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-   -   Nextgen CPUs (https://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34988)

joxer November 30th, 2016 14:06

Nextgen CPUs
 
I bet this topic won't be nearly as popular as nextgen GPUs as currently any i5 can run anything and provide better visuals with integrated GPU than playstatixboxes… But it's always good to know what's going on at the market.

CPUs for a long time seem to stagnate, every new one is just a bit better than previous which is okay for phones where SoCs are "who cares which one is inside gimme bigger SD card". That slow progression doesn't quite work with PC where the idea is to upgrade a part every now and then.
And who upgrades stuff the most? Who puts the maximum pressure on hardware? Gamers. Actual gamers, not candy crush saga addicted housewives.

Currently Intel provides what gamers need. Not many cores in CPUs, but each is a strong one. On the other side is AMD who tried for ages with different approach, many cores, but weak ones - sadly for them software didn't move into that direction, most of existing code is not made to take advantage of cores number but on a single core power.

Most probably everyone heard about AMD's plans on upcoming Zen CPUs. The aim was to get 40% instructions per clock increase over previous processors generation. Can they do it? We'll maybe find out initially in two weeks, AMD will livestream New Horizon event on December 13 where hopefully some CPU demanding software (read: unoptimized rubbish like AC4) will be shown as an example of no stutter (anymore).

Intel is not just sitting back and watching, they're working on Kaby Lake CPUs with first ever unlocked i3, categorized as overclockable K version.
I won't be linking, use google unless you've already seen numerous articles how i3 7350K performs just as good as current nonK (means not overclocked) i5.

If i3 is as good as i5, who wouldn't pay less then before?
There is a catch. Sure, most of software doesn't need many cores. i3 has just two cores and new i3 will have it's audience for sure. But Intel and article writers (maybe deliberately, maybe out of ignorance and maybe paid to) forget that some games refuse to work on just duocore CPUs, unless modded/hacked and even then some still won't budge. An example is Dragon Age Inquisition.

Just as with AMD's Zen CPUs, we won't see Kaby Lake CPUs before the official launch in January, so until then all we can do is read detail lacking articles and wait for some proper video that won't test performance with Solitaire but a modern videogame.

Me? I don't plan to upgrade my CPU as it currently runs anything, but if the difference is drastic, hell, why not. Maybe stuff like Batman AK that expects technology from next century won't be slow as dirt on it.

you November 30th, 2016 16:20

An i3K is nothing special. Folks have been overclocking pentinum (one step down from i3) for a long time. The only thing interesting in Kaby Lake are for folks with tavel computers (laptops, high-end tablets) and 4K screens. I.e, kaby lake has hardware support for hvec/h265. That was one of the primary reason for the early release of kaby lake mobile processor. Otherwise kaby lake is as interesting an upgrade to skylake as haswell was an upgrade to ivy. Been there done that nothing much to see.
-
Not enough it known about AMD zen to comment; one of the problems AMD has is that even if they can design a decent processor; their fab technique has fallen way behind. They can out-source fabrication but $$$ is a real issue with AMD these days. Worse the honey moon with their GPU is nearly over (bit coins of all things saved their butt). Not sure if there will be an AMD by 2025. GPU might survive if they spin it off but it needs to stop playing catch up.

you November 30th, 2016 16:54

Oh; should have mentioned; window 7 driver for kaby lake will not be provided. Skylake is where window 7 ends.

zakhal November 30th, 2016 22:57

My core i7 is from 2008 and it still runs newest games with almost max settings as long as its paired with decent gpu (gtx1070). Next year it will become nine years old. This is the first cpu I have had to last this long and Ive had few starting from i486DX33.

Caddy November 30th, 2016 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by zakhal (Post 1061424674)
My core i7 is from 2008 and it still runs newest games with almost max settings as long as its paired with decent gpu (gtx1070). Next year it will become nine years old. This is the first cpu I have had to last this long and Ive had few starting from i486DX33.

I remember my first actual computer motherboard/cpu upgrade (from a 386dx/33) was a 486dx/33 and the best deal I could find was $475 at the time. Wing Commander and Ultima 7 ran SO much better! (which now I can play with software emulation on my tablet…)

Now I have 8 core AMD FX (which is even slower than the i7 with per core performance) and an RX 470, and even that slower combo will run anything at the moment at max settings. We're so spoiled with technology these days.

zakhal December 1st, 2016 15:36

My first computer was C64 tape. I was dying with that when I read about rpgs for PC and Amiga. By some chance I managed to get some money (From where?) to buy Amiga and after 6 months by even bigger chance I got lots of money so I could upgrade to 486. Amiga simply didnt have good enough cpu to run some games. In example UMS2 it could take 20min for it to process single turn. Ridiculous.

Prices between the 4 years I upraded from C64 to PC were:

C64 tape ~ 70e
Amiga ~ 250e
PC 486 ~ 2000e

joxer December 1st, 2016 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by zakhal (Post 1061424755)
My first computer was C64 tape.

Mine too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zakhal (Post 1061424755)
Amiga simply didnt have good enough cpu to run some games. In example UMS2 it could take 20min for it to process single turn. Ridiculous.

No. CPU was awsome and it's such a shame that architecture died in the long run.

Your experience was an example of zero code optimization. Otherwise I would have never see not enjoy Settlers 2 on Amiga.
But because most developers didn't care about enduser's time, an essential book was made, sadly, those who should have read it never bothered. I've mentioned it quite a few times, it's called "Zen of Code Optimization" and while it's outdated it still contains methods applicable to modern systems.
In a perfect world Steam should decide what game to add based on info if any employee on developer side have read it! Or anything similar.

