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December 31st, 2011, 00:07
If you want to get the int shrine early then I think dropping the fire or acid shrine could be useful. Our low level toons are about to get to level 7 so they can cast resist energy 20 (same as from the shrine).

Our high level ones cast resist energy anyway to get 30. So I don't mind removing the acid shrine for an int shrine, but I think the other start shrines should remain.

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December 31st, 2011, 07:29
A vastly larger group of characters use the resistance shrines than any of the stat shrines save CON. For value to the guild as a whole, it would make more sense to ditch the STR, CHA, and WIS shrines for Cold, Electric, and Sonic resist 20 Shrines.

Not every character can cast Resist Energy, and using the rare level 11 wands take 40 UMD; a difficult benchmark for all but a few. Furthermore, not everyone plays at the same times. We cannot be assured of anyone being able to cover needed buffs. Even on those who can cast them, it represents saving spell points for other things. While you may cover an inability to manage your spell casting with store pots, I would prefer to learn to play a caster instead, and manage my spell pool.

The suggestion was made because the CHA shrine benefits far fewer characters than an INT shrine would. As the guild as a whole is more reliant on Wizard Crowd Control than any other casting class, and we have more INT-based casters across multiple players than any other stat, INT benefits the guild far more than CHA. And I'm one of the ones with a CHA-based caster, pretty much the only active one since Jm isn't playing her Bard much.

This means that of all the players in the guild, we have you and me as the primary ones requiring heavy CHA. We only have 8 particularly active members, so that means only 25% of the guild make use of the CHA shrine for more than just spell points. Being nice and including the inactive Bard of Jm, that's 3/8.

INT affects Corwind, Reywind, Jm, Dte, and myself. To top that off, INT affects the primary Rogue skills, disable device and search, affecting JM, CM, Dte, Corwin, Myself, and Reywind. 75% of the group, or 6/8. Twice as many that are reliant on CHA. Since you are reliant on successful disarming of traps and finding of trap boxes, as well as arcane crowd control, you're just as affected. Unless you want to start finding traps with your neck and caking your way through them.

The WIS Shrine affects JM, You, CM, and Dte. Half the group. 4/8. As this affects spell DCs, including Crowd Control, it also affects the rest of the guild directly.

The STR and CON shrines affect all of us, as all of us have a melee build of some form or another, and everyone needs CON. 8/8.

The rest of us except you have characters which cannot cast Resist Energy. So the Resist Energy shrines affect 7/8.

You are arguing that the CHA shrine is so important, because it affects you. The majority of the guild is not you, and the majority of the guild is better benefited by either additional resist shrines, or an INT shrine. Or for that matter, the WIS shrine. As you do not have any CHA-based casters, what benefits you doesn't even benefit the rest of the group, save the two other characters who are CHA-based casters.

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Last edited by azraelck; December 31st, 2011 at 07:40.
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December 31st, 2011, 09:22
I will be needing CHA in the future when my character gets high enough but it isn't crucial since my build is mainly melee. (Bard/Barbarian/Fighter) This is once I decide to come back and probably by the time I need it the higher level ship will be available.
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December 31st, 2011, 09:38
Really, you don't if you've gone the melee route; your Perform will be high enough, as it will have 23 ranks, + CHA mod (at least 3), + 15 item + 4 GH = 45. You add a 1d20 to that. A 45+ DC on Fascinate is pretty much unbeatable, since Arcanes seek a 43DC to be unbeatable for the higher Fortitude saves. 40 Enchantment is solid for most Epics. Where it isn't, you often have more troubles due to needing 45+ Spell Penetration. Which is damn-near unhittable on all but vastly over-geared multi-TRs.

I counted you as inactive, as you haven't been playing very much. We're at the lower levels now if you want to pop back in and play some.

The Shrines are most useful for those who use that stat as their primary stat. For Melee-build Bards like yours or mine, Favored Souls, Clerics, and yes even Paladins (remember, I had one, that survived where yours could not Peter. I didn't forget Dreaming Dark even if your selective memory "has"), CHA is not the primary stat. Only Sorcerers and Caster Bards require CHA as a primary stat. And I have both Sorcerers in the guild right now. Jm has the only casting-capable Bard.

