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-   -   Favourite shooter/RPG? (https://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10378)

Dhruin April 19th, 2010 12:37

I disagree about DX - for me, it was a fantastic game and I can't see any relationship between it and the decline of the genre. It was a continuation of the work and concepts developed by Looking Glass, which started a long time before. And, as I ask in the newsbit: where are all the copy-cats? If DX started the decline of the genre, why are shooter/RPGs relatively rare?

As for separating and comparing specific elements (not the best shooter, not the best RPG) ignores the possibility the combination brings something unique. A good shooter/RPG takes the excitement of a shooter and adds welcome depth.

Finally, I knew the inclusion of some games (Vampire: Bloodlines) would be controversial but - trust me - if I'd left it out, someone would complain. And someone out there thinks Bloodlines isn't a genuine RPG and wastes the PnP ruleset potential with shooter mechanics.

DArtagnan April 19th, 2010 13:16

DX was more a sidestep than an evolution from the Shock games.

Personally, I prefer the Shocks - but that's just that = personal preference.

DX was (and is) an utterly fantastic Stealth/Shooter/RPG and it has nothing to do with any kind of decline, from where I'm sitting.

Shock was more about immersion and tension - a variation of the Survival Horror genre, where DX was a sprawling stealth-based action game - with relatively strong adventure elements, though you could definitely shoot your way through. One key difference is the NPC interaction, of which there is none in the Shocks.

DX is more RPG to me than Shock, but it doesn't really matter.

Both are great.

As for most succesful hybrid? To me, that would be System Shock - but I consider the RPG elements to be EXTREMELY light. In that way, Shock 2 might be a more appropriate choice, and though it's not as good as the prequel, it's a fantastic game in its own right.

JemyM April 19th, 2010 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by purpleblob (Post 1061007977)
Oh, I see. I haven't played NOLF2 and played NOLF1 a LOOOONG time ago. I honestly can't remember rpg element in 1st game tho. It was more spy/shooter game from my memory.

NOLF is a series which I along with STALKER , sims and UFO like to use to smash presumptions about what an RPG is to pieces. I wouldn't put NOLF2 in the RPG category either even if NOLF actually had dialogue choices too. Skilltrees, experiencepoints, dialogue choices… Still, it's not as free as I need a rpg to be. You still run a pretty much predetermined path like any fps. Still a fun game though, easilly as good as if not better than NOLF1.

DArtagnan April 19th, 2010 14:12

Where's System Shock?

= Big mistake :)

(Though RPG elements are minor)

Maylander April 19th, 2010 14:57

Voted ME1/2, mainly because of the setting and the interesting use of powers (very Jedi-like).

Also, I generally prefer 3rd over 1st person view, which gives ME1/2 a small edge over certain games.

CraigCWB April 19th, 2010 15:47

Druin,

I disagree about DX - for me, it was a fantastic game

That's fine. I'm not a fan of FPS games. I burned out on them with Unreal. Too shallow for me. They had some appeal for me back in the days when RPGs and Wargames were using mostly static graphics or at best crudely animated sprites, but there's nothing a shooter can do that I can't have in a better game genre. My opinion, of course :)

… and I can't see any relationship between it and the decline of the genre.

Maybe you weren't around the industry back then? Warren Spector was the second coming of Christ for a while there. And it was while a lot of the big PC game makers were getting bought out or failing, or both. The old ways of making RPGs got abandoned, and Deus Ex was hyped as at least one of the new ways. It had an impact.

By the way, the one game company that didn't abandon its recipe is Bethesda. I'm not a Bethesda fan and never have been, but recent RPGs have been so bad that Oblivion and Fallout 3 are actually amongst my favorite games in recent years. Which is pretty sad, since I was huge critic of every game Bethesda made from Arena to Morrowind.

It was a continuation of the work and concepts developed by Looking Glass, which started a long time before.


No, I don't think it was. I loved Ultima Underworld. I loved System Shock. I did not love Deus Ex. In fact, I couldn't even force myself to finish Deus Ex.

And, as I ask in the newsbit: where are all the copy-cats? If DX started the decline of the genre, why are shooter/RPGs relatively rare?


