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December 14th, 2006, 00:00
Originally Posted by PatrickWeekes View Post
Definitely understandable. My only answer — the best one that I can realistically give (since the PR guys have already said stuff like "Your galaxy map shows thousands of planets, and you can visit them all!" and then the programmers wiped the Mountain Dew off their keyboards) is to say that nobody at the company liked opening up a worldmap and seeing two locations. The decisions that needed to be made for that not to happen again have been made. M.E. may not have as many worlds as you want (freely? gah. no. really, no. there are worlds. they get unlocked. you can go to them. plots happen. but it's not Oblivion.), but it's gonna be a lot bigger than KotOR.
Patrick, your replies are a refreshing change from the usual hype we get, but, huh, I should perhaps warn you that if you continue posting I may never buy another Bio game again !
Allright, joking aside, the latest ME video pretty much made it clear how things are going to be when it comes to exploration of the universe. So let's blame the graphics and the VO.
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December 14th, 2006, 01:00
Originally Posted by Cormac View Post
Allright, joking aside, the latest ME video pretty much made it clear how things are going to be when it comes to exploration of the universe. So let's blame the graphics and the VO.
I dunno. The video is accurate as far as what it says. More worlds than KotOR. Hell, several TIMES as many worlds as KotOR. Some worlds are as big as KotOR worlds, and others are smaller, like dungeons in a fantasy game.

Again, not Oblivion. But if you want a big game, it's gonna be a big game.

And again again, the industry is changing. Going from "interactive novel" to "interactive movie" hit the industry hard. As we stabilize and adapt, expect things to keep shifting. In some ways, the games we all loved playing are gone forever. In other ways, they're going to come back better than ever.

I didn't get this job because I wanted to strip the games down to 20 areas and 10 hours of gameplay. I got it because I could complain intelligently about being framed for killing those paladins in BG2, discuss the coolness of the revelation montage cutscene in KotOR, and talk about solo-ing through Hordes with a Bard/Cleric/Shadowdancer. I got it because I like playing these games.

And I can tell you that yeah, it COULD end up sucking — that could happen. But if it goes as planned, you're gonna have a lot of worlds to go kill stuff in, and a pretty epic story that should give you a good time.
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December 14th, 2006, 03:31
PatrickWeekes speaking of the interactive movie shift do you guys now have your own movie/cutscene department?

Iir in KotOR you guys had LA do much of the movies and voice work, to help with the development time frame and since I am intrested in JE and ME with these being your properties or is this the transition your refering too?

While I really thought you guys did a great job with the engine you had on KotOR, I was also very impressed with what Troikia was able to achieve with the Source engine in the dialogue interactions and obviously the facial expressions with Bloodlines.
Would that be a something you guys are intrested in more realistic facial expressions?

Thanks.
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December 14th, 2006, 03:48
Originally Posted by Acleacius View Post
PatrickWeekes speaking of the interactive movie shift do you guys now have your own movie/cutscene department?

Iir in KotOR you guys had LA do much of the movies and voice work, to help with the development time frame and since I am intrested in JE and ME with these being your properties or is this the transition your refering too?
We've got Cinematics guys for the cutscenes and Cinematic Designers for anything involving expressions and movement during conversation. It's a lot more involved than that, but honestly, not to me. I just write the words.

And to be fair, I wasn't around for KotOR. (If a product has shipped, I wasn't around for it. I'm nobody.) I don't know what we had for them, and how much help we had from Lucas on the VO and the movies. My impression was that we did that ourselves (and lucked out by getting a VO Director who was a huge Star Wars fan and was thus WAAAAAAAY into our story), but I could be misunderstanding other people's use of "we".

Would that be a something you guys are intrested in more realistic facial expressions?
As I understand it, we developed some stuff in house. I don't know if there wasn't anything on the market that did what we needed (expression changes in mid-line, for example), or if we just wanted to have our own proprietary tool to kick.

But yeah — getting facial effects to be fast and cheap greatly reduces the cost per line, which in turn reduces the cost per plot, and eventually lets you make a bigger game.
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December 14th, 2006, 05:28
PatrickWeekes
" I just write the words."
Very impressive, words are very (if not the most) important in games.
Even with great gameplay, games are nothing but deathmatch and CTF <shivers> , without the words to draw us into the story.

What moved you to write, any great books, movies, games?
Of course I would have asked if it was the groupies, the reason so many guys get in the music biz, since you mentioned you were married figured I be stick to the classics.

