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July 24th, 2009, 17:53
Sorry but KotOR was not *significantly* more complex than Mass Effect was, but of course you are entitled to your opinion.
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July 24th, 2009, 18:06
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Sorry but KotOR was not *significantly* more complex than Mass Effect was, but of course you are entitled to your opinion.
As are you
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July 24th, 2009, 18:16
Cool, now that we're moving on…

I think there is way too much emphasis being placed on the visual resemblance to Mass Effect. It certainly doesn't mean that Alpha Protocol is going to play anything like it, and it's certainly to early to start crying about it being dumbed down.
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July 24th, 2009, 18:28
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Cool, now that we're moving on…

I think there is way too much emphasis being placed on the visual resemblance to Mass Effect. It certainly doesn't mean that Alpha Protocol is going to play anything like it, and it's certainly to early to start crying about it being dumbed down.
I don't care about how it looks, I'm talking about the skill system which seems to be a carbon copy.

Do I know this? Of course not - and if it's not what it seems, then great.
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July 24th, 2009, 18:39
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
I don't care about how it looks, I'm talking about the skill system which seems to be a carbon copy.

My post wasn't directed towards you, it was a reference to the attitude I've been seeing about AP in general. As far the skill system is concerned, I'm trying not to read too much into a few screenshots.
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July 24th, 2009, 18:42
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
My post wasn't directed towards you, it was a reference to the attitude I've been seeing about AP in general. As far the skill system is concerned, I'm trying not to read too much into a few screenshots.
Ok

I don't really read much into it - it's just striking how it looks IDENTICAL in structure. This leads me to my concern, but if it's just an aesthetic resemblance, well all the better.

As I said, I don't even have an interest in the game - so it's not like it's a big loss either way, for me.
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July 24th, 2009, 18:52
Eight out of 45 messages on this thread are yours, though. That's rather a lot, considering that you have no interest in the game.
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July 24th, 2009, 20:37
Originally Posted by Prime Junta View Post
Eight out of 45 messages on this thread are yours, though. That's rather a lot, considering that you have no interest in the game.
What are you suggesting, PJ?

That I'm somehow interested in the game without realising it?

How many messages would be ok, in your interesting world?
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July 24th, 2009, 20:45
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
What are you suggesting, PJ?

That I'm somehow interested in the game without realising it?
Either that, or a number of other possible explanations. Why *are* you discussing a game that you're not interested in?

How many messages would be ok, in your interesting world?
Any number is OK, but IMO the *normal* number would be around zero. There are a quite a few games here that I'm not interested in, which is why you don't find me posting in threads that discuss them.
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July 24th, 2009, 20:49
Originally Posted by Prime Junta View Post
Either that, or a number of other possible explanations. Why *are* you discussing a game that you're not interested in?
I care deeply about gaming, and I lament the general "dumbing down" direction that is so often taken these days. Obsidian remains one of the few houses that I keep an eye out for, because I like their semi-oldschool approach.

When I see something to indicate they're moving in the wrong direction, I speak out because I don't like it. Whether the game in question appeals to me or not, is irrelevant.

AP is obviously some kind of modern spy game, and for some reason that setting just doesn't appeal to me. I might be surprised by the gameplay or something else, but I just don't have anything invested in it.

Fallout 3 was sort of the same, to me, because I don't like post-apoc settings. That didn't prevent me from participating in all kinds of debates about it - and more specifically about what Bethesda was doing to such a beloved franchise. I don't have to like something to understand it or have an opinion about it. Besides, Fallout 1+2 were brilliant in terms of gameplay - and even I managed to enjoy them despite the atmosphere which I, frankly, loathe.

Any number is OK, but IMO the *normal* number would be around zero. There are a quite a few games here that I'm not interested in, which is why you don't find me posting in threads that discuss them.
What a rigid system, but naturally you're welcome to it.

I'm to be found anywhere that deals with stuff I care about, and threads tend to diverge and take on a life of their own.

But that's me.
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July 25th, 2009, 00:09
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
I'm generally not negative

I just don't often like what developers put out these days, and I don't mind talking about it.

I think that sort of thing suits the Watch just fine.
I'm sorry, but you are. Negative, that is. It doesn't help that your avatar paints you as an evil, arrogant bastard intent on destroying the world (which you clearly aren't). But it's all fine for the reasons you stated.

