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-   -   Shroud of the Avatar & Richard Garriott (https://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27995)

Stingray March 12th, 2015 01:45

Shroud of the Avatar & Richard Garriott
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantasm (Post 1061310480)
I also wish that Richard Garriot would stop polluting other Kickstarters.

Had the exact same thought. When I saw tie-ins to Shroud of the Avatar in the pledge levels, it probably made me pledge less to this game than I otherwise would have. In my mind, Shroud of the Avatar is the biggest bust/scam of any (big-name) RPG Kickstarter up to this point, so any connection to it is a massive red flag. Now, having pledged to SDS, it feels like I'm even a bigger part of the never-ending Shroud of the Avatar Pledge Drive, whereas I'd prefer to just forget about it entirely.

(FYI for those confused by this thread: this was originally a chain of posts in the Seven Dragon Saga Kickstarter news thread. It got moved here into a standalone thread, starting with my post, for being off-topic.)

rune_74 March 12th, 2015 02:00

Man, I wish you guys would get some facts before posting about shroud…since it seems you don't know much about it other then what you think.

Moriendor March 12th, 2015 02:22

Agree. I'm not a huge Garriott fan or a fan of the crazy prices they are asking for real estate in SotA, but I have backed the game, and I've had a rather basic but totally playable version installed for over a year now. So how exactly is that a "bust/scam"? From the 2012/2013 Kickstarter spree era, SotA was just about the first game to deliver a playable version. At first with their own installer and then backers were able to port it to Steam for easier updating.
Speaking of which, it is probably the most frequently updated game in my Steam library and they are sending out weekly (give or take) development updates per mail. And substantial ones at that. I'm usually too lazy to read it all but they are making a lot of progress and seem to be going full steam ahead.
I'm honestly puzzled how anyone would get the idea that this is a "bust/scam". Must be a severe lack of information and just going by vague assumptions… or a personal Garriott vendetta (because of Garriott's inarguably inflated ego which I'm not too fond of either).

Stingray March 12th, 2015 02:29

They misrepresented the type of game it would be, and its focus, during the Kickstarter. Go ahead and think I don't have the facts if you want, doesn't matter to me. But I have followed its development. I'll leave an example of what I'm talking about for you, from the devs' own mouths:

Quote directly from SotA's Kickstarter FAQ:
Q: "Will this be a MMO? Can I play with my friends?"
A: … "Though Shroud of the Avatar won’t be a massively multiplayer online role playing game, it will be a multiplayer game. "

From the current SotA website, at the very top:
"Shroud of the Avatar: Forsaken Virtues is a fantasy RPG that combines a single player narrative with a sandbox MMO"

During the KS, they were crystal clear that it shouldn't be called an MMO, now they are actually calling it an MMO. Granted, this doesn't prove intentional misrepresentation, it could simply be a shift in focus/philosophy during development. But either way, same result. That's why I said "bust/scam". I feel it's either one or the other. Not both.

rune_74 March 12th, 2015 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stingray (Post 1061310496)
They misrepresented the type of game it would be, and its focus, during the Kickstarter. Go ahead and think I don't have the facts if you want, doesn't matter to me. But I have followed its development. I'll leave an example of what I'm talking about for you, from the devs' own mouths:

Quote directly from SotA's Kickstarter FAQ:
Q: "Will this be a MMO? Can I play with my friends?"
A: … "Though Shroud of the Avatar won’t be a massively multiplayer online role playing game, it will be a multiplayer game. "

From the current SotA website, at the very top:
"Shroud of the Avatar: Forsaken Virtues is a fantasy RPG that combines a single player narrative with a sandbox MMO"

So? Really both things say the same thing, the latter using a familiar example in order to get rid of confusion, if you followed from the start, like I have, then you will know the first part really caused more confusion then good.

Will there still be a single player offline version of the game? Yes, and there was a recent news post on here about it.

Noted, you don't care to discuss anything so I don't care to take the time to argue with you.

Stingray March 12th, 2015 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by rune_74 (Post 1061310497)
Noted, you don't care to discuss anything so I don't care to take the time to argue with you.

Yeah, I really don't care to discuss anything related to Shroud of the Avatar. But I will throw out my opinions here and there anyway, just like you are doing. See ya.

rune_74 March 12th, 2015 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stingray (Post 1061310499)
Yeah, I really don't care to discuss anything related to Shroud of the Avatar. But I will throw out my opinions here and there anyway, just like you are doing. See ya.

You didn't give any info at all, you didn't come out as informed either, sorry.

Stingray March 12th, 2015 02:43

Yep, no prob. Likewise to you.

SpoonFULL March 12th, 2015 02:59

Just few points of view from what I have seen so far:

- Almost (and probably) ALL updates, and there are many of them indeed, are related to player housing, advertising new trinkets to buy, and on online features.

- The only update on single player offline came after community pressure, it was boarder line rude, and it felt that this is just a tacked on committment and not carefully considered as implied by Starr Long's replies on their forum regarding the single player offline rpg features.

- In the latest gaming Nexus interview, lord Bull****, explicitly called it an online fantasy rpg: http://www.rpgwatch.com/#31008

Due to the fact that the single play offline mode features as second highlight on the game Steam page and on Kickstarter (after the episodic content), and the fact that ALL their updates are on the online features and they keep referring to the game as an online rpg - their intentions are at least suspicious.