You mention you haven't shipped does this mean ME is your first title?
You guys must be really psyched with enough energy and adrenaline to light up a city block.

"My impression was that we did that ourselves"
I probably got confused.
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December 14th, 2006, 21:29
I don't really get the whole shift from 'interactive novel' to 'interactive movie.' If I want to go see a movie, then I will go the to cinema to watch a movie. To me, games should be liked books or novels, telling great stories. This is, of course, only MY personal opinion.

My point is also this, that games are not movies, they are games, and should be treated like ther own (entertainment) product, imo.
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December 14th, 2006, 21:52
Originally Posted by aries100 View Post
My point is also this, that games are not movies, they are games, and should be treated like ther own (entertainment) product, imo.
They are indeed. But you've got to have some frame of reference. From a writing perspective (and that's the only perspective in which I meant it), it's a good analogy. In Baldur's Gate and NWN, you could have a big ol' mess of text up there on the screen. As soon as full-VO hit the gaming world, that no longer worked. When facial animations improved to the point where you could tell whether an NPC was angry, lines like:

"How can you say that? Never have I been so angry!"

had to change to become:

"How can you say that?"

That's because the real reason that "Never have I been so angry!" was in there was to explain to the player that the NPC was angry — not sad, not hurt, not curious. With VO and good face FX, the line is superfluous. The player is gonna get that the NPC is angry. We can show. We don't need to tell.

When I write fiction, I need to put in markers to say that somebody is angry. I can do it in the text like that, or I can do it by adding "…he exclaimed angrily." In a movie, you don't need a playful imp lurking next to the actor to tell the audience "Hey, this dude's angry," unless the dude is a brooding guy who hides his emotions, in which case you do that by having Steve Buscemi co-star and say, "Whoah, hang on, hang on, no need to get like that," at the appropriate times.

So Jade Empire has less of that type of talk than KotOR, and Mass Effect will have even less. In the long run, this is good — it saves the words for where they'll do the most good and enable actual roleplaying and suchlike.
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December 14th, 2006, 23:11
Jaz
"And I have a new DVD drive as well!"
Dang that was fast.
"And thanks for the tips"
Np maybe we should start a GoD thread, of course at the expense of everyone making fun of us for liking this game.

PatrickWeekes
Ok, so in regards to writing in general, the most frustrating thing to me is, we are given a choice of how to respond based on how we are RPing.
Why don't we see a set format of replies in games, meaning something like;
1 LG
2 NG
3 CG
4 TN
Often times I will be given a line I think is just a snarky or joking response, yet it will throw the conversation of in an evil direction.
Another example is if normally good response line are in #1 and evil are #4, they switch them, moving the good response.
This makes it seem like the writers are trying to trick us instead of letting us play along type.

Is this legitimate concern, if not why does this happen or seem to happen?

Thanks.
Last edited by Acleacius; December 14th, 2006 at 23:43.
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December 14th, 2006, 23:54
Originally Posted by Acleacius View Post
Ok, so in regards to writing in general, the most frustrating thing to me is, we are given a choice of how to respond based on how we are RPing.
Why don't we see a set format of replies in games…
Easy answer? Because people would go ballistic if they didn't feel like they were getting to choose exactly what they were going to say. That's why MASS EFFECT has the paraphrases. That way you get to see mostly what you're going to say, but it can still sound good and be surprising when it comes out of your character's mouth.

Often times I will be given a line I think is just a snarky or joking response, yet it will throw the conversation of in an evil direction.
I hate that. Other people here hate that. I want to be sarcastic without getting dark side points.

Best answer I have is that it's an imperfect system. You are occasionally going to misread a line that the writers put in there, thinking it's sarcastic when we meant for it to b e evil. This is why I prefer to be defined by my actions and not my words. To me, choosing whether to be sarcastic with the dryad when you come back to deliver the magic acorn isn't roleplaying. Choosing whether to help the dryad or the evil necromancer is roleplaying.
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December 15th, 2006, 05:16
PatrickWeekes
"That's why MASS EFFECT has the paraphrases. ………"
Execellent news.

You know by contrast I would have to say my favorite dialogue moments have been when I have been able to convey a feeling to a NPC with dialogue choices.
An example of this which really sticks out for me would be in Bloodlines speaking to Jeanette.
Her looks aside it was a very good feeling to be able to make an NPC laugh and really feel like you acomplished a joke or flirt.
Of course it's been done before but never with that type of impact, range of emotional expression and visually timed so well, of course it could have been me playing a Malk.

