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Default Gothic 3 - Review @ Gamespot

December 7th, 2006, 04:06
"No wonder they kept it a secret till after the game was released!!"
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December 7th, 2006, 15:30
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
And the so called world of 'Oblivion' (through the gates) was terrible. Do you know of anyone who enjoyed that dull, boring and totally repetative part of the game?!! No wonder they kept it a secret till after the game was released!!
I enjoyed the first one. After that, they really sucked.
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December 7th, 2006, 16:19
Originally Posted by doctor_kaz View Post
I enjoyed the first one. After that, they really sucked.
That is an amazing thing … the first one was pretty interesting, at least in its contrast to the rest of the game … but even by the *second* one they were just tedious …

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December 7th, 2006, 16:28
You mean Arena by "the first one" ?
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December 7th, 2006, 16:43
Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer View Post
You mean Arena by "the first one" ?
No - I was talking about the Oblivion gate areas.

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December 7th, 2006, 17:01
I couldn't stand the oblivion realm areas. But at least you don't have to bother with them if you don't want to.

I don't know what you mean about having to play a fi/ma/assassin combo? I've never played anything like that - I've gone through several times with completely different character concepts and it's been great, and a different experience each time.

And I've even played a diplomatic character. As I've said before, you need some imagination and constraint, but if you put the effort it the game certainly rewards you.

I get plenty of reaction in my games though - maybe my RAI is working better than yours? It feels like a pretty alive place and I do enjoy just roleplaying in it.
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December 8th, 2006, 01:43
Arena was a good game. I really liked it!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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December 8th, 2006, 03:42
I have to agree, I was really excited when entering the first portal to Oblivion. I saved every few steps I took and expected horrors around every corner. By the time I entered my 3rd or 4th gate it was getting tedious though, just like every other type of dungeon. A shame really, as demonic planes hold great potential if you could help the demons for instance, or if they had any bigger cities and such there. Make them a faction and let it be possible to join them through the secret cult where you actually join for a short period of time.

As it is right now though, the whole plane of oblivion ended up being one of the biggest dissappointments in the game, as it was hyped up to be something amazing, and kept hidden untill release.
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December 8th, 2006, 04:18
Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
I don't know what you mean about having to play a fi/ma/assassin combo? I've never played anything like that - I've gone through several times with completely different character concepts and it's been great, and a different experience each time.
Sure you do. You might pretend the character has more depth and you might spend some time playing with alchemy (or whatever) but every quest line is linear and most are combat oriented and you are really just dealing damage in various ways.

And I've even played a diplomatic character. As I've said before, you need some imagination and constraint, but if you put the effort it the game certainly rewards you.
I can do that with any game — it's not really fair to credit the game mechanics when you are doing that work.

Give me an example or two of recognisable Oblivion quests (ie, ones everyone might remember) and exactly how your diplomatic character influenced the game or changed the course of the gameworld or completed the quest using diplomatic skills.

I get plenty of reaction in my games though - maybe my RAI is working better than yours? It feels like a pretty alive place and I do enjoy just roleplaying in it.
I think the RAI is braindead but I don't really mean that and I'm not looking to just rag on Oblivion. Do the game inhabitants react to the awful gates that keep popping up? Does anything happen if I ignore them? Can I really change the course of the world?

Again, I'm not suggesting every other RPG necessarily does a better but when critics say they can really roleplay in Oblivion (to go back to where we started), what they really mean is they graphics etc are so good, they feel like they are the one holding the bow. They're really "immersed". That's a good thing…but no different to any other good action game — Half Life, perhaps.

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December 8th, 2006, 05:10
Good points Dhruin; I agree. There's not much variety in how to solve any of the quests!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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December 8th, 2006, 14:30
Oblivion was also a piss-poorly balanced game. Archery and stealth were woefully underpowered and that crappy level scaling didn't help at all. I had to shoot most monsters fifty times with a bow to kill them even if I snuck up on them with my 100% stealth skill. The level-scaling was an awful and lazy solution to the problem of presenting a challenge to the player throughout the game. Oblivion is the first game that I have every played that motivates you to to not gain levels. If there is one area that the Gothic series dominates its competition, it's that the handcrafting of the world and the way that the game subtly manages the challenge level. Oblivion had what seemed like a lot of lazy solutions to design problems that were necessary because the developers focused too much on breadth instead of depth.
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December 8th, 2006, 19:49
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
Good points Dhruin; I agree. There's not much variety in how to solve any of the quests!!
I disagree - I thought there was more variety than in most other games, g3 and nwn2 included. I thought the 'murder the dinner guests' type quests were fantastic. There were plenty of investigation and evidence gathering ones which weren't just a case of fighting your way through somewhere and getting an item, you have to go and follow people unseen etc.

I agree that there wasn't much world-wide reaction to your actions except as they applied to the main quest, however the RAI did provide good local reaction to completion of local quests. I don't know about other critics, but when I say I enjoy roleplaying in Oblivion, I mean I really enjoy taking the role and living the life of an imaginary character, and I feel I have the most freedom to do that in Oblivion - certainly more than NWN2 and still more than G3 in several aspects.

