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Default Planescape: Torment - Retrospective @ Eurogamer

August 25th, 2009, 20:09
Yes, I loved the PS:T writing. I couldn't read the review for the above stated reasons.
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August 25th, 2009, 21:35
While I enjoyed IWD (and even the second one) I remember absolutely nothing about the story or characters. Zero. Nada. I do rmember BG1, BG2, and PST quite well however.
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August 26th, 2009, 12:45
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
I amazed that you've even played it, because it doesn't sound like you have…
Hahahaha . . . are you arguing that there is a real story to any of the IWD games? I must have failed to stumble across it in my 30 hour dungeon crawl.

More polished graphics & combat than baldur's gate, more of the same D&D rules (although I'm far keener on the later edition rules as in NWN onwards), but nothing else.
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August 26th, 2009, 12:46
I don't remember a single story-related aspect of the IWD games.
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August 26th, 2009, 12:50
Originally Posted by Benedict View Post
Hahahaha . . . are you arguing that there is a real story to any of the IWD games? I must have failed to stumble across it in my 30 hour dungeon crawl.

More polished graphics & combat than baldur's gate, more of the same D&D rules (although I'm far keener on the later edition rules as in NWN onwards), but nothing else.
I sort of agree, but at least IWD2 had (mutated) 3rd edition rules

They are better than BG for multiplayer due to the relative lack of storyline (combat keeps all players busy, dialogue doesnt), but that aside I'd say the only thing that is really great about the IWDs is the soundtrack.
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August 26th, 2009, 12:51
Originally Posted by Zaleukos View Post
I sort of agree, but at least IWD2 had (mutated) 3rd edition rules

They are better than BG for multiplayer due to the relative lack of storyline (combat keeps all players busy, dialogue doesnt), but that aside I'd say the only thing that is really great about the IWDs is the soundtrack.
Mutated?

That's putting it mildly
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August 26th, 2009, 13:06
I love IWD. No, it's not PS:T but the art, music and atmosphere are gorgeous. The story is simple but works nicely for a good dungeon crawler.

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August 26th, 2009, 13:25
I definitely agree that IWD works for what it is IMHO the game is best enjoyed if one dont think of it purely as a dungeoncrawler and dont go out to compare it with BG and the likes. In a way I'd say it is very similar to the Goldbox games, which (with some exceptions) also consisted of linear dungeon crawling and were all about tactical combat.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Mutated?

That's putting it mildly
Having no experience with the PnP version I cant really judge how badly the ruleset was mangled Regardless it's still way superior to the abomination that is 2nd edition rules…
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August 26th, 2009, 13:31
Originally Posted by Zaleukos View Post
Having no experience with the PnP version I cant really judge how badly the ruleset was mangled Regardless it's still way superior to the abomination that is 2nd edition rules…
If you've played NWN(2), you have a pretty good idea of the PnP rules. They're a little simplified here and there, but overall a fairly faithful rendition.
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August 26th, 2009, 13:40
Originally Posted by Zaleukos View Post
Having no experience with the PnP version I cant really judge how badly the ruleset was mangled Regardless it's still way superior to the abomination that is 2nd edition rules…
It's more unlike 3rd than alike - i'd almost say

It's like the satan baby of a 2nd and 3rd edition rules coupling.

Nah, not really. It was fun - but a nightmare for people who tried to play it as a faithful conversion.
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August 26th, 2009, 13:45
Originally Posted by Benedict View Post
Hahahaha . . . are you arguing that there is a real story to any of the IWD games? I must have failed to stumble across it in my 30 hour dungeon crawl.
Or maybe just try reading the manual next time.

IWD obviously doesn't compete in story, but it has *much* better combat, a lot more variety to the enemies, and a far larger pool of spells, weapons, armor, etc.

Dhruin also made a good point about the art and music, which might be the best among the IE games.
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August 26th, 2009, 14:23
I think it is all in your expectations - as stated, you don't come to IWD for the mega-story, but as a story-lite dungeon crawl it is a blast, IMO. Music, as stated, is also fantastic.