This stating of opinions by some does sometimes look like good old "get off my lawn!" complaining to the untrained eye, though. Nothing wrong with having a different taste, but I feel there will always be a clash between the kind of people that did like games such as Mass Effect and people that crave more of an old-school RPG experience. I'm afraid to say that most of the latter seem to have a more specific taste and are less tolerant of different types of games than the former. I think it is possible to love old-school PC RPGs and still be into the modernised versions of the genre.

You'd call it mass market game development and making everything accessible. You can either view that as a good thing or a bad thing. That is, not everything intented for the mass market has to be dumbed down by definition—and I think you'd disagree with me there.

Disclaimer: I did like Mass Effect a lot.
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July 25th, 2009, 08:56
Originally Posted by Thaurin View Post
I'm sorry, but you are. Negative, that is. It doesn't help that your avatar paints you as an evil, arrogant bastard intent on destroying the world (which you clearly aren't). But it's all fine for the reasons you stated.

This stating of opinions by some does sometimes look like good old "get off my lawn!" complaining to the untrained eye, though. Nothing wrong with having a different taste, but I feel there will always be a clash between the kind of people that did like games such as Mass Effect and people that crave more of an old-school RPG experience. I'm afraid to say that most of the latter seem to have a more specific taste and are less tolerant of different types of games than the former. I think it is possible to love old-school PC RPGs and still be into the modernised versions of the genre.

You'd call it mass market game development and making everything accessible. You can either view that as a good thing or a bad thing. That is, not everything intented for the mass market has to be dumbed down by definition—and I think you'd disagree with me there.

Disclaimer: I did like Mass Effect a lot.
I really agree with what you wrote here. I liked oblivion, mass effect, fallout 3 and a slew of other games some here would take offense too….I am looking forward to this game to.

Sometimes I think people forget what games are about, back in elemntary school teachers always said that when you play a game it should be fun.
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July 25th, 2009, 10:02
Sometimes I think people forget what games are about, back in elemntary school teachers always said that when you play a game it should be fun.
Dialogues, story, characters and music are fun for me, while pointless fighting is boring. If I want to shoot something I play online games like Red Orchestra or Counter-Strike, not cRPGs.

You say as it's in reverse - games should be stupid and casual because they are fun, and other things are not important - I completely disagree with this.
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July 25th, 2009, 10:18
I never said that and you twisted it, congrats.
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July 25th, 2009, 10:29
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
I care deeply about gaming, and I lament the general "dumbing down" direction that is so often taken these days. Obsidian remains one of the few houses that I keep an eye out for, because I like their semi-oldschool approach.

When I see something to indicate they're moving in the wrong direction, I speak out because I don't like it. Whether the game in question appeals to me or not, is irrelevant.
Then why even bring up your lack of interest? Why not just discuss the stuff that you're interested in discussing, and leave it at that? You're spilling a lot of bits explaining in great detail exactly what you're not interested in, such as the two paragraphs below. Why do you think anyone cares? All it does is makes you sound narcissistic, prejudiced, and, yes, negative, which isn't helping you get your message across at all.

AP is obviously some kind of modern spy game, and for some reason that setting just doesn't appeal to me. I might be surprised by the gameplay or something else, but I just don't have anything invested in it.

Fallout 3 was sort of the same, to me, because I don't like post-apoc settings. That didn't prevent me from participating in all kinds of debates about it - and more specifically about what Bethesda was doing to such a beloved franchise. I don't have to like something to understand it or have an opinion about it. Besides, Fallout 1+2 were brilliant in terms of gameplay - and even I managed to enjoy them despite the atmosphere which I, frankly, loathe.
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July 25th, 2009, 11:28
Originally Posted by Prime Junta View Post
Then why even bring up your lack of interest? Why not just discuss the stuff that you're interested in discussing, and leave it at that? You're spilling a lot of bits explaining in great detail exactly what you're not interested in, such as the two paragraphs below. Why do you think anyone cares? All it does is makes you sound narcissistic, prejudiced, and, yes, negative, which isn't helping you get your message across at all.
It doesn't really matter how it makes me seem, as long as I feel people have the opportunity understand where I'm coming from. By making it clear that I have no interest in AP- beyond the impact on the industry - it should help those who're interested to understand that it's not emotional bias. You have strong emotional bias against everything I write, so you interpret it in the worst way imaginable. Others here doubtlessly agree, but I do sense there are people willing to let their own tastes and prejudices stand aside and simply take me at my word.

