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-   -   Favourite shooter/RPG? (https://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10378)

Dhruin April 18th, 2010 02:00

Favourite shooter/RPG?
 
With Mass Effect 2 just behind us and Alpha Protocol a mere month or so away, I thought we'd look at the best shooter/RPGs. Feel free to add others in the comments or argue a genre definition.

On a personal note, I'm surprised this isn't a better represented genre - and why has noone tried to improve on Deus Ex?

Have at it.

JemyM April 18th, 2010 02:01

I have a soft spot for No One Lives Forever even if Deus Ex wins. NOLF2 does have RPG stats.

Dhruin April 18th, 2010 02:04

Yep, I loved NOLF (2). It will be interesting to see if many people think it should have been included.

A number of great games here, which is why I'm surprised we don't see more of them. System Shock 2 for me, with a special mention for Bloodlines, being the truest "RPG" of the group.

migwell April 18th, 2010 02:40

It's a good list, but the one I play through and enjoy yearly is Deus Ex.

Can't believe that Boiling Point is on there, though. I struggled through that immensely flawed game, wishing all the while that it could somehow be miraculously cleaned up to work decently, but no… The Gothic games were much better than that.

bemushroomed April 18th, 2010 02:54

STALKER series for sure, i dont know a single game that comes even close when it comes to atmosphere, maybe System Shock2 though, which i replay every now and then.. those are on the list of games which i've actually cared to play to the very end, which says a lot ;)

Deus Ex was good, never played it to the end though, got tired before that.

Boiling Point was fun and atmospheric but not very engaging.

Nex April 18th, 2010 04:05

System Shock 2, such a great game

Bedwyr April 18th, 2010 04:49

Bloop. This is Xerxes. Can you not feel the glory of the flesh? Do you not yearn to be free of the tyranny of the individual? Bloop.

dagoo7 April 18th, 2010 06:48

I can entertain and understand Deus Ex as it is the closest in spirit and execution to System Shock 2 but I am so passed ME in all its forms that it just makes me sad to see that it is currently beating these games.

Dez April 18th, 2010 07:26

Deus Ex..no question there. I've played it through more than dozen times. Storytelling, gameworld, dialog, gameplay, music, exploration..everything works together flawlessly. The atmosphere in this game is just perfect. Its one of the most memorable gaming experiences. The new prequel shows promise though, but time will tell. At the very least it can't be worse than the horrible iw :-)

My second choise would be ofcourse Vampire Bloodlines. An other game that has no rivals in it's sub genre. We obviously need to see more vampire, cyberpunk and scifi themed rpgs. Even if developers aren't able to write orginal concepts. There are hundreds of cool licenses that would make amaizing rpgs. :-)

JDR13 April 18th, 2010 08:03

Tough choice… STALKER, SS2, and Deus Ex are all incredible games.

I don't agree with Bloodlines being on the list, it wasn't enough of a "shooter" imo. I even have a hard time thinking of Deus Ex that way…

Corwin April 18th, 2010 09:08

I object that there is neither a None of the Above, nor a Other choice. I'm NOT a fan of Shooter/RPG's in general, but for me the absolute standout is the Original System Shock!!

WorstUsernameEver April 18th, 2010 09:30

Since I haven't played both Deus Ex and SS2 I won't vote (doesn't seem really fair, does it?) but between these I'd choose S.T.A.L.K.E.R.
Yeah, it's more like a shooter with survivalist element that coincidentally look like rpg elements but it's really atmospheric, really open, and the gameplay is really really fun. Fallout 3 is great when it's modded (improving atmosphere and most of all gameplay) but still has an incredibly shitty melodramatic story with horrible writing and some shooters element aren't integrated too well with the SPECIAL system (perception? why should I care about perception really?).

bemushroomed April 18th, 2010 10:25

I think STALKER feels more like a "true" RPG than most RPG's, but i do consider exploring and freedom where to go a big (the biggest?) part of the RPG experience. Personally i despise Bioware for their boring level/world design ("crates, crates and hmm lets add some more crates why dont we?") and linear layout of everything.

bkrueger April 18th, 2010 10:59

Vampire: Bloodlines being on the list forces me to vote for it, because for me it is clearly the best game on the list from an RPG point of view.

However it is no RPG/Shooter in my view (at least not on the same level as the others in the list). I would rather classify it as pure RPG when compared to those others.

If VtM:B would not be on the list, I would choose the System Shock/Deus Ex "Franchise".

WorstUsernameEver April 18th, 2010 11:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkrueger (Post 1061007893)
Vampire: Bloodlines being on the list forces me to vote for it, because for me it is clearly the best game on the list from an RPG point of view.