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August 26th, 2009, 14:25
Note that I think IWD were great games
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August 26th, 2009, 14:55
I love IWD also. Marvelous game. The atmosphere was amazing. They had a bunch of just beautiful areas. I loved exploring every inch of those hand-drawn areas. Then the music was divine. Jeremy Soule really did a number on it. My favorite song has got to be The Theme of Kuldahar. Awesome piece. That's a serious contender for my all time game soundtrack songs. The main menu theme was also cool. So was the Easthaven theme.

The combat was great, and I liked picking enemies one by one, and most bosses in the game were damn hard. So that took some skill.

The story was nice, and I did not find it boring at all. I can still remember the important parts even right now.
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August 26th, 2009, 17:09
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Or maybe just try reading the manual next time.

IWD obviously doesn't compete in story, but it has *much* better combat, a lot more variety to the enemies, and a far larger pool of spells, weapons, armor, etc.

Dhruin also made a good point about the art and music, which might be the best among the IE games.
So they put the story into the manual? Or do you feel that it wasn't possible to get the most out of the combat / spell / character system without reading the manual? I did have a bit of fun with the combat. For a while. I just very quickly and got to regular moments of immersion breaking clarity where I thought "Why am I playing this? Why are my characters here, who are they, if I get above the minutiae of making the most of my party's strength what's the bigger picture?".

As said, polished. Good combat, easily the best of the infinity engine games. Nice art, soundtrack, generally everything that was flawed about the other infinity engine games got sorted out for IWD. Polished. But give me a flawed gem over a polished turd any day.

I stand by the view that it had nothing else. Story? No. Memorable characters? No. Choices and consequences? No. Good dialogue? No. Freedom to roleplay? No. Replayability? No. A sense that my party has a real influence on the world? No.

Still, plenty of games with far less anyway. I'm certainly not saying that it's in any way a bad game, definitely above average, maybe even upper quartile. But compared to planescape it was a thoroughly empty and unmemorable experience, even if it killed time better than many of its peers before or since.
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August 26th, 2009, 17:24
Originally Posted by Benedict View Post
So they put the story into the manual? Or do you feel that it wasn't possible to get the most out of the combat / spell / character system without reading the manual? I did have a bit of fun with the combat. For a while. I just very quickly and got to regular moments of immersion breaking clarity where I thought "Why am I playing this? Why are my characters here, who are they, if I get above the minutiae of making the most of my party's strength what's the bigger picture?".
How many times do I have to repeat that the story wasn't IWDs strongest point? I think we've already established that most people agree that PST is better in that department.


Originally Posted by Benedict View Post
As said, polished. Good combat, easily the best of the infinity engine games. Nice art, soundtrack, generally everything that was flawed about the other infinity engine games got sorted out for IWD. Polished. But give me a flawed gem over a polished turd any day.
Except that you seem to be the only one here who thinks IWD is a "turd".

Originally Posted by Benedict View Post
I stand by the view that it had nothing else. Story? No. Memorable characters? No. Choices and consequences? No. Good dialogue? No. Freedom to roleplay? No. Replayability? No. A sense that my party has a real influence on the world? No. .
Yeah it has nothing else… except all the things that the rest of us have been pointing out that you choose to ignore.
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August 26th, 2009, 17:44
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
How many times do I have to repeat that the story wasn't IWDs strongest point? I think we've already established that most people agree that PST is better in that department.
You don't. That was my attempt to understand your "try reading the manual comment" (in response to my saying that IWD didn't have a story).