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December 31st, 2011, 15:10
In Episode 8, "Crafting with … Courtney" presents the so-called "Elf Bites", which is in fact an real-world recipe for cookies !
http://my.ddo.com/turbinecommunity/2…appy-holidays/

Questions & Answers with the Festivult Jester : http://my.ddo.com/festivult_jester/2…-the-jester-2/

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December 31st, 2011, 19:19
Why not buy resist potions. They're not hard to get. You can get all the resist potions from the potions vendor in the marketplace. They have the strength you can use (10, 20 or 30). So there is really no big need to have resist shrines since they can be replaced by potions.

Stat boosts from shrines can't be bought. If you look at all the high level guilds they have all 6 stat shrines and maybe a few resist shrines. When people ask for a ship invite then it's to a ship with +2 stat shrines. Those are the really invaluable boosts you can have because they can't be substituted by spells, potions etc.

All the resist shrines can be substituted by potions from the potions vendor. Granted, you may get better resist bonuses than you can buy. In our case we only have resist 20 and you can get those potions at level 7. The greater resist shrines (30) you have to be level 11 to use. So if we had had the greater resist shrines then the story is different, but we only have the regular ones.

The majority of our low level toons are level 6 now (soon to become level 7). That means they can get potions with the same value as the resist shrines on the ship. So those resist shrines won't help us getting better values.

Even those who are lower than level 7 can get the resist 10 potions (only 10 difference).

So I don't think replacing a stat shrine for a resist shrine is a good idea at all. My suggestion is to replace the acid shrine with an int shrine. We won't lose much doing that. Everybody can buy resist potions from any potion vendor.

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December 31st, 2011, 19:36
I'm the one paying for ALL the shrines with real money, I. e. turbine points, instead of ingame platinum. So I think I should have a saying here. You get +2 stats because I buy them instead of +1 stats. If you really need the int shrine then I propose we swap the acid shrine. People can get acid potions with ingame pp's.

I have to spend 6400 turbine points per month to keep these shrines up. So it's not a minor contribution. I even bought the 200 astral diamonds for the next ship upgrade so we get room for more buffs. Those were even more expensive.

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December 31st, 2011, 21:36
In that case we should ditch ALL the stat shrines and swap them for plat-purchased Resist shrines.

You made the decision to spend money on the shrines, not us. If you don't like doing it, then feel free to stop. The rest of us did not build characters which are so reliant on ship buffs.

Remember that you could not buy any of those stat shrines if the rest of us had not worked to get the renown level up. The ship buffs should be chosen by the guild as a whole, and based on the best interest of the guild as a whole, not just you. That means you have equal say in the matter with the rest of us.

The suggestion of an INT benefits far more people in the guild than the CHA shrine. So does ditching it for additional resistance shrines, even if you feel we are all too worthless to have resistances.

Now if you feel that we are here solely to farm renown for your benefit, then I will withdraw my characters from the guild in DDO. That is not why I am here, and I am not your employee.

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Last edited by azraelck; December 31st, 2011 at 21:50.
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December 31st, 2011, 23:03
Settle down guys, this is not worth having a fight over!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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January 1st, 2012, 01:06
Why don't we get rid of the acid shrine and replace it with an int shrine. You can get the same benefit as the acid shrine by buying potions. What's the problem with that? Everybody can get the potions from the marketplace vendor.

I never said I only need you for renown. If that's the case they I could easily have joined a level 55+ guild with my toons and have all the buffs I need.

I find it strange you continue to discuss this subject when we all discussed it on skype yesterday and we decided to leave things as is.

I don't have problems using Turbine points to get stat shrines and I have never said so. I've done it for more than a whole year actually without saying anything. We've all agreed earlier which shrines we needed we decided upon WIS, CHA, STR and CON. Cha was actually one of the first ones we got (even before STR). So I really don't understand the reason to demand a change now.

It's ok to make a suggestion about what we could have, but you don't promote the need for int shrines by telling me that I don't need cha for my paladins, cleric and favored soul. I know my own builds and what I need to make things work.

When we get a new slot available we discuss what we need and add that. I never heard anything about the need for an int shrine when we got the level 50 ship. Instead we got the fire and acid shrines. We knew at that time we had several artificers and some wizards. So what has changed since then? It was only a month or two ago we got the level 50 ship.

Again I think the easiest solution is to swap the acid shrine for an int shrine. We're all soon level 7 and get the same effect from a resist acid potion or resist acid spell than from the shrine. So what do we miss by not having the acid shrine.

As a matter of fact I didn't hear many complaints before we got the level 50 ship and got the acid shrine for the first time. So if we could play a year without it and used pots instead then we can again until we get to level 55 and have 3 more slots to fill.

