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Default Gothic 3 - Review @ Game Zone

December 6th, 2006, 19:27
Well if you don't see the connection to violence being mass produced for cosumer consumption then is it my fault or does it mean that it doesn't exist (i.e. my theroy)?

Are you suggesting as an example if you didn't know the theroy of gravity, that gravity wouldn't exist?
Does this also mean that you think your beliefs/lack of effect object reality?
As in tell me you believe gravity does not exist, then go jump off a 4 story building to prove it?

Actually I used references form Germany and US, also I cleary wasn't attacking the country I live or Germany but crimality of the corrupted whom cause the violence to be preicated on the public and why they use violence.

If knowing why its being done (i.e. to seperate) frightens you then you should just keep ignoring it so you can feel comfortable.

I haven't ever been in the politcal forum but the links are obvious of what I posted to the current discussion are cleary linked.

Also insulting country or religon.
Well insulting is the key, right?
I gave specific, verifiable examples so its reality, now if accurate infomation offends you or someone else it sounds more like your unwillingness to include reality in your beliefs.

Eidt
Besides the fact that I am not ranting or calling names clearly shows my intend is not to be insulting, as a matter of fact its completly oppisite.
Do I gain anything from saying this, am I getting rich, expoilting women, sending thousands of innocents to murder 100s of thousands or other innocents?
While I have many faults and you can choose to believe what you wish as far as I am concerned, as long as you don't cause harm to someone else, I am not aware of any blood on my hands.
Violience is used a a controling issue whether anyone believes it or cares.
Last edited by Acleacius; December 6th, 2006 at 20:01.
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December 6th, 2006, 20:17
Gimme a break - you drew a direct parallel between the US and NAZI Germany! Anything else you had to say was moot at that point - it is sort of like debating whether racial preferences help or hurt and imbuing your argument with racial slurs … any other argument is lost.

And honestly, I am not sure what theory you are pushing? That competition = downfall of society. That marketing is a powerful tool that can be used to sway more than just buying dollars? That is obvious, and has been demonstrated. But that is a generalist theory, not specific to individuals - otherwise all of those attempts to ban violent video games would have merit. I'm not sure what else you are saying …

— Mike
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December 6th, 2006, 21:20
The thread basically boils down to "cops 'n robber shows, parents trying to prevent the sexualization of children, and the unholy sin of people going out and buying things that they want with the money theyve earned, are bad and uniquely American things."

Nazi Germany just got predictably wheeled out, as usually the case with such "arguments". See Godwin's Law

Oh that darn "T" rating! ='.'=
Last edited by xSamhainx; December 6th, 2006 at 21:41.
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December 6th, 2006, 21:45
@xsamhainx-i'm sorry if it was just you misunderstanding me or the opposite but how is decreasing violence on television (not what is shown but how much of it) and offering alternatives bad. we do live in a democracy don't we. maybe you should read 1984 for the first time or again since your allusion to it seems completely the opposite of what orwell felt. the television i was talking about breeds fear and distance from others(how much it actually does is debateable, but it does so regardless). and why would you be forced to watch non-violent programming anymore than i am to watch the shows i reffer to. there should be something for everyone, but to be flooded with too much of the same dulls the brain like dragging a knife across the desert. and i am not a fan of happy endings, which rarely exist truthfully.

i don't blame anyone, for i'm just as guilty as anyone, i just want the world to be a kinder place, not the more and more fear driven one it is becoming. we all have answers which could work but just treating each other more humanely is enough for me.

i even bought this game months ago but have been to 'scarred' to play it as it might change or get in the way of the games i'm currently playing. and i'm not advocating this game, which would be unfair since i haven't even played it, i was just wondering if anyone else have heard of it since its made by a fairly well known developer (if you like city builers that is).

its the game on top
http://www.breakawaygames.com/games.html

when i have the courage to play it i'll try to also have the courage to start writing game reviews
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December 6th, 2006, 22:35
I was not saying that offering alternatives is bad, merely saying that it sounded more to me like "alternatives" was not the goal at all, but the use of television as some sort of mental conditioning. If we all just watch "kinder & gentler" programming (by whose standards?) with better conflict resolution, we'll all turn a new leaf and live in peace and harmony. This is the solution for violence in society, our society in particular. This of course is predicated on the assumption that we're all "sexually repressed violence junkies" as you so put it, that I guess need a television-administered mental softening. Hey speak for yourself and your family and friends, because you certainly arent speaking for me and mine, let alone the nation.