Its like the game Jaz and I were refering to not a really popular title, for the standard reasons not enough RPG for the RPG fans and not enough Action for the Action fans, that aside in 1997 when the intro moive started it was the most breath taking view of a castle and moat flyby, better looking than anything before it at the time.
Well it impressed me anyway.

I am certianly thrilled you guys take story and depth of character interaction so seriously, not to mention how much research and advancement of a genre, its what has always drawn me to games.

So, thanks.
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December 15th, 2006, 06:36
Originally Posted by Acleacius View Post
Jaz
"And I have a new DVD drive as well!"
Dang that was fast.
"And thanks for the tips"
Np maybe we should start a GoD thread, of course at the expense of everyone making fun of us for liking this game.
Well, hubby sells these things. I just had to go down to storage and pick one. As for the thread - go ahead !

Back on topic - if alignment was dependent on the number of sarcastic answers given, I'd be NE for sure. But how to measure intention? In the light of this I agree that alignment should be defined by actions and not always by words alone. Although words can indeed hurt.

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December 15th, 2006, 10:10
I liked the way Bloodlines with Humanity and iir KotOR (its been awhile) Light/Dark worked , you were safe from an evil hit as long as you didn't threaten someones health, life or require/demand a reward before you would save/help someone.

The basic premise to me seems that the PC should always be a N, unless the story calls for LG Pally or LE Necro, so joking, scarcasm, snarky, and smartass (JSSS) should all be evil free.
Now of course if your using an influence system and trying to gain with a NPC if you use JSSS those should be considered N, so no points negitive or positive.

Well guess that's my 2 cents.
Last edited by Acleacius; December 15th, 2006 at 10:17.
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December 17th, 2006, 11:22
Originally Posted by PatrickWeekes View Post
They are indeed. But you've got to have some frame of reference. From a writing perspective (and that's the only perspective in which I meant it), it's a good analogy. In Baldur's Gate and NWN, you could have a big ol' mess of text up there on the screen. As soon as full-VO hit the gaming world, that no longer worked. When facial animations improved to the point where you could tell whether an NPC was angry, lines like:

"How can you say that? Never have I been so angry!"

had to change to become:

"How can you say that?"

That's because the real reason that "Never have I been so angry!" was in there was to explain to the player that the NPC was angry — not sad, not hurt, not curious. With VO and good face FX, the line is superfluous. The player is gonna get that the NPC is angry. We can show. We don't need to tell.

When I write fiction, I need to put in markers to say that somebody is angry. I can do it in the text like that, or I can do it by adding "…he exclaimed angrily." In a movie, you don't need a playful imp lurking next to the actor to tell the audience "Hey, this dude's angry," unless the dude is a brooding guy who hides his emotions, in which case you do that by having Steve Buscemi co-star and say, "Whoah, hang on, hang on, no need to get like that," at the appropriate times.

So Jade Empire has less of that type of talk than KotOR, and Mass Effect will have even less. In the long run, this is good — it saves the words for where they'll do the most good and enable actual roleplaying and suchlike.
HI

Good to hear from your Patrick

Let me make myself a bit clearer then…

I don't understand why game devs. think they need to improve the game's graphics nor do I understand why game devs. need to use every new
technology that is developed for games.

To me, it seems, like game devs. are anxious to make games just like (interactive) movies. This is, imo, a very big mistake. Games are, and should be, their own cultural as well as entertainment product. If there are no differences between seeing a movie and playing a game, why should you then play computer (role playing) games at all??

To me, at least, it seems like there is no reflection about the use of the latest and recent tech progress in games. (i hope there are at least some reflections on this??) If a technology is new, then it is also automatic good and has to be used in games. It seems to me that having new technology in games is becoming the goal, rather than a means to achieve a goal: telling a great story.

To clarify even more, I do understand your examples. However, in movies, you could have the actor say "how can you say that ? Never have been so angry" in very many different ways - at the same time as the audience will see that he or she is very angry. I also get that when you write a book, you can add 'he exclaimed angrily' or 'she said angrily in a soft voice' and such dialoque.

When I look at the the new trailer for Mass Effect (ME) where the captain gets angry with one of his teammates, I get that he is angry, and I also get that his teammate is a bit concerned: However, to me, at least, these examples represent very crude examples of what emotions like anger, rage, or furious is like. Or maybe it is just the technologi which isn't good enough yet - to portray all these things….??