Except that you seem to be the only one here who thinks IWD is a "turd".
That was the word that naturally sprang to mind in conjunction with polishing up something not very good, although in fairness turds are more generally renowned for the resistance to polishing. I did elsewhere say that I considered it above average or even upper quartile, although predominantly due to polish of the basics than due to any loftier ambitions

Yeah it has nothing else… except all the things that the rest of us have been pointing out that you choose to ignore.
Yes . . . polish . . . to repeat, "Good combat, easily the best of the infinity engine games. Nice art, soundtrack, generally everything that was flawed about the other infinity engine games ". I can't see that anyone else has really pointed out anything else?
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August 26th, 2009, 17:49
Originally Posted by Benedict View Post
You don't. That was my attempt to understand your "try reading the manual comment" (in response to my saying that IWD didn't have a story).
Shouldn't be too hard to understand, it made a lot more sense than the comment I was responding to.

Originally Posted by Benedict View Post
That was the word that naturally sprang to mind in conjunction with polishing up something not very good, although in fairness turds are more generally renowned for the resistance to polishing. I did elsewhere say that I considered it above average or even upper quartile, although predominantly due to polish of the basics than due to any loftier ambitions
Except that it *is* very good to a lot of people. I know… tough concept for you to grasp it seems.
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August 26th, 2009, 18:10
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Shouldn't be too hard to understand, it made a lot more sense than the comment I was responding to.
In that case it shouldn't be too hard to explain either. I'm happy to clarify my own comment if you like, namely that it had no particular story and was fundamentally a dungeon crawler, although you yourself seem to agree so I'm not sure what it is about my comment that you find nonsensical.

Except that it *is* very good to a lot of people. I know… tough concept for you to grasp it seems.
No, a very easy concept to grasp, and I'm not sure quite why you're assuming otherwise (although you don't really seem to be reading what I'm writing, but then I am slating one of your favourites so that's understandable, I'd probably not really read properly any criticisms of planescape).

I fully appreciate that everyone has different utility functions and that to some people the quality of implementation of the combat, music and artwork are sufficient to carry a game and even make it a classic. My own utility function happens to consider those elements basically just the polish that's put on top of a world & plot, and while a shocking lack of polish can ruin an interesting world & plot for me, a high level of polish can't make up for deficiencies in the areas I really play games with the hope of experiencing.

I'm not arguing that my utility function is inherently right while yours is inherently wrong (it is, but I know I can't prove it ), merely that IWD is a story lite dungeon crawler, albeit a well implemented one.
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August 26th, 2009, 18:27
Originally Posted by Benedict View Post
In that case it shouldn't be too hard to explain either. I'm happy to clarify my own comment if you like, namely that it had no particular story and was fundamentally a dungeon crawler, although you yourself seem to agree so I'm not sure what it is about my comment that you find nonsensical.
No one will argue about it being fundamentally a dungeon crawler, but it seemed like you were trying to claim it didn't have a plot/story at all, which is not the case.

Originally Posted by Benedict View Post
No, a very easy concept to grasp, and I'm not sure quite why you're assuming otherwise (although you don't really seem to be reading what I'm writing, but then I am slating one of your favourites so that's understandable, I'd probably not really read properly any criticisms of planescape).
Because you didn't seem to be grasping it, that's why… and yes, I was reading your words just fine.

Your opinion is completely subjective, just like mine, and I have no problem with it. What I do have a problem with however, is when someone tries to take something that is subjective and state it as a fact.

Originally Posted by Benedict View Post
I fully appreciate that everyone has different utility functions and that to some people the quality of implementation of the combat, music and artwork are sufficient to carry a game and even make it a classic. My own utility function happens to consider those elements basically just the polish that's put on top of a world & plot, and while a shocking lack of polish can ruin an interesting world & plot for me, a high level of polish can't make up for deficiencies in the areas I really play games with the hope of experiencing.

I'm not arguing that my utility function is inherently right while yours is inherently wrong (it is, but I know I can't prove it ), merely that IWD is a story lite dungeon crawler, albeit a well implemented one.

See, now that wasn't so hard….
Last edited by JDR13; August 26th, 2009 at 18:47. Reason: Grammar
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