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August 31st, 2009, 14:16
Woges

Honestly, I think you're overreacting.

I see absolutely nothing about PJ's post to warrant your reaction. He's basically pointing out relatively substantiated facts related to fat people and the problems that go with it.

He's hardly trying to interfere with the lifestyle of anyone.

Basically, I think you're being very defensive for whatever reason, and I'm not sure why.
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August 31st, 2009, 14:19
Originally Posted by woges View Post
Or you could just learn to let people get on with their own existence and not worry about it. You think that over-weight people don't have the intelligence to know about the implications of their 'condition'. It really sounds like it's a problem for you and that you're willing to believe any old shit that suits the mentality. There are plenty of problems in the world this just isn't one I tend to care as much about as you PJ. To me it's no different to bullying people because they are different or weaker.
I really seem to have hit a nerve here. I'm sorry, woges — my intention wasn't to offend. I simply brought the article up as an example of our brains reacting to our environment and the choices we make.

(For the record, yes, I do believe that public health measures designed to combat obesity by helping people eat better and get more exercise are good ideas. But I'm not obsessed with the idea or anything.)
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August 31st, 2009, 14:22
Originally Posted by Prime Junta View Post
IOW, sticking your head in the sand about it is a pretty poor choice IMO. If being fat makes you sick and stupid, you won't be any healthier and smarter by not knowing about it.
Then notice when fingers are being pointed at people in that arrogant way that I so much enjoy.
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August 31st, 2009, 14:23
I have to agree with DArtagnan here. I'm overweight and I don't really find anything PJ is saying as offensive. It's just general advice, IMO. In fact, I do appreciate his food advice, too - It gives me more things to work with.

PJ's not saying "Hey, fatties! Stop eating fried chicken covered in nacho cheese, you wastes of life!". He's saying the way our society is operating and set up right now is that it is far easier for people to eat crap that is horrible for them, and this has serious consequences for their physical and mental wellbeing. And to be honest, most people don't realize how bad a lot of food is for them. I mean, go look at a can of soup. It typically has something like 80% of your daily sodium in it, if not more. Most people think that if they don't eat cheetos, donuts, or drink soda they'll be fine, but I don't think they're aware of how much random crap that is bad for you is in supposedly "healthy" foods, like chicken noodle soup.

Anyways, I don't find what he's saying offensive in the slightest. But seriously, look at the points he's making - enact positive changes to society to encourage more exercise and eating healthier foods. It's not like healthy food tastes bad - its just that if you are extremely busy or don't plan ahead well (like me), you're more likely to go heat up the can of Chef Boyardee or the bag of ramen instead of preparing something healthy.
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August 31st, 2009, 14:31
Originally Posted by woges View Post
Then notice when fingers are being pointed at people in that arrogant way that I so much enjoy.
You're right, that did sound arrogant and condescending. I should have phrased it differently. Again, I apologize for any offense I have caused — that was not what I intended.
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August 31st, 2009, 14:46
Believe what you want I'm not stopping you, I never do, it's enough to know that I dislike this as a form of discrimination as the whole issue around fat people, I feel, is a little more complex. Funny that Darg kidda hit on on the head with the calling a genius a genius thing as this is around the same ball park for me. You're not making anyone feel better by crusading against them. Whatever element doesn't make the 'ideal' should be cut out. Hmm nasty connotations.
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August 31st, 2009, 14:56
Originally Posted by woges View Post
Believe what you want I'm not stopping you, I never do, it's enough to know that I dislike this as a form of discrimination as the whole issue around fat people, I feel, is a little more complex. Funny that Darg kidda hit on on the head with the calling a genius a genius thing as this is around the same ball park for me. You're not making anyone feel better by crusading against them. Whatever element doesn't make the 'ideal' should be cut out. Hmm nasty connotations.
Uh… what?

Let me get this straight: do you think I want to discriminate against fat people in some way? And did you just suggest that public health measures designed to promote exercise and healthy eating are somehow similar to the Nazi program of exterminating people that didn't fit their racial ideal?