I too don't like the association of other kickstarters with SoTA and lord BS - their business model and intentions are suspicious and misleading.

I wholeheartedly feel cheated for backing this project, and I have not seen enough to change that yet.

rune_74 March 12th, 2015 03:25

Well, I can say I have played the recent releases and older ones…it is coming along quite nicely. I'm hoping that they do keep their promises on the offline parts.

I'm not sure the logic behind hating on lord british, who is a huge influence on modern games, but that is your prerogative. As a small company they have to keep raising money, or they simply won't be. They aren't making this game in a basement in a country where it is really cheap to develop.

Oh well, you can't change the minds of those who have decided to make up their minds no matter what. On that end, I'm skeptical on some things in the game, but there is a game there, it's not like they have nothing to show. Spoonfull, since you backed this then you must have tried it? It's still way early in it's development, I think it still has at least another year.

Anyways, it has nothing to do with this game, which I like as well. I think it will be hard pressed to make 450k. I hope it does though.

the_dagon March 12th, 2015 09:40

Can't understand also the hating against Richard Garriott as he paved the way for many RPGs.

On Shroud of the Avatar, he simply followed the trend on SOTA boards : people were more talking about Ultima Online 2, asked for it, so he slowly moved to the online direction, …without completely trashing the offline solo.
As he said, it's easier to move from an online game to add a single player narrative experience on top of it. Developping two games : a MMO + single player game completely different is a nonsense.

…and about housing, that's the way he's making money and funding the game. In Star Citizen's way. And it succeeds : 2 M$ kickstarter went to 6 M$ now.

The game is also making nice progresses. Let's wait for the final release, and judge it at this point.

Sorry for my english, not my native language.

GothicGothicness March 12th, 2015 10:24

Garriot lost a lot of credibility in Shroud of the Avatar I used to be a big fan of him. But it is simply not fair to try to get money both from your MMO RPG fans by being very vague about what he is going to build in terms of multiplayer, and make it first sound like it might be like the old single player Ultimas and after that turn it into an MMO and laugh in the face of those who pledged because they wanted an old style Ultima!

DArtagnan March 12th, 2015 10:27

I bought the Early Access of this, because I love the idea of a more cared-for lore, rich world, and more simulation aspects, ala Ultima Online.

That said, I'm not impressed with what I've seen.

In fact, I have a bad feeling about this one.

Stingray March 12th, 2015 10:56

Original discussion was actually not about SotA, but about how Richard Garriott has managed to inject himself into yet another Kickstarter (see the pledge rewards for Seven Dragon Saga). When rune_74 showed up to do his usual SotA Defense Duty, it got off-topic and someone split it into its own post here :)

rune_74 March 12th, 2015 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stingray (Post 1061310489)
Had the exact same thought. When I saw tie-ins to Shroud of the Avatar in the pledge levels, it probably made me pledge less to this game than I otherwise would have. In my mind, Shroud of the Avatar is the biggest bust/scam of any (big-name) RPG Kickstarter up to this point, so any connection to it is a massive red flag. Now, having pledged to SDS, it feels like I'm even a bigger part of the never-ending Shroud of the Avatar Pledge Drive, whereas I'd prefer to just forget about it entirely.

yes, this post had nothing to do with it.

Pessimeister March 12th, 2015 15:36

I think the original post is slightly irrational and askew in its depiction of Richard Garriott and doesn't show the slightest bit of respect for what the man has done for role-playing games. If you don't like his project or business models? That's fine, don't support it. But don't expect that view to somehow negate the man's influence in supporting other games.

It is inevitable that he'll continue have an influence in games; particularly those that are rooted in the traditional old-school role-playing style. Whingeing about it isn't going to change that fact. :)

SpoonFULL March 12th, 2015 16:19

His historical contribution is not relevant to my complaint. He used the single player hook (along with the online functionality) in the kickstarter and on Steam, and yet all the updates and interviews are focused on multiplayer only.

I have no objection at all to making an online game, but it is dishonest and disrespectful to mislead people to give out money on the promise of a full fledged single player rpg and then, on every update and interview, blatantly call the game an 'online fantasy rpg'.

Maybe one day we will get an interview where they will talk about the 'promised' offline single player (I certainly forgot about it)!

DArtagnan March 12th, 2015 16:22

But do we actually know that it's not going to be a fine singleplayer game?

SpoonFULL March 12th, 2015 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by DArtagnan (Post 1061310661)
But do we actually know that it's not going to be a fine singleplayer game?

No one knows since all updates are on the multiplayer and how fine it is!

Morrandir March 12th, 2015 23:53

Well, if they collected $2M by their singleplayer advertising Kickstarter campaign and additional $4M by selling houses and trinkets for the multiplayer mode, I don't have a problem with them spending 2/3 of their energy on multiplayer aspects of the game, especially when the singleplayer experience might profit.

I'm very sceptical about this game as well due to their one-sides updates, but before saying that I feel betrayed and marking the campaign as scam, I'll wait for the final singleplayer product and judge them then.


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