Caddy December 1st, 2016 17:15

Here was my first (Ti99/4a):

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/55/169…ad027265_z.jpg

Cartridge and Cassette loaded with the optional voice synthesizer. REVOLUTIONARY! The OS was BASIC. The game Parsec was epic. Also, here's a promotional picture that didn't really stand the test of time…….

https://www.sydcon.com/blog/wp-conte…r-salesman.jpg

zakhal December 1st, 2016 17:18

When I got Amiga it was early 90s I think and the golden era of PC gaming was just starting with games like Betrayal at Krondor, Ultima Underworld and Ultima 7. I was stuck playing fugly UMS2 with 20min turns on Amiga. It did get some decent ports like Wing Commander and Civ was ok (put lots of hours into that) but the rest like Underworld never. No optimization would help in that.

Amiga was nice for 6 months but I didnt think a second when I had the chance to trade it for 486DX33Mhz with 4mb memory, 170mb hard drive and tseng labs or diamond something gpu.

My current pc is a collection of salvaged hardware. Some parts are over decade old but they work. Never had broken hd even. I think its the good ventilation of the case. When I upgrade mobo and cpu it must be like the second coming of i7. By then we might have integrated cpus only but it doesnt matter.

Currently Im more interested of mobile hardware. Cant wait to see the custom Tegra in Nintendo Switch. Im allready playing pc games with the old Tegra in Nvidia Shield so theres lots of potential for ports for the new one.

Ripper December 1st, 2016 17:37

"Just a few more minutes, and it'll enter sleep mode…"

https://www.sydcon.com/blog/wp-conte…r-salesman.jpg


Apologies in advance.

joxer December 1st, 2016 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by zakhal (Post 1061424767)
Amiga was nice for 6 months but I didnt think a second when I had the chance to trade it for 486DX33Mhz

O_O

That was some late Amiga purchase. IIRC most of PCs were on pispoor 286.

Zloth December 3rd, 2016 02:33

6502 Rules 4 Ever!

Apple ][+ was my first. PR#6 to reboot! Applesoft (not just the cheapy "Integer Basic" like in the old Apple ][) built right in! Using a hex editor on floppy disks to change what commands do what when you boot from them! Ah, thems was the days…

Quote:

Originally Posted by you (Post 1061424637)
Oh; should have mentioned; window 7 driver for kaby lake will not be provided. Skylake is where window 7 ends.

Now if only they would stop making 32-bit versions of Windows… I know it's hard but it's time to get on with it, people!

you December 3rd, 2016 15:10

Arg; 6502 was so slow; 8008 was much faster (or at least easier to program :) )

Zloth December 4th, 2016 23:47

Where's the DOWN THUMB option!? `Tis a heretic in our midst! ;)

joxer December 10th, 2016 00:48

An interesting team up:
http://www.pcgamer.com/amd-and-intel…-games-bundle/

The reason for AMD/Intel brief "marriage"? Holidays apparently.
Usually I'd pick milking $ as a reason but the offer is pretty juicy so doesn't look that.

azarhal December 14th, 2016 20:12

My december 7th post is in the wrong thread. :/

Anyway, AMD revealed Zen CPU (recorded livestream, recap of stream). Actually called Ryzen now. At stock clock (3.4Ghz, no boost yet and not optimized), it's on par with i7 6900k (3.2Ghz but it can boost, all core boost is supposedly 3.5Ghz from what I read, single core is 3.7Ghz) in Blender, and slightly faster in Handbrake. It also consume less Watts than the i7.

Their game test was GPU bottlenecked because they put Vega video card in it and it use Fiji's drivers. The test was SW Battlefield on Ultra in 4k at 60FPS (from attendee, never dipped below 57 and could go in the 70s). People attending could actually play on the machines. They also had Intel machines to compare it too.

Anandtech coverage.

No price tag were revealed, some were leaked though (the Ryzen demoed would be at $350). There will will be 4, 6 and 8 cores variants. Oh and AM3 coolers won't work on AM4 *cries*.

Opinion: Everyone was expecting Zen to be below Haswell in performance. It's 10% faster than Broadwell-E in Handbrake… Skylake is apparently only 3% faster than Broadwell-E. Outch!

you December 15th, 2016 14:25

Anything on power/heat consumption ?

azarhal December 15th, 2016 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by you (Post 1061426967)
Anything on power/heat consumption ?

The TDP is announced at 95W. Only useful to compare to other AMD CPU, they don't use the same "definition" as Intel for it.

During the live presentation this is the consumption they got (full system values, not just the CPU, the Ryzen is still being tuned too):

Zen platform idle: 93W
Intel platform idle: 106W
Zen platform load: 187W
Intel platform load: 191W
Zen delta: 94W (RyZen)
Intel delta: 85W (Broaderwell-E)

AM4 motherboard bridges also go a reduction in power consumption.

Myrthos December 18th, 2016 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by azarhal (Post 1061426800)
My december 7th post is in the wrong thread. :/

Moved.

you December 19th, 2016 03:22

Thanks. I also read the anandtech article. It sounds promising; and traditionally the amd's gpu in the cpu has been >> intel though intel is suppose to make significant improvements in kaby. The other area that intel has been beating amd has been the chipset but here also amd seems to have made some improvement; so maybe they will actually become competitive again (though the desktop pc is a small market these days). Hum. Might also help their gaming chipsets (er for consoles).

Quote:

Originally Posted by azarhal (Post 1061426970)
The TDP is announced at 95W. Only useful to compare to other AMD CPU, they don't use the same "definition" as Intel for it.

During the live presentation this is the consumption they got (full system values, not just the CPU, the Ryzen is still being tuned too):

Zen platform idle: 93W
Intel platform idle: 106W
Zen platform load: 187W
Intel platform load: 191W
Zen delta: 94W (RyZen)
Intel delta: 85W (Broaderwell-E)

AM4 motherboard bridges also go a reduction in power consumption.



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