To me, at least, these little things 'like never have been so angry' serves one
purpose; they give me details about how & why the characters behave the way they do, as well as serve as background immersion for when I play game(s).
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December 18th, 2006, 03:59
Originally Posted by aries100 View Post
I don't understand why game devs. think they need to improve the game's graphics nor do I understand why game devs. need to use every new
technology that is developed for games.
Easy. The unfortunate answer is that you and I and people like us are an incredibly tiny minority. I'd be happy writing 2-D games like Baldur's Gate, but the average gamer — even the average CRPG player — wants more.

Gamers like you and me are a niche audience. And a company that employs 300+ people can't afford to make niche games.

[quote]To me, it seems, like game devs. are anxious to make games just like (interactive) movies.[quote]

I can't really address this, since I don't agree with it. Aside from the fact that the narrator said that playing Mass Effect would give you a feeling like being in an epic action movie (or whatever he said — don't remember the exact words), I haven't heard anything from BioWare that says, "We're making interactive movies."

If your qualification for "just like movies" is "graphics are better, most dialogue is VO'd", then yeah, we're moving toward movies. But that goes with what I said above — most gamers want those features. The people who don't need them are a minority, and the people who don't even WANT them are a tiny minority of THAT minority.

I can understand that the demo film makes you think that BioWare is making a combat game with no RPG elements — the goal was to show off the combat, just as the goal in the first demo was to show off the new conversation system. We haven't shown off the RPG elements yet (item upgrades and modifications, talent system, and so forth) because those elements are almost always hammered out right until the game goes gold, and also because "You can use detritus to make a gun upgrade!" isn't exactly going to wow the larger gaming audience.
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December 18th, 2006, 04:52
It seems to have to do with movies being more mainstream and popular for so many years, since there arrival to the public, though games are over taking them.
It's very natural games are using the best of both to overtake movies, not to mention where most of the advancement in CGI used to (maybe still does) come from, it's a transition we all are just seeing.

So if a game Dev has 10 to 20 million for a title reaching more possible fans allows the Dev to make a second and third game.
They want some of those movie dollars and movie sales in theaters are constantly falling, certainly from home movie usage but games sales are skyrocketing into the billions and may turn out to the fastest growing industry ever recorded.

Now the key is if a Dev can hit that magic formula of a good story and a great looking game, then you are able to attract the fans with the newest effects they see in the movies but if they can get the story right, then you are there for days, weeks and in the case of an interesting MMO's months and years.

The sticking point in all this is going to be, how fast people will keep upgrading their hardware and why consoles are getting them first, imo.
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December 18th, 2006, 05:57
Originally Posted by Acleacius View Post
…Now the key is if a Dev can hit that magic formula of a good story and a great looking game, then you are able to attract the fans with the newest effects they see in the movies but if they can get the story right, then you are there for days, weeks and in the case of an interesting MMO's months and years.

The sticking point in all this is going to be, how fast people will keep upgrading their hardware and why consoles are getting them first, imo.
Replace 'MMO' with 'game with multiplayer' ; I will agree with the rest of your post. NWN is an example of a game which is not a MMO, has a bad OC, yet it did manage to attract the interest of players for years because of its multiplayer.

A bad single player RPG with a nice construction set can easily do the same. Who would honestly still play Oblivion if it were not for the mods? I know the only reason I haven't yet uninstalled is that although I could never bring myself to finish the game, I still like to experiment with the toolset - and I'm no artist.

An ideal game should do well in all respects, but the emphasis should be on GAMEPLAY, not on graphics or anything else.

As far as consoles go I consider the situation to be somewhat artificial - and as such with a limited life span. The point being that the devs do not choose to make console only games, they are forced to do so. Trully independent devs make PC only releases, or release simultaneously for all platforms.

It took BioWare quite a while to disengage from Atari + Wizards of the Coast, in the process Lucas Arts and Microsoft had to be used. I would be glad if Dragon Age will signify the birth of a new era for Bio in which games will be done for players, not publishers.

The company's past titles show enormous talent that has yet to reach its full potential; even when working under the umbrella of others, Bioware should become able to force its own terms.

[edit] After writing this post, I finally uninstalled Oblivion!
Last edited by Lethal Weapon; December 18th, 2006 at 06:10.
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December 18th, 2006, 08:54
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Your right of course credit where credit is due NWN and NWN 2 hold the crown of Online Coop play and your right about Oblivion too it's has been sitting on my hard drvie since it came out, mostly I might play it again and only for the Mods.