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January 1st, 2012, 15:06
A thought I had today was that of reducing the number of shrines and whatnot altogether.

Positive points would be (the negatives are clear, I suppose) :

- less money to spend (either Platinum or Points)
- adventures would become more of a challenge again
- thus, hoarded stuff would decrease because of the sheer necessity to use it

Just as a thought.

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January 1st, 2012, 18:44
I went thru and put time on all the ship buffs yesterday. I believe there was only 1 shrine that I was unable to fill up using plat.

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January 1st, 2012, 18:55
The problem is that the quests are balanced knowing that people have shipbuffs. We're doing all quests on elite with or TR's so we need all the buffs we can have to succeed.

What's the point in having a guildship if we can't use the buffs coming with it.

We don't have a problem spending plats on the buffs since our high level toons earn more per quest than you need for the buffs.

The issue is the number of slots available for each buff type. We have now only 6 small slots that we use for shrines. At level 55 we get 9 slots. Then the problem is solved

My suggestion is to have as many stat shrines as possible. We can actually have all 6 if we replace the resist shrines. The reason is that stat shrine boosts stack with everything while resist shrines don't. They only make life more convenient since we don't need potions or resist spells.

So a simple solution is to get the int shrine instead of acid and dex instead of fire if anyone need the dex buff.

So I don't think it's a solution to dump buffs and have an almost empty guild ship. Then we are all better off joining a big guild and benefit from the buffs there. We then get all buffs with no investment in PP's at all

But that goes against the pride we can feel to have our own guild knowing that we've earned every buff together with hard work. Soon we have all buffs we need. We just need 2.5 levels. Then our small guild can provide the same as the big guilds. That's not bad with a group of 7-8 active players.

I think we need to bring the discussion down to the core subject here

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January 1st, 2012, 19:12
The subject is that we now have more players than before who use int as an important stat so an int shrine would benefit many players. That is certainly a valid comment and we need to deal with that.

The question is HOW we deal with that.

1. Azraelck suggested we remove the cha shrine and I don't agree with that since all my toons depend upon cha. It's one of my most important stats.

2. I suggested we replace the acid shrine and add the int shrine instead. So far nobody has commented on that.

3. We leave things as is until we get guild level 55 (should be in about 2 months, 3 months at the most). Then we get 3 more slots and add int, electricity and either dex or cold.

4. We replace another shrine with the int shrine? E. g. the fire shrine.

So a much more productive discussion is to comment on our alternatives and then find out what we do.

My view is this:
All benefit from the con shrine so it should be the last to go.

A strength shrine gives +1 hit and +1 damage for all melee characters so it will also help us a lot.

A wis shrine helps e. g. clerics, paladins, monks and others. My paladins have wis as a dump start and without the shrine I can't cast spells. That's a disaster for their build. Now my level 7 paladin can cast cure light wounds to self heal a bit.

I also mean that a cha shrine is important for many classes and especially paladins. I get a boost to 3 different areas from cha. Smites inflict more damage, lay on hands become more powerful, all my saves are increased by 1 and so on. My cleric is built with a medium cha because wis is maxed out and con is very high. So with +2 cha from the shrine I get one extra turn undead (or radiant aura) and better turns. My build is dependent upon every boost to actually be effective in undead situations. We have a lot of quests ahead of us with undeads (Delara, Necro etc.) so he needs to function well against them. We will play on elite so the DC will be harder against turns. So for me the cha is the most critical stat of the all. Sorcerers, bards and favored souls also benefit from having a high charisma. Skills like intimidate, diplomacy, bluff, haggle, perform and use magic device also benefit from charisma. My low level paladin is based on intimidate to attract aggro to save the others in the group. So every point bonus will help with that.

An int shrine sounds like a good choice now since more classes can use it besides the wizard. Artificers and rogues (some skills) benefit from an int shrine as well. Disable device, repair and search will benefit from an int shrine. Wizards and artificers get a better DC from int (similar to wis for divine casters). They also get more spell points from more int.

A dex shrine also sounds like a good shrine to get eventually. Rogues have skills that depend upon the dex skill. Balance and open locks will be higher from dex. Same with ranged attacks and AC. Reflex saves also benefit from higher dex. A +1 reflex save from a +2 dex shrine will benefit all of us when we're hit by a fireball or a trap, not only dex based toons. Actually those with a low dex will probably need the boost more than those with the high dex. The wis shrine will give +1 to all will based saves and that's particularly important to fighters who have a low will save normally. So even classes without an obvious need for a stat can benefit from the shrine. Therefore I think we should try to get all 6 stat shrines asap.