Or am I misunderstanding you completely?
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August 31st, 2009, 15:16
I think the general consensus is quite ethically poor yes. You as an individual I'd hope not. There is definitely an elevated stigma to the issue when compared with others imho.
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August 31st, 2009, 15:28
Originally Posted by woges View Post
I think the general consensus is quite ethically poor yes. You as an individual I'd hope not. There is definitely an elevated stigma to the issue when compared with others imho.
You think? From where I'm at, overweight people are stigmatized and discriminated against less than alcoholics, Russians, gays, or Hare Krishnas, to pick a bunch of examples at random. Never even mind Roma.

In any case, I entirely reject any connection between support of public health measures to combat obesity and wanting to discriminate against fat people.
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August 31st, 2009, 16:00
Enough really I'm not going down yet another tangent with you on this. I will say that it depends on your location which type of people get the 'shit end of the stick'; I'll also say that it's not good enough really that they do. An 'authoritative' campaign can certainly damage reputations and enforce certain ways of thinking whatever you want to reject and that is the last I'll say on the matter. Not just taking the extreme obese account and blasting away at the issue in it's most simple state for the purpose of electioneering - I'm all for that of course.

I've just been told that the Finish methodology is somewhat more 'sound' than efforts elsewhere and that it has been somewhat successful. Remember though it's not the same in all countries and that we probably have a very different experience in regards to this issue.
Last edited by woges; August 31st, 2009 at 16:12.
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August 31st, 2009, 19:49
Originally Posted by Prime Junta View Post
Spaghetti crudaiolo (serves two)

* 250 grams whole-grain spaghetti
* 1 clove garlic
* a splash of olive oil
* a tomato
* a small zucchini
* some Parmesan or Grana Padano cheese
* wine vinegar
* rough salt and black pepper

Bring a kettle of water to a boil. Throw in some salt and a splash of vinegar. As it's heating, crush the clove of garlic with a few grains of rough salt, and add some olive oil to make a paste. Chop the tomatoes into small cubes and the zucchini into thin half-moons. When the water boils, throw in the spaghetti; stir in the beginning to stop it from sticking, and continue with your veggie processing activities. When the pasta is done, drain, return to the kettle, dump in the garlic and olive oil paste, zucchini, and tomato cubes, grind in some black pepper, stir, and serve immediately. Grate some parmesan on when it's on the plate.

You can add other stuff too, if you like — toasted walnuts, pecans, or pine nuts are really nice, for example.
Originally Posted by Gorath View Post
I doubt a discussion can get more off topic than this one.
I agree.

Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction. (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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September 1st, 2009, 01:53
I really don't understand the agro here, especially from you woges. Obesity is a major health issue in the world and I suspect that many of us who sit for long periods in front of keyboards are overweight. I think PJ has been not only extremely tolerant, but has offered a very well reasoned position on his concerns. Anyone who takes offence needs to take a LONG look in a mirror!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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September 1st, 2009, 02:48
I have now spent more of my life thin than fat, but I still live with the spectre of the person I was before I lost more weight than an average person … I know the hurt, the discrimination, the stigmas … and I still am amazed at the fact that we could feed our family 4x cheaper if we avoided fresh fruit, vegetables, meat, and other low-fat and nutritious food sources and had processed foods instead.

— Mike
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September 1st, 2009, 11:20
Vegetables and body movement - this appears more and more to be the key for me.

Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction. (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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September 1st, 2009, 11:40
Regarding weight, it's actually really simple.

I speak from experience, having been overweight for many years in the past.

You simply need to burn more calories than you take in, and there are ways to calculate more or less precisely how many we're talking about - based on gender, height, weight, muscles, age, and activity levels. I've dropped 60 and 40 pounds respectively, in the space of 8 and 6 months. It's not hard if you have the motivation.

It really doesn't matter what you eat, as long as you don't exceed your calorie intake. Naturally, if you want to go beyond just weight - you need to take a look at what you put in your mouth. But you don't need to be particularly healthy to stay fit. You can eat surprisingly large amounts of sugar and fat, as long as you keep to your daily limits.