So yeah, ignore the main plot stuff, I think that was a bit naff, but on the microscale it was much better. Solely IMO of course. But every Elderscolls game has been a bit like that, just as every Gothic game has had such reliance on combat, or every Bioware/IE/OE game has had such reliance on fed-ex. None of them are perfect, but all are very enjoyable and I don't feel the need to try and find fault with them.
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December 9th, 2006, 00:52
Those murder investigations were very linear and could only be solved one way!! That was the point we were making, not that there wasn't variety in the type of quests available!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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December 9th, 2006, 01:32
Any game that does not allow for tough choices in-game is not really a role-playing game. Roaming about and hunting deer is not roleplaying a hunter; it is a simulation and there are better games for that (deerhunter).
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December 9th, 2006, 01:36
Originally Posted by doctor_kaz View Post
Oblivion was also a piss-poorly balanced game. Archery and stealth were woefully underpowered
Mais, au contraire, mon ami . Not sure with what mods you played but in my unmodded (at least as far as game balance went) version of Oblivion, stealth + bow was what helped me out of the "scaling trap" (I played a mostly non-combat character and climbed levels too fast for my comparatively poor combat skills in the beginning). I would have been screwed without the 4x (I think it was) damage bonus that you got from a successful covert shot. Bow + stealth were awesome tools to bring down an enemy's health considerably via a first strike attack. If you managed to remain undetected due to a high sneak skill, most enemies didn't survive the second shot. I'd almost say that bow + stealth were overpowered. Also because enemies in dungeons had a really hard time finding you in the dark. With a high sneak skill you could keep shooting at them from just a few meters and they still wouldn't detect you.

I had to shoot most monsters fifty times with a bow to kill them even if I snuck up on them with my 100% stealth skill.
You can not honestly be talking about Oblivion or at least not your own gaming experience. Did you read that some place else and copy & paste?

The level-scaling was an awful and lazy solution to the problem of presenting a challenge to the player throughout the game.
Partially true. Yes. I didn't like it either. However, it was only for the first half of the game or so (until about level 20) and not throughout the whole game (assuming "whole game" = finishing every major quest line) that you really noticed. There wasn't much difference in the scaling of loot or mobs beyond level 20. It felt rather stable from there on.
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December 9th, 2006, 02:41
Hmm…I found the bow underpowered in open combat. Yes, the sneak attack in a dungeon worked OK but in the open, I'd have 20 arrows sticking out of something like a pin-cushion. I used a mod to bump the damage up.

@kalniel, you side-stepped actually answering. Oblivion did have some nice little inventive quest stories - I was very pleased with the effort on quest variety - but absolutely no choices…hence, no real roleplaying.

Again, how did being a diplomatic character (or evil or good or Argonian or anything else) affect the murder investigation?

Just out of interest, here's (roughly) how the murder quest went for me. I followed one guy around a corner of the bottom level just out of sight of a second and killed him. The other guy came around the corner a second later and completely ignored the dead body. I went upstairs and two people were asleep…I killed the first and instantly the second leaped out of bed like they'd been given an electric shock — then immediately went back to sleep. I went over and stabbed them and another walked through the door as I was doing it….but didn't react to me murdering someone asleep, so I was walked over and stabbed them to death.

That's my RAI experience (but that isn't the thrust of my overall complaint).

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December 9th, 2006, 02:58
Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
Hmm…I found the bow underpowered in open combat. Yes, the sneak attack in a dungeon worked OK but in the open, I'd have 20 arrows sticking out of something like a pin-cushion. I used a mod to bump the damage up.
OK, I don't recall the exact formula that Oblivion used for damage calculations or which stats were factored into the ranged damage output but it wasn't that bad from what I can remember (IIRC, all mobs went down after ~5-8 hits at medium difficulty when fighting in the open).
I have to admit though that I lowered the difficulty after I finished the quest lines (including the main quest) just to be able to kill enemies faster. There just was no point to fighting anymore. I knew exactly that to kill mob x I needed *exactly* y amount of arrows. And I had mastered the "art" of kiting (running in squares/circles to avoid getting hit) to perfection by then so artifically inflating the length of combat just seemed like a big waste of time when I really just wanted to finish up a few of the remaining quests from my diary.
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December 9th, 2006, 04:07
Dhruin, I don't think choice equals roleplaying. DX2 had three choices to get past the guard, or get into the building, etc. I think choice coupled with real consequence can foster roleplaying. A different way to killl x, or get y, or make it to z, still just equals killing x, or getting y, or making it to z.
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December 9th, 2006, 05:40
@Mo, Your recollection is probably pretty accurate…but 8 (or whatever) shots while kiting around just annoyed me too much so I didn't feel happy with it until I bumped the damage up.

@Roqua, no, choice doesn't equal roleplaying, but choice is absolutely required to roleplay. There needs to be a means to achieve something that is reasonably appropriate for different characters. But that's really just a semantic argument in the end so I'm comfortable saying choice is at the heart of a good RPG experience.

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December 11th, 2006, 12:14
Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
Again, how did being a diplomatic character (or evil or good or Argonian or anything else) affect the murder investigation?
It didn't of course, but why would you accept that quest if you were being a diplomatic character?

You have to use your imagination in games like that. I obviously can't explain my point well enough, so I accept your opinion that you could not roleplay in Oblivion. I however have a different opinion and greatly enjoy roleplaying, still, in Oblivion. Everyone is different and needs different things from a game in order to be able to enjoy it.

I really don't like that fact that Gothic 3 gives you so little choice over the character. To me that is one of the things that makes it a lesser roleplaying experience, and in that respect Oblivion has far greater choice. However that's not the only thing I care about in a game, so I still enjoy Gothic 3 despite it having (IMO) less choice.

edit: to further prove how different our experiences of the game are, my first time through Oblivion was with a hunter/ranger type character, using the bow almost exclusively - I love ranged weapons in Oblivion and don't find them underpowered at all
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