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Default Careless talk, and consequences thereof…

September 3rd, 2009, 14:15
Originally Posted by Prime Junta View Post
Unlikely. AFAIK they only import and market Audi cars in Finland; I'd find it very unlikely that the government would get involved in something like that. If they had a manufacturing operation here, it might be a different matter.
Ah ok, thanks for clearing that. I googled a bit and didn't see any plants near anywhere Skandinavian region.
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September 3rd, 2009, 14:21
Originally Posted by Prime Junta View Post
The ombudsperson thing was an attempt at humor; I just thought it's amusing that the non-discrimination ombudsman's official (English) title is not gender-neutral. (The Finnish title is "tasa-arvoasiainvaltuutettu," which is, in fact, gender-neutral.)

Sometimes it is hard to tell when people are joking (see above), but I would have expected him to step up and say so if that had been the case.
Ombudsman sounds a bit Swedish to me, and I think England (1967) was well behind Finland (1919) in appointing them.
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September 3rd, 2009, 14:27
Originally Posted by Rithrandil View Post
Yeah, if he had been attacked by the government that would be a huge issue. Any consequences for his actions should only come from private citizens and companies, not in the form of some sort of government legal action. I think (to use the American example) the KKK should be allowed to say whatever it wants. Now, if the owner of Bob's Delicatessen finds out that his employee, Joe, is a Klan member and is spouting off racist crap, he has every right to fire Joe. On the other hand, District Attorney Feargus McLawyerson should not be able to drag Joe into court and charge him with some crime.
I sometimes get freedom of speech mixed in with no consequence for your actions.

I truly believe that everyone has the right to be who they want to be. If someone wants to be a jerk then by all means that person should be a jerk. Legally there will be no consequence, but that doesn't mean that there will absolutely be no ramifications from other sources.

Actually PJ's post helped me see the difference.
Originally Posted by Prime Junta View Post
I believe very strongly in the right to offend, but I also believe very strongly in the right to get offended and act accordingly.

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September 3rd, 2009, 14:36
Originally Posted by skavenhorde View Post
Fair as in, he doesn't have the right to voice his opinion without some kind of consequence. If everyone was truly equal then he should have a right to his opinion without consequence. Freedom of speech is easy if everyone says "nice" things or the same thing.
Fair as in, he doesn't have the right to be crap at his job without some kind of consequence, which seems a pretty non controversial view of fair . . .
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September 3rd, 2009, 14:44
Originally Posted by Benedict View Post
Fair as in, he doesn't have the right to be crap at his job without some kind of consequence, which seems a pretty non controversial view of fair . . .
You might actually want to read my previous post before continuing further or we could just bicker for the hell of it

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September 3rd, 2009, 14:58
Originally Posted by skavenhorde View Post
You might actually want to read my previous post before continuing further or we could just bicker for the hell of it
Sorry, only read the first point and you seemed to be disagreeing with me, so as you can imagine I had to stomp that kind of reckless foolishness out as quickly as possible.
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September 3rd, 2009, 15:12
Update: he just published his apology. In quick translation:

Originally Posted by Esko Kiesi
I have resigned my position at VV-Auto Group Ltd today. I am sorry for the hurt feelings and damage I have caused with my poorly thought-out words, which were mostly intended as humor.

The views I expressed as an individual in no way represent Audi's or VV-Auto's values or working methods. I have worked together with hundreds of professionals to build a strong brand for Audi, and I sincerely wish that my thoughtless acts do not bring to naught this labor of many years.

I wish Audi, customers who drive Audis, and everybody working with Audi the best of success!
Classy apology, IMO. I get a feeling he won't make the same mistake again. (Nor do I think he'll have much trouble getting another job — after all, a third of the folks commenting felt that he suffered unjustly.)
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September 3rd, 2009, 15:29
Originally Posted by Prime Junta View Post
Update: he just published his apology. In quick translation:
Classy apology, IMO. I get a feeling he won't make the same mistake again. (Nor do I think he'll have much trouble getting another job — after all, a third of the folks commenting felt that he suffered unjustly.)
Maybe a sales director for a power tools company whose target market is less female and more chauvinist.

Or for Yorkie bars, if you have them and the similar marketing campaign where you are, otherwise this won't make sense.
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September 3rd, 2009, 15:29
In a small country where the management is rotated between various governments of organizations and corporations, I don't doubt either his chances to find some haven job.
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September 3rd, 2009, 16:21
Originally Posted by Prime Junta View Post
Update: he just published his apology. In quick translation:
Classy apology, IMO. I get a feeling he won't make the same mistake again. (Nor do I think he'll have much trouble getting another job — after all, a third of the folks commenting felt that he suffered unjustly.)
Well, as the offended feminazi I am, I fail to see anything classy about "Haha, saying women are mindless, untalented, over-emotional sex objects you should acquire when young and train to service you was just me being funny, but I'm really sorry they don't want to buy our cars now."

Regardless of free speech, which of course, I don't dispute his right to exercise, the guy's still a jerk, no matter how he tries to excuse his actions.