Are you omniscient? Just wondering…

Perhaps not, because it seems that you have a very limited view of what people actually watch in the first place. Have you ever heard of the Discovery Channel? You know, there's a whole lot more television out there that people watch besides Cops 'n Robbers on CBS every night. People like myself, and for that matter my family, seldom watch anything but Discovery, History, Animal Planet, Turner Movie Classics, and so on and so forth. How many people are like us? Cable is a pretty successful thing….

If someone's house is stuck on The Violence Channel, that sounds to me like a personal problem, curious.
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December 7th, 2006, 00:26
i was talking about free (non-cable, dish, satelite) television. not everyone can afford the $50 or more a month. yes there are lots of good cable stations and programs, but although the majority of america may have cable i do not and haven't for years. networks may have 'lost ground' to quality cable programming over the years but the majority of 'most watched shows' are still on network television. i wasn't trying to offend or judge you or you family, sorry if i did.

and my phrase of violence and sexual repression was an exageration, so i apoligize for that. i mearly wanted to point out the descreapancy in that they rarely seem to be treated/viewed equally, though not that they should be. an extremely liberal person could not let their child watch any violent movies, tv ectera but they could be 'sexually liberated'(or whatever that means). while on the other hand a parent could buy their kid every violent game out there, take them hunting, but not talk to them about sex, or tell them they couldn't have it and so on. obviously most people are in the middle with the imaginary mean set a little towards the violence acceptance side. and its irrelevant what my views or anyones views are since actual game rating systems, and fcc regulations dictate what we can watch anyhow.
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December 7th, 2006, 00:49
I'm not a fan of violent TV shows, so I mainly watch sport like the NFL and NHL!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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December 7th, 2006, 05:13
None of this is an attack on anyone, well except maybe some corrupt governent officials whom mislead for personal gain of wealth and power.

txa1265
"you drew a direct parallel between the US and NAZI Germany!"
No I didn't.
Maybe you mean by presenting 2 factual statments from two different officials from two different governments, I gave an example of a propaganda technique sucessfully?

"Anything else you had to say was moot at that point"
Not really, actually your trying to change the subject.

"it is sort of like debating whether racial preferences help or hurt and imbuing your argument with racial slurs … any other argument is lost."
Actiually not, I am talking about object reality, you are trying to side track about factless racial ad hominem attacks.
We can certianly have a factual discussion about racial inequality if you wish.

"I am not sure what theory you are pushing?"
Nope, none of those.
We were talking about violence, in games where it comes from and why, unless I misunderstood the thread.

My point was following up about violence in TV and why violence is ok here in the US but not sex, mentioning that propaganda is used to do it.
Propaganda of fear which is used to divide nations and scare the public.
If you recall after the attacks we were not asked to sacrfice in this time of war unlike ever before, were only asked to stay home and shop online if it was to unsafe to go to the malls.

Not only did I show what was done, but how and why they do it.
Realising that propaganda is being used against us by our own governmanet is not a direct corlation, propaganda is a technique used by many and differeing governaments.

To me not talking about any subject is a copout, but I know there are people whom can't, won't and don't talk about certian things and they have that right.

"generalist theory, not specific to individuals - otherwise all of those attempts to ban violent video games would have merit. I'm not sure what else you are saying …"
I wasn't saying that and I don't have a theory.

What are you asking me, are you saying you want me to name a single person responsible for all violence?

xSamhainx
" down to "cops 'n robber shows"
Then I misunderstood the thread, I though we were talking about violence.
All I did was give a factual example of the technique being used.


In general.
I used two examples equally, I don't hear anyone complaining that I used Ashcroft and I certianly didn't use Hitler but I would have no problem with it if it was applicable.

Godwin clearly says overuse and yet I didn't use him once.

Now I know the premise of these posts and this thread is to more than make ad hominem attacks on factual accurate information, corect?

Is this maybe frustration at being duped for the last 6 years here in the US, I am not sure where the confusion is located?

A lot of people fell for and backed alot of very horrible and violent crimes here in the US, so I can imagine its/was painful realization, very very sad.


xSamhainx
"use of television as some sort of mental conditioning"
You mean you don't think it is?
How was the slimest of majorities conviced to invade a sovern nation, whom had never directly attacked the US nor was it cappable at all and no a single verifiable piece of information of even an progam for nukes much less being able to fire one of in 45 min according to our brilliant leader?
How has the cirmes against humanity, murder of 100s of thousands of innocents, the torture and maining thousands and the rapes of childern in front of there parents.
How has this been able to continue?
(references above come from General Togobala's (sp) Report way back in 2003, iir , the American Red Cross, John Hopkins institute, Doctors without Borders and not to mentioned leaked CIA documents.)