Because Deus Ex failed. It was over-hyped, and didn't meet expectations and surplus copies of the game were in the bargain bins in a matter of weeks. And that happened even though virtually every reviewer gave it a spectacular review… teh whole Second Coming and all that, don't you know :)

I think Warren Spector was the last of the industry's "Golden Boys" too! A lot of em crashed and burned in quick succession, for a while there. I can't really explain why so many bad games get good reviews, these days. Could be it's just a money thing, eh? But at least once in a while they give a score less than 90 for a major release.

As for separating and comparing specific elements (not the best shooter, not the best RPG) ignores the possibility the combination brings something unique. A good shooter/RPG takes the excitement of a shooter and adds welcome depth.


I agree. That has some appeal, for fans of shooters. It doesn't have much appeal for fans of RPGs, though :)

And I would still argue that it better be a good shooter at its core, and not a mediocre shooter with stats and dialog.

Finally, I knew the inclusion of some games (Vampire: Bloodlines) would be controversial but - trust me - if I'd left it out, someone would complain. And someone out there thinks Bloodlines isn't a genuine RPG and wastes the PnP ruleset potential with shooter mechanics.

Well, everyone has their own definition of "genuine RPG". What I object to is games that don't even make more than a token effort to include RPG elements being called RPGs.

By the way, I saw on Warren Spector's wiki that he was playing Ogre and GEV back in the late 1970s. I'm younger than him, but I was too! You know what those games were? A little fold out paper hex map with cardboard counters and about a 10 page mimeographed manual. You think that was the kind of game that the typical teenager or young adult was playing, back then? How did Warren Spector go from making games that interested him and that he would want to play, to making games that he thought he could sell a lot of copies of? Every game developer seems to make that mistake, and they never learn from it. It seems bizarre to me that people would try to use their creative talents in the pursuit of something that didn't even hold any interest for them, and think they'd come up with anything good that way.

Dhruin April 19th, 2010 16:02

I've been around for a while, so no, that has nothing to do with it. We have a very different perspective, such as the idea that DX might have been a failure. I recall DX being a critical success and, according to Wikipedia, it sold 1M copies - not too shabby at the time, primarily on one platform. I recall Spector becoming a celebrity because of the success of DX, not so much before.

Do you see the people lining up to agree with you? No? That doesn't make you wrong but perhaps it indicates that DX wasn't a bad game, but just didn't connect with you for some reason. As you point out, you already burned out on Unreal.

JDR13 April 19th, 2010 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by CraigCWB (Post 1061008002)
Because Deus Ex failed. It was over-hyped, and didn't meet expectations and surplus copies of the game were in the bargain bins in a matter of weeks. And that happened even though virtually every reviewer gave it a spectacular review… teh whole Second Coming and all that, don't you know .


No, Deus Ex failed to *you*, and you seem to be the minority here. You also seem to have convinced yourself that what you're saying is actually true.

wolfing April 19th, 2010 16:24

I played Deus Ex a very long time ago so my memory may be failing me, but I sort of remember playing it as a shooter, much more similar to the way I play Mass Effect or even Bioshock, than the way I played Bloodlines which was much more an RPG to me.

Cassius April 19th, 2010 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by CraigCWB (Post 1061007972)
Are you guys happy with the current state of affairs in the RPG genre?

That's a "yes" or "no" that I'm looking for. If you answered no, then Warren Spector and Deus Ex are (part) of what you should have a grievance about.

My answer is "no", but I'm mystified as to why you're pinning blame on Deus Ex after a decade of Diablo clones and MMORPGs. I wish Deus Ex had more - or even any - influence on RPG development. Sadly Deus Ex's gameplay didn't even influence its own sequel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CraigCWB (Post 1061007972)
… recent RPGs have been so bad that Oblivion [is] amongst my favorite games in recent years. Which is pretty sad …

Indeed. Sobering. Chilling actually.

irtehyar April 19th, 2010 19:30

You know, if Fallout 3 made the list, Oblivion should. Same gameplay, but heck - you can even pause gameplay in F3 to use VATS constantly like I did. Oblivion was more fps to me than F3. ;-)

Not that I would've voted for Oblivion, for the level scaling alone.

