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Default Does Extremist Media Inspire Violence or Curb It?

June 22nd, 2009, 22:54
What photo was this? I've not heard of this incident.
It was an unspeakable pedo photo , i banned someone for posting it in my irc channel , this was at the end of 2008 , the url can be found in Australia's "black list" but i am not advising you to see it


Well, society judges. Societal norms determine what is 'average' and what is 'extreme'. If you think going to work is 'extreme' you're clearly in the minority - since virtually everyone owns a car/has a family/goes to work - hence the 'extreme' (and I'd also ask how you make money or survive, then). You can disagree with the judgment of society or not, but that's how the world works.
What society determines is the level of hypocrisy , just look on political sex scandals , money laundry , "rent a senator" policy of the USA or "send any retard to ask for cash" in Europe , we are all extremists role playing "normals" the only difference is that very few will openly accept it.

I have done many many jobs from highly profiled ones to controversial and despised, currently i am sysadmin in medium size business .
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June 22nd, 2009, 23:09
Originally Posted by Tragos View Post
It was an unspeakable pedo photo , i banned someone for posting it in my irc channel , this was at the end of 2008 , the url can be found in Australia's "black list" but i am not advising you to see it
Ah. Yeah, I wouldn't look it up. Let's just say that I would … end any pedophile I ever ran across.

Originally Posted by Tragos View Post
What society determines is the level of hypocrisy , just look on political sex scandals , money laundry , "rent a senator" policy of the USA or "send any retard to ask for cash" in Europe , we are all extremists role playing "normals" the only difference is that very few will openly accept it.
No disagreements. But society determines norms and extremes. I don't like a lot of what they determine myself. But unfortunately the only way society 'works' is if we all act in a very specific narrow way. I don't think it is possible for the human race to operate any other way. Should we expunge corruption, etc like you say? Definitely. I sometimes think fondly upon China's penalty of death for extreme corruption from government officials, heh. I wouldn't go that far, but I think all government officials and politicians should be above reproach. I'd increase the penalties for any crime they commit while in office by a significant amount. Maybe double or triple any prison sentences or fines, etc.
Originally Posted by Tragos View Post
I have done many many jobs from highly profiled ones to controversial and despised, currently i am sysadmin in medium size business .
Very nice. It does suck having to live in these norms, no? There are things I'd much rather do then have to pay bills or earn a living, but unfortunately I don't see any way around it without everyone starving to death. I do think we need to take a good, long look at what we consider 'acceptable', though.
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June 22nd, 2009, 23:51
Originally Posted by Rithrandil View Post
No disagreements. But society determines norms and extremes. I don't like a lot of what they determine myself. But unfortunately the only way society 'works' is if we all act in a very specific narrow way. I don't think it is possible for the human race to operate any other way. Should we expunge corruption, etc like you say? Definitely. I sometimes think fondly upon China's penalty of death for extreme corruption from government officials, heh. I wouldn't go that far, but I think all government officials and politicians should be above reproach. I'd increase the penalties for any crime they commit while in office by a significant amount. Maybe double or triple any prison sentences or fines, etc.
This can open a big debate and it will look like hijacking OP's thread.
Let's just say that IMHO society is a liquid , as Marx said thesis and antithesis create a new thesis , you can not have social evolution without "extremists" and philosophically speaking mankind's scope is to return back in paradise so definitely conservatism is not the way .
Our ways of behaving are always okay within our moral limits both social and personal , 2.500 years ago in the place i live (Athens , Greece) pederasty was socially accepted , Plato was free to preach his stinking Nazi ideas and Socrates was executed for being loyal to his visions ; now government corruption , invisible WMDs , torture and bombing of civilians is okay when posting 2 lines in a forum as stupid as stormfront is considered "inspiring violence" .
Our societies are not narrow , they are thirsty for change , innovation , difference ; punishing people for going after today doesn't work , making profit and power things of the past does (for corrupted guys in power) , it is short like terrorism , you can kill all the terrorists you like but there will always be more until you fight the reasons that generate them.
We determine society's limits , everyday and we are changing along with them.