However it is no RPG/Shooter in my view (at least not on the same level as the others in the list). I would rather classify it as pure RPG when compared to those others.

If VtM:B would not be on the list, I would choose the System Shock/Deus Ex "Franchise".

I loved VtM:B but I don't feel like it deserves a 1st spot. The gameplay is mostly bad, since it was the first (and last, sadly) attempt of Troika at creating something in 1st person with RPG mechanics and they missed the sweet spot of player skill vs. character skill by a mile.
Really, the RPG mechanics were mostly good, but the combat at the end felt mostly unrewarding and boring. (this would have been mitigated a lot if combat didn't became mandatory after Hollywood).

Kostas April 18th, 2010 11:08

VtM:B is my favourite game of those but imo it's not really a shooter/RPG.

I voted for Stalker,best atmosphere in a video game since the original Gothic.

purpleblob April 18th, 2010 14:01

Aaah I remember NOLF. That was one fun shooter game. But can it be classified as RPG?

JemyM April 18th, 2010 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by purpleblob (Post 1061007903)
Aaah I remember NOLF. That was one fun shooter game. But can it be classified as RPG?

Second game.

http://jemym.no-ip.com/ss/nolf2.jpg

Malk April 18th, 2010 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by WorstUsernameEver (Post 1061007894)
I loved VtM:B but I don't feel like it deserves a 1st spot. The gameplay is mostly bad, since it was the first (and last, sadly) attempt of Troika at creating something in 1st person with RPG mechanics and they missed the sweet spot of player skill vs. character skill by a mile.

You know, talking and questing are also part of the gameplay. ;)

dteowner April 18th, 2010 19:10

I'm surprised that you didn't put Bioshock up as a choice. Very similar to DX in terms of RPG aspects (character development, story, atmosphere). I've only played a few of the choices, so I won't vote, but I would have picked DX with Bioshock missing.

Acleacius April 18th, 2010 19:13

Could making the polls different make them more accurate?

There are probably some statisticians on here who could tell us, are we really missing some vital details about how each games effect us by saying you can only pick one. Notably very worthy titles go unnoticed/scored since there maybe a single clear winner.

What if we each had 1 point for ever 2 poll choices, so in this case of 8 choices we got 4 points to spend OR ever better what if we could rate each game from 1 to 5?

WorstUsernameEver April 18th, 2010 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malk (Post 1061007914)
You know, talking and questing are also part of the gameplay. ;)

You make a good point, but it doesn't really change my main criticism : some really questionable design decisions when they decided how to make the PnP mechanics work in a 1st person action-rpg game (in first person nonetheless so yeah I find its presence in the 'shooter/rpg' poll perfectly justified even if it's much more of an rpg than a shooter).

tazpn April 18th, 2010 22:30

They did try to improve on Deus Ex (ala Deus Ex: Invisible War). They failed miserably but it was tried. We shall see how Human Revolution does.

I agree NOLF/NOLF2 could be included but I'm ok with it out. Bioshock should probably be included though it wouldn't change my vote of Deus Ex.

Dez April 19th, 2010 00:24

Thanks JemyM for mentioning nolf series here. I really enjoyed that james bond parody humour and odd 60s culture references :) Speaking of shooters with stats. If nolf 2 drops into this category, we can't overlook Dark messiah or blade of darkness games. Both are really good medevil fantasy themed action games with rpg flavour :)

As for stalker..i haven't even played it yet. it seems that I've missed something remarkable.

Ashbery76 April 19th, 2010 01:59

Deus Ex is legend.MassEffect2 is a close second.

Dhruin April 19th, 2010 03:27

RPGWatch - New Poll
 
Let's finally get a new poll up.
With Mass Effect 2 just behind us and Alpha Protocol a mere month or so away, I thought we'd look at the best shooter/RPGs. Feel free to add others in the comments or argue a genre definition.

On a personal note, I'm surprised this isn't a better represented genre - and why has noone tried to improve on Deus Ex?

Have at it, by clicking "vote" on the right-hand side.
More information.

CraigCWB April 19th, 2010 03:27

I'm not an FPS fan. Haven't been since Doom, really, though I keep playing them when i get bored So, I'm biased. But in my opinion the Mass Effect games pretty much have to be the best shooter/RPG hybrids, because they are the only ones as of yet that bothered to incorporate more than superficial RPG design.

…and why has noone tried to improve on Deus Ex?