Personally, I walk ~1 hour 5 days pr. week, and with this activity level I can eat 2000 calories during weekdays, and 2500 calories sat/sun - without gaining any weight.

I lost approximately 2 lbs. pr. week during my weightloss period, and I ate ~1500 calories pr. day - which essentially means a deficit of 500 calories pr. day.

This is because I'm not that big (in terms of muscle mass) or tall. If you're bigger, you can eat more - especially if you're into high protein foods like meats
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September 1st, 2009, 13:03
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
I really don't understand the agro here, especially from you woges. Obesity is a major health issue in the world and I suspect that many of us who sit for long periods in front of keyboards are overweight. I think PJ has been not only extremely tolerant, but has offered a very well reasoned position on his concerns. Anyone who takes offence needs to take a LONG look in a mirror!!
I see, so anyone that doesn't agree with you guys should not offer anything to a debate and your opinion is final, and if they don't agree with you they should 'take a LONG look in a mirror!!'. Look, I have trouble with the fat = stupid statement and you're all happy to believe whatever you want but, for sure, I've met plenty of stupid thin people and of all shapes and sizes for that matter. I've heard of broad-brushes before but, well, whatever, does it really matter? I'm not going to champion people and I'm just not ready to believe everything that's put in front of me when it seems only a part of a much wider issue.

Edit: 'The results, based on brain scans of 94 people' should ring alarm bells for most serious thinkers anyway.
Last edited by woges; September 1st, 2009 at 13:19.
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September 1st, 2009, 14:01
Originally Posted by woges View Post
I see, so anyone that doesn't agree with you guys should not offer anything to a debate and your opinion is final, and if they don't agree with you they should 'take a LONG look in a mirror!!'.
I don't think anyone here is objecting to disagreement. Some of us (myself included) are a bit surprised at how upset you got about this. If there's anything I can do to smooth things down, just let me know — as stated, I really, truly, honestly did not and do not want to offend.

Look, I have trouble with the fat = stupid statement and you're all happy to believe whatever you want but, for sure, I've met plenty of stupid thin people and of all shapes and sizes for that matter. I've heard of broad-brushes before but, well, whatever, does it really matter? I'm not going to champion people and I'm just not ready to believe everything that's put in front of me when it seems only a part of a much wider issue.
Woges, what the article said was that they had discovered a connection between obesity and brain degeneration with age. They did not say that fat people are stupid and thin people are smart. They did say that old, thin people have their brains in better shape than old, fat people. Given what else we know about the long-term health effects of obesity, I cannot see how this should be particularly surprising — old fat people tend to have most of their organs in worse shape than old thin people, all else being equal. Why would the brain be any different from the liver, heart, or kidneys?

Edit: 'The results, based on brain scans of 94 people' should ring alarm bells for most serious thinkers anyway.
It's a relatively small sample, and therefore the margin of error is fairly large — but the effect they discovered is pretty dramatic, too. I don't think an average brain age difference of 16 years, and brain mass change of 8 per cent, fit within the margin of error. The source is relatively reputable, too. It might turn out to be a fluke or a piece of bad reporting, but I can't see how it's reasonable to dismiss it out of hand.
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September 1st, 2009, 15:32
I see so when you read that title there are no connotations implied even though yourself managed a 'If being fat makes you sick and stupid'. What do you want me to say about this? That I agree with you when I don't? I'm not angry I just find it surprising that you'd jump on a flimsy wagon like this. I've no doubt that what we put into our bodies has effects on its molecular apparatus I do question that it's the only factor.

In any regards John Lorber findings rather dispute any such connotations and that the brains capacity is really more than necessary by a long margin.

In 1980, Roger Lewin published an article in Science, "Is Your Brain Really Necessary?"[1], about Lorber studies on cerebral cortex losses. He reports the case of a Sheffield University student who had a measured IQ of 126 and passed a Mathematics Degree but who had hardly any discernible brain matter at all since his cortex was extremely reduced by hydrocephalus.

