy Rooney?
Who's Andy Rooney?

I notice you didn't answer any of the questions. Not big surprise there; these questions are hard, and thinking about them takes an effort.

There simply is not enough time in one day to research everything I hear or read in this world.
Indeed. I don't research everything I hear or read either. However, I do research things that matter to me. If I haven't had the time or inclination to research something, I also don't have a strong opinion about it. Having strong opinions without making sure that they're grounded in facts and solid arguments strikes me as lazy and stupid.

Nor do I have the desire to reduce my life down to such a level of boring drivel. I pay attention way more than the average bear. 90% of my country get their news from sources like John Stewart, Colbert, The Tonight Show, Saturday Night Live, or MSN home page. Which is why America is Failing in every way.
You've already demonstrated, and now straight-out admitted, that you get your opinions exactly the same way — you just have different spoon-feeders. The only way around that is to get off your lazy ass and do some independent thinking and fact-checking; otherwise you're just a sheep being led around on a leash. It's entirely your prerogative to choose to be a sheep, but don't expect people who aren't sheep to take those second-hand opinions of yours very seriously.
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June 7th, 2009, 10:05
Originally Posted by Prime Junta View Post
Who's Andy Rooney?

I notice you didn't answer any of the questions. Not big surprise there; these questions are hard, and thinking about them takes an effort.
60 minutes, who is reknowned for asking annoying questions. I've got no desire to let you lead some charge of persecution while playing 20 questions. I know your debate method. It consists of attacking someone non stop and keeping them on the defense. I'm not playing your games anymore, nor will I allow you to bait me into such exchanges.


Originally Posted by Prime Junta View Post
Indeed. I don't research everything I hear or read either. However, I do research things that matter to me. If I haven't had the time or inclination to research something, I also don't have a strong opinion about it. Having strong opinions without making sure that they're grounded in facts and solid arguments strikes me as lazy and stupid.

You've already demonstrated, and now straight-out admitted, that you get your opinions exactly the same way — you just have different spoon-feeders. The only way around that is to get off your lazy ass and do some independent thinking and fact-checking; otherwise you're just a sheep being led around on a leash. It's entirely your prerogative to choose to be a sheep, but don't expect people who aren't sheep to take those second-hand opinions of yours very seriously.
Please, enough with the sanctimonious elitist attitude. I really am tired of it. In this episode of PJ's insults, I am:

Lazy
Stupid
Sheep

Tune in next post to find out what I'm equated to.
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June 7th, 2009, 10:40
Originally Posted by Oxlar View Post
60 minutes, who is reknowned for asking annoying questions. I've got no desire to let you lead some charge of persecution while playing 20 questions. I know your debate method. It consists of attacking someone non stop and keeping them on the defense. I'm not playing your games anymore, nor will I allow you to bait me into such exchanges.
That's right — run, little bunny.

Originally Posted by Oxlar View Post
Please, enough with the sanctimonious elitist attitude. I really am tired of it. In this episode of PJ's insults, I am:

Lazy
Stupid
Sheep

Tune in next post to find out what I'm equated to.
If you have strong opinions but aren't able or willing to do the work to check if they're well grounded in argument and experience, then, yes, I think you're lazy and/or stupid. And if you mechanically repeat opinions spoon-fed to you by your political masters, then, yes, I think you're a sheep.

If the shoe fits…
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June 7th, 2009, 12:45
Originally Posted by Oxlar View Post
I think that the church community, which is mostly thought of as being pro life, does more charity than you give them credit for. Every church I've ever been a part of has had tons and tons of outreach programs to help those in need.
I have little respect for most church communities, having been part of several.
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