Originally Posted by Rithrandil View Post
Very nice. It does suck having to live in these norms, no? There are things I'd much rather do then have to pay bills or earn a living, but unfortunately I don't see any way around it without everyone starving to death. I do think we need to take a good, long look at what we consider 'acceptable', though.
This gets a bit personal so let's just say that whatever i did i did for levelling up , experience points plus joy , it wasn't about the bills or the norms . The world is full of chances and you only have to catch them , acceptable or not who cares? we only live once
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June 23rd, 2009, 00:12
Originally Posted by Rithrandil View Post
I just think people like Beck hurt the ability for their to be actual discussion. I gave my list of people on both sides I'd like stranded on a desert island, in a pure and just world. Would I want the government to remove them from the air, though? No. I think they have the right to be annoying. I have the right to call them idiots, though.
I'm surprised that you didn't have Olberman, Madcow, and Lavine on your list.
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June 23rd, 2009, 00:14
Fair enough. I was leaving Olberman as someone dte may want to throw under the bus, though

I don't like Lavine and I've never heard Madcow, so if you want to dump them on Gilligan's Island with the others I'll look the other way!
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June 23rd, 2009, 00:26
This can open a big debate and it will look like hijacking OP's thread.
Not a problem. There's not a thread on this forum that hasn't been hijacked.

Where there's smoke, there's mirrors.
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August 24th, 2009, 17:56
As if I haven't antagonized the righties enough lately, I feel compelled to continue poking them with sticks with this story, though it really cuts both ways and may even hurt the lefties more:

Attack on Obama Riles Beck's Advertisers

You can get the background from the story but just to fill in the blanks if you want to skip the read, I'll do a Prime J style bullet list:
  • During the Gates controversy when Obama made his ill-fated remark about Cambridge police acting stupidly, there was the usual response from the talkie people, including Glenn Beck who called the president " a racist with a deeply rooted hatred of white people and their culture."
  • This pissed some people off.
  • A time honored way of expressing disapproval by people disagreeing with commentators is to launch campaigns to boycott their sponsors. (It's done by both sides.)
  • This has happened to Beck—a group representing minorities called ColorofChange has conducted a very successful boycotting campaign and got thirty or so sponsors to drop his show.
  • They're also dropping other controversial shows both left and right because of the potential for consumer fallout

I find it a very enheartening development. If taste and common sense and good manners can't keep talk show hosts between the ditches, maybe some monetary pressure will. I'm not trying to discourage anyone's right to make an ass of themselves on TV or radio, as it's one of my main sources of entertainment, but I do think a little moderation in tone *from all* would be nice.

Of course, when you have the top-rated shows on your network, it's hard to imagine anything too extreme happening. The lefty shows will be hardest hit as they have a much smaller audience—and I'm sure Beck could pass the hat and recoup all the ad money FOX has lost in two days from his supporters, but I'm trying to look on it as a hopeful sign.

Where there's smoke, there's mirrors.
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August 24th, 2009, 18:08
Originally Posted by magerette View Post
I'm just going to quote it with some bolding to make the points a quick skim for those who find the whole article too long:
How Glenn Beck Saves Lives
In Western Europe, neofascist political symbols and rhetoric are tightly regulated on the theory that violent extremism is a bacillus that must be contained. The end result, ironically enough, is that neofascist political movements, ranging from France's National Front to Britain's obnoxiously racist BNP, have had shockingly high levels of electoral success. By marginalizing certain political tendencies, the European approach makes it harder to domesticate them.
PMSL! A couple of council seats in deprived areas for the BNP as against the agenda of the 8 year incumbent repubican party being at least somewhat influenced by neocon extremists . . .