I played the first one and thought it was pretty bad. It seemed like they gimped the Unreal engine so that they could make their pseudo-RPG stuff like sneaking and stealth attacks work, which made it a poor shooter. And then they didn't bother with adding enough RPG-ishness to it to make up for what they'd removed from Unreal. Ended up being a hybrid that was simultaneously a bad FPS and a bad RPG. When people set out to make hybrids they need to decide what they want to focus on and really knock it out of the park on that side, and then add in the hybrid stuff as a freebie that adds value to an already good game. Deus Ex didn't manage that. I never played the second one. I'm not big on second chances.

CraigCWB April 19th, 2010 03:31

By the way: if we get to include Fallout 3 in this category, I'd give that an edge over either Mass Effect game. Just based on the fact I spent more time with it and had more fun with it. Ideally, I'd like to see a game that had Bethesda's Sandbox style (which they do really well) and Bioware's characters and storyline (which is what Bioware is really good at). I guess collaborations like that don't happen in the real world, though.

JDR13 April 19th, 2010 04:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by CraigCWB (Post 1061007954)
…and why has noone tried to improve on Deus Ex?

I played the first one and thought it was pretty bad. It seemed like they gimped the Unreal engine so that they could make their pseudo-RPG stuff like sneaking and stealth attacks work, which made it a poor shooter. And then they didn't bother with adding enough RPG-ishness to it to make up for what they'd removed from Unreal. Ended up being a hybrid that was simultaneously a bad FPS and a bad RPG.


Well everyone's welcome to their opinion… even if it's crazy. ;)

CraigCWB April 19th, 2010 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDR13 (Post 1061007957)
Well everyone's welcome to their opinion… even if it's crazy. ;)

That's what I used to say about Warren Spector, when I was feeling charitable :p

Seriously, System Shock was a great game. I don't know how he could have gone so far wrong unless he didn't actually DO anything on the original System Shock team except yak on the phone all day.

This is an RPG forum, right? Are you happy with what's been done with RPGs in the last 10 years? I'm not. And Deus Ex was part of the problem that got the genre to where it is now.

CraigCWB April 19th, 2010 06:38

PS JDR13,

Did you play Unreal when it first came out? Can you tell me with a straight face that Deus Ex was anywhere near as good as Unreal, evaluating it as an FPS? I'll assume you say "no". Next question: What RPG released in the same time frame would Deus Ex compare favorably to? I can't even claim it was as good as action-RPGs that tanked, like Nox. Because, it wasn't. Original System Shock came out while Doom was still the hot FPS. And, System Shock was a better FPS than Doom. By a lot. Completely different dynamic.

JDR13 April 19th, 2010 07:32

Why would you even compare Dues Ex to games like Unreal and Doom?

CraigCWB April 19th, 2010 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDR13 (Post 1061007966)
Why would you even compare Dues Ex to games like Unreal and Doom?

Why wouldn't I compare it to Unreal? It's a shooter/RPG (with emphasis on shooter) that used the Unreal engine, and was released shortly after Unreal.

What I can't understand is why people are comparing Deus Ex to games liek Vampire: The Masqurade.

Really? Seriously?

It seems to me that there are three different categories in that list:

Category I (shooters w/RPG elements)

STALKER
DEUS EX
SYSTEM SHOCK 2 (Why 2? 1 was so much better )
BORDERLANDS

Category II (RPGs w/shooter game mechanics)

FALLOUT 3
MASS EFFECT 1/2
VAMPIRE : BLOODLINES

Category 3 (games I never heard of)

BOILING POINT

I seriously have no idea why anybody in an RPG forum would choose any of the games from Category I over any of the games in Category II. But I see that a majority did.

To each his own, as you said. But are you sure you're an RPG fan?

JDR13 April 19th, 2010 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by CraigCWB (Post 1061007968)
I seriously have no idea why anybody in an RPG forum would choose any of the games from Category I over any of the games in Category II. But I see that a majority did.

I don't know.. maybe because they have different tastes than you?


Quote:

Originally Posted by CraigCWB (Post 1061007968)
To each his own, as you said. But are you sure you're an RPG fan?

You're trying to convince us that Deus Ex is closer to Unreal than it is to VtMB. Are you sure you've even played any of these games?

bkrueger April 19th, 2010 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by CraigCWB (Post 1061007968)
Why wouldn't I compare it to Unreal? It's a shooter/RPG (with emphasis on shooter) that used the Unreal engine, and was released shortly after Unreal.

What I can't understand is why people are comparing Deus Ex to games liek Vampire: The Masqurade.

Really? Seriously?