Naked Ninja April 19th, 2010 20:03

Quote:

I disagree about DX - for me, it was a fantastic game and I can't see any relationship between it and the decline of the genre. It was a continuation of the work and concepts developed by Looking Glass, which started a long time before. And, as I ask in the newsbit: where are all the copy-cats? If DX started the decline of the genre, why are shooter/RPGs relatively rare?
I'm with you there, it had a massive influence on me. One of my favourite RPGs and a huge inspiration for Scars of War.

WorstUsernameEver April 19th, 2010 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by irtehyar (Post 1061008033)
You know, if Fallout 3 made the list, Oblivion should. Same gameplay, but heck - you can even pause gameplay in F3 to use VATS constantly like I did. Oblivion was more fps to me than F3. ;-)

Not that I would've voted for Oblivion, for the level scaling alone.

Well, it misses the shooting part, unless you count 'shooting arrows' :P

Thrasher April 19th, 2010 20:58

Deus Ex for me, although I haven't played the original System Shock (as well as NOFL 1 and 2). More games to add to the list. :)

System Shock 2 was great but was missing the story and NPC interaction branching of DE.

wolfing April 19th, 2010 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by JemyM (Post 1061007983)
NOLF is a series which I along with STALKER , sims and UFO like to use to smash presumptions about what an RPG is to pieces. I wouldn't put NOLF2 in the RPG category either even if NOLF actually had dialogue choices too. Skilltrees, experiencepoints, dialogue choices… Still, it's not as free as I need a rpg to be. You still run a pretty much predetermined path like any fps. Still a fun game though, easilly as good as if not better than NOLF1.

If having 'paths' is a requirement for you to name something an RPG then I guess almost no jRPGs should be named RPGs :)

Thrasher April 19th, 2010 21:22

Neither should the Diablos by that measure. These are just lesser RPGs (in my view at least).

xSamhainx April 19th, 2010 22:19

Fallout III babayyyyy

i dont think it's gonna win tho

irtehyar April 19th, 2010 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by WorstUsernameEver (Post 1061008043)
Well, it misses the shooting part, unless you count 'shooting arrows' :P

… and spells! I do. It's shooting at things from a first person perspective. I think that pretty much sums it up. :)

CraigCWB April 20th, 2010 00:10

No, Deus Ex failed to *you*, and you seem to be the minority here.

Yes, I've noticed that. And it bugs me, since this is supposed to be an RPG site.

You also seem to have convinced yourself that what you're saying is actually true.

lol. Dude, I've been around a long time. I was arguing against the stupid mistakes of the game companies BEFORE they made them. I may not be "right", but the evidence in front of your face if you look at the current state of affairs in the RPG genre or in the PC game industry in general is pretty solid evidence I'm not wrong.

As to your "million copies" of Deus Ex, I'd like to see some stats on how many of those copies sold at full price, vs $19.99 (break even point) or $9.99 (we're bleeding money here!) but nobody ever makes such data public. I recall when Myst was the "best selling game ever". After 2 years of every PC vendor giving away a copy of the game with every new computer, and magazines including a free Myst CD with their subscriptions.

CraigCWB April 20th, 2010 00:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cassius (Post 1061008025)
My answer is "no", but I'm mystified as to why you're pinning blame on Deus Ex after a decade of Diablo clones and MMORPGs.

I'm actually not pinning blame on Dues Ex. It didn't have much influence, as you say. I'm pinning blame on Warren Spector. He was rocketed into the lime light out of nowhere and somehow became the master designer behind System Shock and Ultima Underworld, at a time when the "old breed" of master game designers were being dragged through the mud. He's the one who coined this "immersion" BS that we still hear so much about today, and he did that BEFORE DX was released (I disagree with Dhruin about the timing of it all).

That's far from the only problem in the industry, back then, though. You're right about the negative impact MMOs had on single player games. It's really pretty awful that a lot of young (and some not so young) designers seem to think the dull and repetitive gameplay of persistent world online games is a model to be copied in single player products. The only reason that works in online games is because they are social games lol.


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