Much better to have some unqualified extremists with no real power than to have a mainstream party with actual power be influenced by (relatively) closet extremists
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August 24th, 2009, 19:28
Originally Posted by Benedict View Post
PMSL! A couple of council seats in deprived areas for the BNP as against the agenda of the 8 year incumbent repubican party being at least somewhat influenced by neocon extremists . . .

Much better to have some unqualified extremists with no real power than to have a mainstream party with actual power be influenced by (relatively) closet extremists
Prime Junta hated that particular comment as well. I think I decided the whole article was relatively bogus in the end.

It's the psychological point he was making that I thought was interesting—i.e., that bottling up your spleen is worse than having it publicly extolled/validated by others and makes it more likely that those on the edge who have those proclivities towards violence decide to act them out. I don't think so, really. I think being extolled and made a martyr is a big factor for guys like the psycho that killed the late-term abortion doctor, Tiller. He's being visited in jail and praised on all the anti-abortion extremist websites, so I'm sure to him that fifteen minutes of fame is well worth it.

Where there's smoke, there's mirrors.
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August 24th, 2009, 19:58
Originally Posted by magerette View Post
As if I haven't antagonized the righties enough lately, I feel compelled to continue poking them with sticks with this story, though it really cuts both ways and may even hurt the lefties more:

Attack on Obama Riles Beck's Advertisers

You can get the background from the story but just to fill in the blanks if you want to skip the read, I'll do a Prime J style bullet list:
  • During the Gates controversy when Obama made his ill-fated remark about Cambridge police acting stupidly, there was the usual response from the talkie people, including Glenn Beck who called the president " a racist with a deeply rooted hatred of white people and their culture."
  • This pissed some people off.
  • A time honored way of expressing disapproval by people disagreeing with commentators is to launch campaigns to boycott their sponsors. (It's done by both sides.)
  • This has happened to Beck—a group representing minorities called ColorofChange has conducted a very successful boycotting campaign and got thirty or so sponsors to drop his show.
  • They're also dropping other controversial shows both left and right because of the potential for consumer fallout

I find it a very enheartening development. If taste and common sense and good manners can't keep talk show hosts between the ditches, maybe some monetary pressure will. I'm not trying to discourage anyone's right to make an ass of themselves on TV or radio, as it's one of my main sources of entertainment, but I do think a little moderation in tone *from all* would be nice.

Of course, when you have the top-rated shows on your network, it's hard to imagine anything too extreme happening. The lefty shows will be hardest hit as they have a much smaller audience—and I'm sure Beck could pass the hat and recoup all the ad money FOX has lost in two days from his supporters, but I'm trying to look on it as a hopeful sign.
There's no way around it, Beck's mouth got way ahead of his brain on that one. It's not at all hard to see the reverse-racism angle in Barack's kneejerk response, but Beck went seriously overboard with it.

The unfortunate part about it is that Maddow and her ilk will never get the same treatment—when she lies and slanders (and she does, every bit as badly as Beck), it's against non-protected groups that aren't allowed to get offended. She can spew with impunity.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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August 24th, 2009, 20:22
The point of the story is that they *are* getting the same treatment from the actual sponsors. Which I think it a good thing. Rachel has a huge chip on her shoulder, though I don't think she's as verbally unguarded (?) or straightforward perhaps as the righties, I'd never say she looks at things without her own bias being in play. I enjoy her the way you enjoy Beck, but with the same massive dose of salt when it comes to attitude.

Who are you thinking of when you say non-protected, btw? AFAIK everybody in this damn country is allowed to get offended ( and has gotten really good at it. )

Where there's smoke, there's mirrors.
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August 24th, 2009, 21:00
Bah. Try being a straight, white, non-impoverished, non-senior-citizen male. Anyone can say anything and do anything, because you're not part of a protected group. It's only the protected groups that are allowed to get offended (and, as you say, often go out of their way to be so). Heck, the only angle available to you personally is from your plumbing and these days that's not a very strong angle—try getting offended about something and see how far it gets you.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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August 24th, 2009, 21:04
OTOH, straight, white, non-impoverished, non-senior-citizen males are in a position where they can pretty effectively defend themselves and their rights. They tend to be found disproportionately commonly in positions of power, too.