It took SO much work to get it where I want it but now it's so out of date and it hasn't been patched and I will have to update many mods as well not to mention between the game and files like Mods it must be taking up 10gig of space.

That't true, m$ is the one forcing all this console only/first bs to make people want to by console hardware even if it has done terrible damage to the PC industry.

When I think of gamplay it's usually something in first or thrid person like Dark Messiah with real time movment and timing of swings.
TB like NWN or KotOR is more about balance of powers, skills and spells then taking turns hoping you end up the last one standing and as a matter of fact most times in TB games animation actually sucks.

Yes Bioware has lots of promise to bad not enough power to make simultaneous releases on all platforms yet.
They also seem to help smaller start up RPG comapines which is always good and
one can only hope they get big enough to be independent and I guess their online service could help.
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December 18th, 2006, 09:15
I'd have to disagree completely with Acleacius. Games and movies are totally different media. I really don't see one of them replacing the other or people moving/transitioning from one to another.
People either like movies or games more. Or if they like both then they might make their choice of the medium depend on their mood (like when they're too lazy to play a game, then it's more likely they'll watch a movie). Or maybe they might even read a book instead if reading is one of their hobbies.
I don't believe that movie freaks (or book freaks… or anyone for that matter) can be converted into a gamer. No way. You either like gaming or you don't. It either is (or becomes) a hobby of yours or it isn't (doesn't).
A golf player doesn't suddenly become (or "transition" into being) a tennis player just because both sports include a ball and can be played on grass. You either like golf or tennis or both or none.

On a more general note, I'm not quite sure why this whole discussion has gotten so theoretical. It's extremely simple actually.
Games and movies are an audio/visual experience with games having just one more component which is user input.
I personally find it only natural that people try to innovate and improve the consumer experience in all of these areas.
This means that it's only logical and natural that graphics, screen sizes, resolutions, special effects etc etc are improving in the visual area as new technologies are invented.
Same goes for audio where new sound formats and technologies are being worked on all the time.
Finally -and this obviously only true for games- the interactive component gets improvements all of the time as well from keyboards to mice to wheels to flight controllers and joysticks and gamepads etc.
Why would you stop at color TV, stereo sound and the 'Pong' controller if there's so much more out there just waiting to be discovered?

Finally, I disagree with the suggestion that graphics get more attention than gameplay in modern games. That can not be true, simply for the fact that graphics/art people usually don't get to have a say in gameplay or design questions at all and vice versa.
The graphics and art guys are usually just creating what the designers and story team order them to make.
I don't think that a project lead has ever had to face the question whether to make a simple game with great graphics or a complex game with shitty graphics.
I'm very certain that the type or depth of a game (simple or complex) gets decided upon totally independent of the graphical quality.
We're talking two pairs of shoes here. Just because graphical improvements (which are only natural and logical as stated above) have gone hand in hand with the "dumbing down" of games, it doesn't mean that both "phenomenons" are interrelated in any way, shape or form.
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December 18th, 2006, 22:40
I was with you on the first half but not so much with the second. Graphics absolutely have a huge impact on gameplay design and I believe in many cases, it sets the direction from the outset. Did you see the Age of Decadence article recently where the game has text adventure panels? "You successfully climb up to the window and carefully bla bla…."?

You simply don't get climbing in any modern RPG I can think of (apologies for anything I've overlooked) because the first thing a develop is going to say is "well, we've got to animate all this extra stuff…". Achieving the (currently demanded) level of "AAA fidelity" means compromises in the number of art assets that can be developed and animated, and that means potential limits to the gameplay all over the place.

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December 18th, 2006, 23:31
OK, to clarify, I was thinking about games in general (not just RPGs) when I wrote that 2nd half . If we look at strategy games for example then there are a few good examples of games that are rather complex and have great graphics at the same time like the Total War games or Anno 1701 or Civ 4 or Paraworld.
As far as RPGs are concerned, well, I don't want to open up another can of worms and start another "definition war" but obviously if I were to follow your argument then my definition of more depth or more complexity would have to include the feature of climbing as you obviously consider climbing as something that adds more depth to a game.
I don't really share that view though since the mere existence of e.g. chess or complex 2D strategy games proves that you don't necessarily need a lot of animations or art or even a 3rd dimension to create depth or complexity.
That's why I still believe that the design decisions regarding a game's depth are made totally independent of the decisions about the graphical quality. At the very least, I don't believe in any causal relationship between the graphical quality and the "dumbing down" of games. Those are parallel developments IMHO that have neither a causal relationship nor any points of intersection.
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