"by whose standards?"

Do you say that about Peniciallin if you an infection, or when talking about geography of the earth being round or if you know someone whom need medical treatment for terminal illness when a cure exist for it or what about questioning the need for stiches if you or your child has a sever cut/laseraion?

Or perhaps you go to your local religous leader when you are sick, or want your life expectancy rasied from about 40 (pre 1600 about) to (whats the averge sicence has brought us too?) 80?
Or when you need your roads repaired, your rural water, sewage and electrictly to work correctly?
How about your computer repair, you internet connection, the safety of your food supply.
I would like the name of this religion and there phone number?

Or do you take those for granted because science has done a damn fine job or proving it objectivly as possible?

Corwin
"I'm not a fan of violent TV shows, so I mainly watch sport like the NFL and NHL!!"
Roflmao.
Last edited by Acleacius; December 7th, 2006 at 05:44.
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December 7th, 2006, 06:17
Discussion ended on my part, I've said my piece and you can take from it or take it however you wish.

I very rarely talk politics online anymore because it's time consuming and alternates between mind-numbingly boring, redundant, and at times absolutely infuriating interaction with people whom I otherwise like and enjoy talking to. Games and other assorted miscelleni are the order of the day when I come here, not wasting time on circular and convoluted discussions which quite frankly dont mean shit at the end of the day. Ive got better things to do with my time.

I usually avoid such threads and indeed forums altogether, but sometimes, such as in the case of this thread, it has unfortunately come to me, like a bad case of the flu. It's my own fault for chiming in.

Peanut Gallery, carry on..
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December 7th, 2006, 08:07
Ah, Sammy, why don't you say what you really mean!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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December 7th, 2006, 14:08
Hey Ace. As a German, you might not understand this, so let me spell it out for you: people cannot think rationally about Hitler and the Nazis. Hitler and Co. are the ultimate in evil. Everything associated with them is tainted by that evil. As the ADL puts it, "To write of Hitler without the context of millions of innocents brutally murdered is an insult to all of their memories." That context intrudes into any discussion of any aspect of that period in Germany's history. So when you connect someone (or his country, or whatever) to the Nazis in some way, that person has to defend himself (country, etc.) from the charge of "being like Hitler", even though you didn't make that charge, because he knows that the people around him cannot think rationally about Hitler and the Nazis. And it kills the conversation. So don't do it.
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December 7th, 2006, 14:32
Originally Posted by Acleacius View Post
txa1265
"you drew a direct parallel between the US and NAZI Germany!"
No I didn't.
Maybe you mean by presenting 2 factual statments from two different officials from two different governments, I gave an example of a propaganda technique sucessfully?
OK, let me help you out:
Originally Posted by Acleacius View Post
How does the it go.
<snip quote> Hermann Goering, Nuremburg.

<snip quote> J Ashcroft, Attorney General

Notice any similarities?
Perhaps your intent was to compare propoganda techniques, but as abbaon notes bringing the Nazis in as a point of comparison naturally leads to a generally sense of comparison between the two subjects. So instead of making a point about how propoganda in some nations makes certain things taboo, you appeared to have taken the stance of many (mostly European, which was my original confusion) trolls in forums who say US = Nazis, Bush = Hitler, therefore Ashcroft = Goering.

My initial point was about how the threshold for getting a 'mature' status on a product (R for movie, M for game) in the US is lower for sex than for violence - but it is lower still for drugs. I would bet a quest like the blending swampweed and getting Den wasted like in G2 would have hit M status as quickly as seeing b00bs. But in a way that makes sense - these games have what at their core? Combat.

— Mike
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December 7th, 2006, 17:34
mike i agree with you, but i think everyone is being a little harsh on acleacius. he may have been comparing leaders of our country to nazis but not the us. germany is not equal to nazis any more than the all of us americans are responsible for war crimes commited by our leaders or leaders of any other country. but yes i would agree that it is far off topic. i skimmed the wikipedia since on goering since i didn't really no much about him. the extent to my knowledge on him was from empire earth. this quote sounds like a quote we could hear from ashcroft present day now that he is no longer a cabinent member and is possibly going to be tried for war crimes himself (in germany no less). quote is from goering—

Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. …Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

that was a great quest in gothic 2. did you do the master shipbuilder quest in lago that was kind of 'r' rated and definately a 'funny' part in the game.
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December 8th, 2006, 06:14
xSamhainx
I know how you feel, it has taken a long time to write in this thread.
I would have never had time if I was trying to care for kids and a family.
I know if you did have the time you would be offering helpful insightful information as usual, all with a smile.

abbaon
I understand and your are correct but its more important to talk about it because even if people turn away, not to offer truths will deny any possibility of resolution or freedom from any type of addiction of propaganda.