Acid and fire shrines. I think we can live without these because potions or resist spells can do the same. Since we only have the 20 fire and acid shrines it means we have equal potions at level 7. We will all be level 7 or higher in a week at the most. Then we can easily get the resist potions we need from the marketplace potions vendor prior to our quests. We drink the ones we need in each quest and should be fine.

So my suggestion is to keep the 4 existing stat shrines and replace the fire and acid shrines with int and dex once we all have become level 7.

We don't have the electricity, cold and sonic resist shrines and depend on potions or spells for them anyway. So why not do the same with acid and fire.

I think having stat boosts is more important than a convenience of not having to remember to buy resist potions. We have to buy potions for restoration, remove curse, remove blindness, remove disease (or rely upon the cleric to cast them). So I don't think we add more trips to the potions vendor because of that change.

Bottom line is that I don't think it's good to remove stat shrines we already have because we have built our characters based upon them being there. I don't mind changes, but as I've said too many times already I think we all benefit from replacing a convenient choice (resist shrine) with stat boosts. This is what you see in the bigger guilds. They all have all 6 stat boosting shrines.

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January 1st, 2012, 19:18
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
I went thru and put time on all the ship buffs yesterday. I believe there was only 1 shrine that I was unable to fill up using plat.
You need turbine points for the +2 stat boosts. You get only +1 with platinum. Starting from guild level 57 we can get +2 stat boosts without getting the gold seal version. So at guild level 62 or so we can have all stats boosts with only platinum.
We can even get the greater resist shrines with platinum from about level 57 as well.

All gold seal improvements you need to buy with turbine points and regular improvements you buy with plats. Usually the gold seal improvement appears 10-15 levels before the regular improvement.

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January 1st, 2012, 19:43
At low level I've noticed that most monsters cast electricity against us and rarely acid. We still need to use potions for the electricity buff and I managed to get through all kobold shamans etc. on elite without being killed by electricity spells. Potions did the job even though a +20 shrine would have helped more than a +10 potion. Now I have +20 electrity potions.

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January 1st, 2012, 23:16
I just did The Butcher's Path on Elite with a level 6 cleric - I managed to get through it all, using what I found, and one Festivult Jester's present: A cake that does the same as a "fire shield".

I had the feeling as if they were casting more electricity than acid in easier levels, if I remember correctly. Plus, the Kobold shamans casted blinding (or whatever this is; the effect is like making one blind anyway) since level 5 or 6, but never beneath that.

What worries me most, personally, but that is not fixable with the use of sgrines, are those BEEEP Oozes. I really, really hate them. And because of that, I'm really, really grateful and thankful for the person who has put an "Everbright" weapon into the guild chest, from where I had taken it.


Besides, I found an odd scroll today called "Ooze Puppet" or so. I put it into the chest, like I always put magic stuff into the chest which has too high UMD for me.
Like 2 sceptres or what this was.


By the way, what about a kind of time limit with the chest ? My thought was … okay, let's say 4 weeks, if the item wasn't used, it can be sold by the one who placed it into the chest - if it was an minor item … Like Scrolls, for example …

With such a time limit at least for minor scrolls the chest would be "cleaned" after an interval.

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January 3rd, 2012, 13:30
FYI : Meanwile my second "run" through "Tangleroot Gorge" my character/toon/hero/whatever reached level 8.

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January 3rd, 2012, 17:03
Personally I am tired of the bickering and harsh words every week. This is a game, we are suppose to have fun. I don't give a damn how fast I level. I just enjoyed the company and the general game play.

As for the shrines, I know I won't remember to buff with potions every 3 min or however long they last. I have bought or found buff items to wear for stats I need. When we get a new ship we can add more. And I feel the ship should help the majority.

Maybe it is time to find a new game or just take a break.

Bart and Corwin should just admit that when it gets down to it, I will have the final say.
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January 4th, 2012, 16:42
Shall I load the grease spell, cm? They don't really have a "spray with the garden hose" spell.

What's this week's plan? I assume we'll run Big Top first to finish the Carnival pack. Personally, I'd like to see us do stuff for K favor (which, at our level, probably means the rather boring tavern quests rather than an adventure pack) so I can expand my toon bank. I've developed a tiny bit of sympathy for Corwin's everpresent inventory problems. Between scrolls and inscription kits and ingredients, arcanes have to hold on to (between the toon inventory and toon bank) a lot of junk.

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