Put another way, do you feel you NEED protection?
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August 24th, 2009, 21:34
Nope, but then I don't feel like the protected groups need protection from being offended, either. My datapoint probably would be deemed a flier and promptly deleted so as not to muddy the foregone conclusion. Learn to ignore things people say/do and don't take yerself so damn serious, I say—saves all the hassle and irritation of getting offended.

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August 24th, 2009, 21:56
Problem is that people with chips on their shoulders tend to get motivated by attacks that reinforce their opinions. That can lead to an escalation of psycho behavior…
Last edited by Thrasher; August 24th, 2009 at 22:44.
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August 24th, 2009, 21:59
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Bah. Try being a straight, white, non-impoverished, non-senior-citizen male. Anyone can say anything and do anything, because you're not part of a protected group. It's only the protected groups that are allowed to get offended (and, as you say, often go out of their way to be so). Heck, the only angle available to you personally is from your plumbing and these days that's not a very strong angle—try getting offended about something and see how far it gets you.
It got this guy a book contract, many speaking appearances and a stint as a war correspondent, not to mention dates with hot conservative chicks :

Edit: I removed the Joe the Plumber pic—it was just too colorful.

Nope, but then I don't feel like the protected groups need protection from being offended, either. My datapoint probably would be deemed a flier and promptly deleted so as not to muddy the foregone conclusion. Learn to ignore things people say/do and don't take yerself so damn serious, I say—saves all the hassle and irritation of getting offended.
Totally agree, of course. Things are way too far gone to worry about getting serious at this point. Nonetheless, everything seems to offend somebody.

Where there's smoke, there's mirrors.
Last edited by magerette; August 25th, 2009 at 00:15.
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August 25th, 2009, 09:02
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Nope, but then I don't feel like the protected groups need protection from being offended, either. My datapoint probably would be deemed a flier and promptly deleted so as not to muddy the foregone conclusion. Learn to ignore things people say/do and don't take yerself so damn serious, I say—saves all the hassle and irritation of getting offended.
Yesterday we were chatting with one of my co-workers over lunch. She's a young, rather good-looking Russian woman who works part-time with us, and part-time in her home, St. Petersburg. She was visiting home over the weekend. When she was on her way back, the Finnish immigration officer started giving her the third degree: "Why are you coming to Finland? Where are you staying? Why aren't you staying at a hotel? Why do you need to rent? What's the color of your landlord's hair?" and so on, for ten minutes. She has a multiple-entry visa, and all her papers are in order. Yet the immigration guy's working assumption was that she's a whore.

If I was in that kind of situation, I would find it humiliating, degrading, and extremely unpleasant. What's more, I would not find jokes about Russian hookers particularly funny. Now, *she* said that that's just life, you have to roll with it. That earned her a lot of respect from me.

However, when *you* say the same thing, that makes me respect you *less* — because you've never been in that kind of situation, and unless you go to certain Far Eastern countries, you never will be. IOW, when *you're* saying it, all it says is that you're long on a sense of invented grievance and short on empathy — and that observation doesn't make me respect you; it makes me pity you.
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August 25th, 2009, 12:51
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Nope, but then I don't feel like the protected groups need protection from being offended, either. My datapoint probably would be deemed a flier and promptly deleted so as not to muddy the foregone conclusion. Learn to ignore things people say/do and don't take yerself so damn serious, I say—saves all the hassle and irritation of getting offended.
Are you saying blatant discrimination and racism should simply be shrugged off?
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August 25th, 2009, 12:56
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Are you saying blatant discrimination and racism should simply be shrugged off?
I don't think that's what he's saying at all. I think he was referring to lesser things- simple insults, etc.
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August 25th, 2009, 12:58
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
I don't think that's what he's saying at all. I think he was referring to lesser things- simple insults, etc.
The reason I asked, was to get clarification from him - not you
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