People like you, who're somewhat fragile in terms of ego and who rely heavily on the perception others have of you - even in a place like this where no one really knows anyone, will always feel people like me are horrible in some way. Just think of the energy you keep using responding to my posts, even though I'm ignoring yours. I've said numerous times I've felt it's a big waste of time - and nothing good can ever come from it. You have an issue with me, and that's perfectly alright - but why waste our time going over it, again and again. You might be right, that I'm narcissistic and negative - so why bother interacting? Are you trying to "save" me in the cause of good, or are you simply unable to let it go like an adult?
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July 25th, 2009, 11:29
Originally Posted by rune_74 View Post
I really agree with what you wrote here. I liked oblivion, mass effect, fallout 3 and a slew of other games some here would take offense too….I am looking forward to this game to.

Sometimes I think people forget what games are about, back in elemntary school teachers always said that when you play a game it should be fun.
That may be, but fundamentally - can't we agree that some games appeal more to others, and some people want other kinds of fun?

I mean, that's pretty basic.
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July 25th, 2009, 12:06
Originally Posted by Thaurin View Post
I'm sorry, but you are. Negative, that is. It doesn't help that your avatar paints you as an evil, arrogant bastard intent on destroying the world (which you clearly aren't). But it's all fine for the reasons you stated.

This stating of opinions by some does sometimes look like good old "get off my lawn!" complaining to the untrained eye, though. Nothing wrong with having a different taste, but I feel there will always be a clash between the kind of people that did like games such as Mass Effect and people that crave more of an old-school RPG experience. I'm afraid to say that most of the latter seem to have a more specific taste and are less tolerant of different types of games than the former. I think it is possible to love old-school PC RPGs and still be into the modernised versions of the genre.

You'd call it mass market game development and making everything accessible. You can either view that as a good thing or a bad thing. That is, not everything intented for the mass market has to be dumbed down by definition—and I think you'd disagree with me there.

Disclaimer: I did like Mass Effect a lot.
Now there's a sensible and unbiased post, thank you for that

I agree completely with everything you said, basically. I know how it might seem, and in terms of my attitude towards the modern gaming industry - it'd be damn right. I AM negative towards it, but that hardly makes me a negative person overall.

In any case, I also agree that mass market games don't implicitly need to be "dumbed down" but by god it's a rarity to see anything else, isn't it.

I AM extremely intolerant of things I vehemently disagree with, like this focus on streamlining and accessibility - so you're right. Well, intolerance isn't really the right word. I can't do anything but tolerate it, I just have to speak my mind against it - at every opportunity. That's just who I am.

Also, I'm not blind to economic reality and I understand that this is big time industry now. It's to do with my own personal perception of money and the american corporate culture, so you won't find me all too happy when it hits my passion like it's done.

However, I remain open towards AP - because we've just seen a few screenshots and Obsidian hasn't REALLY disappointed me yet. That said, I still don't care about the game - just the periphiral effects it might have on the few remaining "old-school" developers.
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July 26th, 2009, 13:17
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Just think of the energy you keep using responding to my posts, even though I'm ignoring yours.
Another beautiful piece of unintentional irony here.

I've said numerous times I've felt it's a big waste of time - and nothing good can ever come from it. You have an issue with me, and that's perfectly alright - but why waste our time going over it, again and again. You might be right, that I'm narcissistic and negative - so why bother interacting? Are you trying to "save" me in the cause of good, or are you simply unable to let it go like an adult?
To be perfectly honest, I don't know. I don't always think very deeply before posting; I sometimes just fire off a message on impulse. I can invent any number of ex post facto rationalizations, of course. Maybe I just like to poke a bit of fun at people I think are feeling a bit too self-important for their own good.

Of course, you do realize that it takes two to interact, right? If you feel no possible good could come of it, why don't *you* "let it go like an adult?"
Last edited by Prime Junta; July 26th, 2009 at 14:15.
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July 26th, 2009, 13:20
Originally Posted by Prime Junta View Post
Of course, you do realize that it takes two to interact, right? If you feel no possible good could come of it, why don't *you* "let it go like an adult?"
I must agree.

Seemingly you can't stand it not having the last word in anything.

If so, then there's a learning lesson needed.

Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction. (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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