It seems to me that there are three different categories in that list:

Category I (shooters w/RPG elements)

STALKER
DEUS EX
SYSTEM SHOCK 2 (Why 2? 1 was so much better )
BORDERLANDS

Category II (RPGs w/shooter game mechanics)

FALLOUT 3
MASS EFFECT 1/2
VAMPIRE : BLOODLINES

Category 3 (games I never heard of)

BOILING POINT

I seriously have no idea why anybody in an RPG forum would choose any of the games from Category I over any of the games in Category II. But I see that a majority did.

To each his own, as you said. But are you sure you're an RPG fan?

While I share your opinion about Bloodlines being more RPG-ish than all the rest (I wrote about that in the other thread on the poll)…

….your idea to list Mass Effect 2 as more RPG-ish than DeusEx makes me want to vomit.

CraigCWB April 19th, 2010 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corwin (Post 1061007887)
I object that there is neither a None of the Above, nor a Other choice. I'm NOT a fan of Shooter/RPG's in general, but for me the absolute standout is the Original System Shock!!

I'm with you on that! System Shock when it first came out was mind blowing. That was one of my favorite games of the 1990s (of all genres, and there were a LOT of good games in the 1990s).

I lasted about 3 hours in System Shock 2. Maybe 4 hours in Deus Ex, and about the same in STALKER. I consider all 3 of those to have been a waste of my money.

Mass Effect 1/2, VTM, Fallout 3… I liked all those fine and consider them all to be actual RPGs, but I'm not at all happy about Bioware's emphasis on "interactive cinema" (how can ME be considered a shooter, when it's 1 hour fighting per 10 hours of dialogues/cutscenes/running around?) or with Bethesda's Sand Box (only)philosophy. Game designers threw people like me over the side in 2000 though, so who cares? Everyone else is obviously a happy camper. I'd prefer if the term "roleplaying game" was just retired though, because it's damn insulting to people who like roleplaying games to imply a game like STALKER could qualify, by any definition.

CraigCWB April 19th, 2010 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkrueger (Post 1061007970)
While I share your opinion about Bloodlines being more RPG-ish than all the rest (I wrote about that in the other thread on the poll)…

….your idea to list Mass Effect 2 as more RPG-ish than DeusEx makes me want to vomit.

Deus Ex isn't an RPG, at all. It's a pretentious shooter, and that's all it is. Even go back to what Warren Spector was saying when it was in development, and you can see how he was going on and on about "immersion". He's one of those "The media IS the message!" guys who cranks out interactive idiotware for the masses. I'm just surprised to find that demographic, here.

Are you guys happy with the current state of affairs in the RPG genre?

That's a "yes" or "no" that I'm looking for. If you answered no, then Warren Spector and Deus Ex are (part) of what you should have a grievance about. If you answered "yes"… then enjoy!

bkrueger April 19th, 2010 09:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by CraigCWB (Post 1061007972)
Deus Ex isn't an RPG, at all. It's a pretentious shooter, and that's all it is. Even go back to what Warren Spector was saying when it was in development, and you can see how he was going on and on about "immersion". He's one of those "The media IS the message!" guys who cranks out interactive idiotware for the masses. I'm just surprised to find that demographic, here.

Are you guys happy with the current state of affairs in the RPG genre?

That's a "yes" or "no" that I'm looking for. If you answered no, then Warren Spector and Deus Ex are (part) of what you should have a grievance about. If you answered "yes"… then enjoy!

I agree that there are reasons not be happy with the current state in the genre. But for me ME 2 is definitely a bigger part of that problem than DeusEx.

CraigCWB April 19th, 2010 09:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkrueger (Post 1061007973)
I agree that there are reasons not be happy with the current state in the genre. But for me ME 2 is definitely a bigger part of that problem than DeusEx.

I disagree. Mainly, because Deus Ex and Warren Spector were front and center when the PC game industry made the change in direction that put us where we are today. I'm not letting Bioware off the hook, because the direction they went in deciding to follow up Baldur's Gate 2 with Neverwinter Nights (and the KOTOR) is equally to blame. I'm just not blaming Mass Effect for being the game that it is, because in today's market it could be no other. Look how many people in even THIS forum are choosing a product like STALKER over Mass Effect and Fallout 3? What message does that send developers? If today's RPG developers are the same sort of idiot they were 10 years ago, they are going to start making their games more like STALKER.

purpleblob April 19th, 2010 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by JemyM (Post 1061007906)

Oh, I see. I haven't played NOLF2 and played NOLF1 a LOOOONG time ago. I honestly can't remember rpg element in 1st game tho. It was more spy/shooter game from my memory.


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