In this instance references to violence being accepted over sex in the US per games but obviously its systemic here in the US and we probably are not alone.

The funny thing, if I wanted to draw a connection with so much accurate information available from official government documents to outright admissions it would be a piece of cake.
Especially compared to getting people to recognizing how much propaganda effects them everyday.

The most recent study iir has kids seeing 10, 000 commercials by the age of 4 (?) directed at them with pretty colors selling them addiction to sugar, salt and fats.
Can guess what comes next after the addictions to sugar, salt and fats?

That’s devastating at least to me, since I care about societies and people not corporations or criminal governments that allow the publics to be subjugated to this crap propaganda for extra money in the reelection funds and self-serving power

txa1265
"Perhaps your intent was to compare propaganda techniques"
I was speaking in accuracies and they were not comparisons.
Your confusion is perfectly understandable, hell if I didn't misunderstand 10, 000 times a day I wouldn't feel alive.

Goering is an expert on Propaganda regardless of his affiliations and he is telling people how to protect themselves against it so it doesn’t happen again, not because he is promoting doing it.

If the World represented by the prosecutor Robert Jackson can utter one of the most profoundly basic and fundamental principals of humanity, "to pass these defendants a poison chalice is to put it to our lips as well".
How can we turn our back to the knowledge passed on to us through Justice, Humanity and Compassion?
Where should we step if not here?
Who would be drinking from the chalice, today?

Ashcroft is intended as an example of how propaganda and violence is condoned and used wrongfully.
I am not sure anyone can read his words and misunderstand them, now some may choose to ignore them, sort of Intentional Ignorance but it is still a truth.

" in the US is lower for sex than for violence - but it is lower still for drugs."
Right and it did get an M, but honestly I am not sure which was the reason or all.


curious
" he may have been comparing leaders of our country to nazis but not the us."
Thanks.
Not really comparing them in this case (that would be too easy) but trying to be as accurate as possible.

Thanks for putting up a fuller quote, certainly considering I managed to be confusing.
Me confusing, never!

Its possible to use proaganda techniques with out the regiume, which is what Leo Struass (sp) studied, becasue he wanted to know how it was done.
Iir he was a Polish/Jewish immigrant whom came to the US shorty before or after the war started, it became his obsession really and drove him to be very reclusive.
According to the website, Project for the New American Century, run by Wolfiwiz, Rumsfield, Perle and others since the mid 90s all currently on the US gonvernment payroll states they studied under Struass.

Another example could be Mussolini, when asked why Fascism?
He said. "Fascism?, Lets be honest here, this is corporatism." or something close it was in Italian, appoligies I didn't have time to look that one up.


"he is no longer a cabinent member and is possibly going to be tried for war crimes himself (in germany no less."
Thats Rumsfeld, your thinking of but very close.

"master shipbuilder quest in lago"
I couldn't stop laughing.


If there is a better example I hope someone whom knows will share it.
Last edited by Acleacius; December 8th, 2006 at 07:06.
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December 8th, 2006, 07:32
I just skimmed the review snippet briefly; it seems to be a fair review of Gothic 3.
I would just like to addtthat in Europe the www.pegi.info board rated Gothic 3
16 + for violence (same rating as Oblivion). However, Gothic 2 was rated 12+ but in the US, Gothic 2 was rated 17+ (Mature), apparently since there is a midlly suggestive [censored] scene - in a cutscene….
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December 8th, 2006, 09:16
kind of backtracking but there's some games out there that acknowledge the use of 'safe sex' though different methods, ie having condoms in games. i remember back in grade school my friends dad had the original lesuire suit larry on his ibm. the only thing i remember from that game was that you had to get a condom and use it before you slept with a 'prostitute'. that was probably more impacting than any of the 'educational' movies i saw. also played maniac mansion on that same ibm…that was a great game.
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December 9th, 2006, 03:54
I remember the opening of Bloodlines with all the condoms on the table.
Seems there was a RPG or Action game where you found a comdom but there was never any use for it, gezz I really drawing a blank on the name.
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