(And not only are your words long, they seem to delight in repeating letters like a Kalishnikov fires bullets, as well. )

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September 3rd, 2009, 16:23
Surely you don't question the man's sincerity?
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September 3rd, 2009, 16:35
Originally Posted by Rithrandil View Post
I think (to use the American example) the KKK should be allowed to say whatever it wants. Now, if the owner of Bob's Delicatessen finds out that his employee, Joe, is a Klan member and is spouting off racist crap, he has every right to fire Joe. On the other hand, District Attorney Feargus McLawyerson should not be able to drag Joe into court and charge him with some crime.
While I'm mostly in agreement with the majority opinion here, I want to play devil's advocate for a moment. If we are going to allow complete freedom on hire/fire, there are some potential consequences to consider.

Let's say Tyrell owns a soul food shop in Harlem, and he hires generic whitey JimmyJoeBob to work the grill. Let's assume that you can't taste any difference in the food Tyrell prepares versus the food JimmyJoeBob prepares. Now, one day, the customers notice that their soul food is being made by a white guy and they complain to Tyrell that such practice is wholly unacceptable and their business will go elsewhere until there's a proper brotha in the kitchen. (note- we now have a dollars-n-cents justification) Tyrell fires JJB, which is completely within his perogative in an "employment at will" legal structure, because JJB's skin color is having a negative impact on his business.

How's that gonna fly, folks? I intentionally reversed the roles so we don't have to address minority oppression, but imagine the shitstorm if the situation were the same but we're talking a grits-n-greens shop in Macon, Georgia and Tyrell was the one getting fired.

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September 3rd, 2009, 16:42
That's a totally different situation because the boss isn't discriminating culture is. In your example the boss is being discriminated against and would have grounds to take grits-n-greens to court.
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September 3rd, 2009, 16:43
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
While I'm mostly in agreement with the majority opinion here, I want to play devil's advocate for a moment. If we are going to allow complete freedom on hire/fire, there are some potential consequences to consider.

Let's say Tyrell owns a soul food shop in Harlem, and he hires generic whitey JimmyJoeBob to work the grill. Let's assume that you can't taste any difference in the food Tyrell prepares versus the food JimmyJoeBob prepares. Now, one day, the customers notice that their soul food is being made by a white guy and they complain to Tyrell that such practice is wholly unacceptable and their business will go elsewhere until there's a proper brotha in the kitchen. (note- we now have a dollars-n-cents justification) Tyrell fires JJB, which is completely within his perogative in an "employment at will" legal structure, because JJB's skin color is having a negative impact on his business.

How's that gonna fly, folks? I intentionally reversed the roles so we don't have to address minority oppression, but imagine the shitstorm if the situation were the same but we're talking a grits-n-greens shop in Macon, Georgia and Tyrell was the one getting fired.
There's a fallacy in your comparison, since to be accurate JimmyBob would have to not only cook the food but publically patronize and insult the customers racially as well. So, apples and oranges here, methinks. But an interesting situation.

@woges: I'm assuming that's sarcasm.

(Your earlier comment on the guy's sincerity)

Where there's smoke, there's mirrors.
Last edited by magerette; September 3rd, 2009 at 16:45. Reason: added clarification
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September 3rd, 2009, 16:44
Originally Posted by magerette View Post
@woges: I'm assuming that's sarcasm.
You'd be assuming correctly.
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September 3rd, 2009, 16:47
Originally Posted by woges View Post
You'd be assuming correctly.
Thank God. My sarcasm detector frequently malfunctions around here.

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September 3rd, 2009, 16:49
You don't think I've any respect for those monkeys with pencils do you?
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September 3rd, 2009, 17:18
Yeah it wasn't a perfect parallel, but it was the best I could do on short notice. Let's say the customers challenge JJB and he points out to them that skin color doesn't affect cooking ability, to which they get tremendously pissed since he couldn't possibly understand soul food. Now you've got a worker's words causing loss of business. Happier with the parallel?

I notice that nobody even attempted an answer. Ain't be gottin, mayhaps?

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September 3rd, 2009, 17:25
I still hang to the idea that the main factor at play is it being in a work situation. If the owner is losing business over it, however unfair and prejudiced it may be, reality seems to dictate that he do something about it. Maybe the guy could be given an alternate job in the busiiness, thus sidestepping the problem? I'm all about compromise. Or he could simply face off against his customers and see how it actually plays out—I would bet in the long run, if JimmyBillBob's cooking was that good, his customers would get over it.

EDIT: BTW, while I was condemning the Audi guy for being a total jerk above, I want to state I don't feel compelled to see him lose his job, though I think some sort of meaningful repercussions are in order in his situation, considering his place in the corporate hierarchy.

Where there's smoke, there's mirrors.
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September 3rd, 2009, 17:28
I don't agree the issue is only about money anyway but you'd have to prove JJB wrong or you'd have to compensate still. I don't think it would be difficult to prove PJ's example wrong as those laws are already written and signed which as a boss you should be fully aware of.
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