So what really is the point of that 'report'?
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September 1st, 2009, 15:42
Originally Posted by woges View Post
I see so when you read that title there are no connotations implied even though yourself managed a 'If being fat makes you sick and stupid'.
I already apologized for that phrasing. Is there anything else you'd like me to do?

What do you want me to say about this? That I agree with you when I don't? I'm not angry I just find it surprising that you'd jump on a flimsy wagon like this. I've no doubt that what we put into our bodies has effects on its molecular apparatus I do question that it's the only factor.
There isn't anything in particular I *want* you to say. However, I am not happy that I've upset you as much as I appear to have done, and if there's anything I can do to fix that, I'd like to know what it is.

Or, put another way, I would like you to dial down the aggro a bit — I don't enjoy talking to people with that level of hostility. (In fact, unless you change your tone, I'm simply going to stop pursuing this discussion with you.)

In any regards John Lorber findings rather dispute any such connotations and that the brains capacity is really more than necessary by a long margin.
Are you claiming that there's no causal connection or statistical correlation between brain age/degeneration and cognitive ability?

A few posts back, you cited the relatively small number of patients (94) as a reason to disregard the study. Now you're citing a single, partly anecdotal case as evidence for your (apparent) claim that brain degeneration has no connection with cognitive ability; what's more, said case deals with a completely different condition (hydrocephalus) than what we're dealing with here (age degeneration). Don't you think there's a contradiction here?
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September 1st, 2009, 16:06
Well you can look at the report where I took the John Lorber case from and it's a little more eye opening. The brain is an incredibly complex thing and I'm not going to say I'm an expert but I suspect the human/living condition as a whole is the reason for degradation and hydrocephalus (1 in 500 according to Wiki) is quite common and not a singular case.

Research Report
Dormancy of the Human Brain
Dormant Brain Research and Development Laboratory
T.D.A. Lingo, Director

The human brain is only 10% functional, at best.
The first to outline this theory, later proved a fact by others, was Australian Neurology Nobel Laureate Sir John Eccles. (Lecture: University of Colorado, University Memorial Center Boulder, July 31, 1974.) "The brain indicates its powers are endless."

In England, John Lorber did autopsies on hydrocephalics. This illness causes all but the 1/6th inch layer of brain tissue to be dissolved by acidic spinal fluid. He tested the IQ's of patients before and during the disease. His findings showed that IQ remained constant up to death. Although over 90% of brain tissue was destroyed by the disease, it had no impact on what we consider to be normal intelligence.

Russian neurosurgeon Alexandre Luria proved that the 1/3 bulk of frontal lobes are mostly dormant. He did this by performing ablation experiments on persons. He gave physiological and psychological tests before, cut out parts and whole frontal lobes, the re-tested after. His conclusion: removal of part or all of frontal lobes causes no major change in brain function, (some change in mood alteration). The frontal lobes are mostly dormant, asleep. (Luria, A.R. "Frontal Lobes and the Regulation of Behavior." In: K.H. Pribram and A.R. Luria, Editors, Psychophysiology of the Frontal Lobes. New York, and London, Academic Press, 1973)

Finally, the human brain contains 10 billion neurons, mostly in the outer layer of brain cortex. the function of these currently dominant cells is fairly clear. but the brain also contains 120 billion glial cells. Aside from some secondary nurturing of neurons, the primary function of the glia is not clear. What big bang mirical awaits mankind within these mysteries?

Today, most would agree without argument that the potential of the human brain is infinite. Thus, to state that a person uses 10%, 5%, or even 1% of their potential brain capacity (infinity) is overly generous.

The point is this: There is no dispute among honestly rational experts about the latent potential of the human think box. There is only friendly dispute about how much and what still awaits us, patiently to be self-discovered between each set of ears. Hence, the wisdom of intuitive folksay was correct: "The human brain is only 10% functional." John Eccles thinks that number is too high. "How can you calculate a percentage of infinity?"
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