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-   -   Witcher 3 - 11 things CD Project Needs to do - editorital @ Strategy Informer (https://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19593)

aries100 February 21st, 2013 18:22

Witcher 3 - 11 things CD Project Needs to do - editorital @ Strategy Informer
 
Strategy Informer has penned an editorial about what they think CD Project needs to do in the Witcher 3 game. They've made a list of 11 things they want to see, here's the second thing they think would be a good idea in Witcher 3
Quote:

2: Don't try to be Skyrim
Frankly, I am terrified by the open-world concept. Director Konrad Tomaszkiewicz comments in the announcement video, "everyone likes open-world games, we should go this way." Should they? I'm not so sure. Aside from the tremendous difficulties Point 3 brings up, there's the fact that while there's only really been one series that has truly made open-world RPGs work - the Elder Scrolls games - their exploration value hides a lot of flaws, most notably in storytelling. While I like the idea that CD Projekt have looked at Skyrim and gone "we want to do that", Bethesda have been perfecting the art of open-world RPGs since 1992 and they still haven't gotten it perfect. The idea of marrying the incredible openness of Skyrim to the attention to detail of The Witcher is an intoxicating idea, but only as long as CD Projekt know what they're getting into. In short: don't make another Skyrim guys, make your own great open-world game. And finally…
And here's their idea # 11:
Quote:

9: Actually tell us about important Witcher things
Thanks to CD Projekt’s work I am now a fan of Polish author Andrzej Sapkowski’s excellent original novels too, but you can’t assume that all players will be familiar with them. Peter Jackson’s Lord of the Rings films still tell and show us why Mordor is a threat, and HBO’s Game of Thrones has done a great job making sure TV viewers are scared of the White Walkers as George RR Martin fans already were.
Therefore, please CD Projekt tell (or better, show) us why we should hear the name “Nilfgaard” and shudder as we utterly failed to do in either of the games. Nilfgaard is a brutal empire that inspires fear and is regularly at war with the rest of Temeria in Sapkowski’s books, but they’re just a random location with an ugly ambassador in The Witcher 2. Let players know these things, and if Witcher 3 fails to explain who Yennefer is properly I’ll be cross.
More information.

rjshae February 21st, 2013 18:22

…because CD Project obviously doesn't know what the heck they're doing. :p

Couchpotato February 21st, 2013 18:33

Oh look another opinion piece on how they think the game should be. At this point the games have nothing to do with the books. The author himself even said so.

Go to the witcher forums and you will see pages of topics on this subject.

The game was my first taste of the stetting and made me watch the polish movie and tv series subbed in English.The books aren't even fully translated in English six years later. Damn slow pokes.:)

Cacheperl February 21st, 2013 19:14

Quote:

2: Don't try to be Skyrim
I concur.

joxer February 21st, 2013 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjshae (Post 1061185291)
…because CD Project obviously doesn't know what the heck they're doing. :p

Came to type exactly that.

Maylander February 21st, 2013 19:46

That being said, CDP hardly makes perfect games, and I do agree with most of the list. Especially:
- Savegame imports.
- Witcher stuff. The Witchers are pretty interesting, but we generally don't get to know a lot about them.
- Don't let consoles decide what to do.
- Don't try to be Skyrim.

I trust CDP enough to assume they'll get the rest right.

MigRib February 21st, 2013 20:22

Quote:

The game was my first taste of the stetting and made me watch the polish movie and tv series subbed in English.The books aren't even fully translated in English six years later. Damn slow pokes.:)
I red one of the books, I think there are two of them translated, but maybe more since then. I don't find it that very strange (just annoying): the spanish swashbuckling series El Capitan Alatriste is also a few books behind schedule, although there is a movie that, even though it is a co-production, stars Viggo Mortensen as the main character.

Couchpotato February 21st, 2013 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by MigRib (Post 1061185317)
I red one of the books, I think there are two of them translated, but maybe more since then. I don't find it that very strange (just annoying)

The problem is words don't always translate well and you have to substitute words. Still it shouldn't take six years to translate books already written.

Then what do I know since Atlus claims they need three years to translate one game. I'll have to check out the El Capitan Alatriste series you talked about in the meantime.

Thaurin February 21st, 2013 23:09

I'm compelled to mention Gothic here. Maybe not as open as The Elder Scrolls, but still pretty damn open and far superior in story-telling.

rune_74 February 22nd, 2013 03:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjshae (Post 1061185291)
…because CD Project obviously doesn't know what the heck they're doing. :p

They have made two games and neither were open world games…unless I have missed a game?

mazur49 February 22nd, 2013 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Couchpotato (Post 1061185340)
The problem is words don't always translate well and you have to substitute words. Still it shouldn't take six years to translate books already written.

Then what do I know since Atlus claims they need three years to translate one game. I'll have to check out the El Capitan Alatriste series you talked about in the meantime.

You probably would change your opinion on the matter if you consider the fact that CDP does not own Witcher franchise. It's not like Elder Scrolls or Mass Effect where Bethesda and Bioware holding everything in their hands. Witcher as a brand and franchise on the contrary belongs to pan Andrzej Sapkowski. CDP has no influence over books and all related matters. These very circumstances may cause some trouble ahead. Sapkowski is writing a new book about Geralt and his vision of the story would probably not be eye to eye to CDP version. So it's more now sort of race in the time on who is to be the first presenting new chapter in Geralt's story. It's important because by being first this version will get a canonical status and would greatly influence (positively or negatively) the perception of the second.

rjshae February 22nd, 2013 06:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by rune_74 (Post 1061185413)
They have made two games and neither were open world games…unless I have missed a game?

Strategy Informer has made a renowned open world fantasy CRPG? Perhaps I spoke out of turn.

rune_74 February 22nd, 2013 06:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjshae (Post 1061185454)
Strategy Informer has made a renowned open world fantasy CRPG? Perhaps I spoke out of turn.

I'm not sure how you missed I was talking about cdprojekt?

Couchpotato February 22nd, 2013 06:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by mazur49 (Post 1061185433)
You probably would change your opinion on the matter if you consider the fact that CDP does not own Witcher franchise. It's not like Elder Scrolls or Mass Effect where Bethesda and Bioware holding everything in their hands. Witcher as a brand and franchise on the contrary belongs to pan Andrzej Sapkowski. CDP has no influence over books and all related matters. These very circumstances may cause some trouble ahead. Sapkowski is writing a new book about Geralt and his vision of the story would probably not be eye to eye to CDP version. So it's more now sort of race in the time on who is to be the first presenting new chapter in Geralt's story. It's important because by being first this version will get a canonical status and would greatly influence (positively or negatively) the perception of the second.

Yes very insightful but I already said the games and books have nothing to do with each other. My reply was for MigRib not the game itself.

They author and the English publishers had six years to translate all the novels and barely have three available in English. I'm not counting the fan translations.

JDR13 February 22nd, 2013 07:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by rune_74 (Post 1061185413)
They have made two games and neither were open world games…unless I have missed a game?

So what's your point?

MigRib February 22nd, 2013 10:41

Quote:

Yes very insightful but I already said the games and books have nothing to do with each other. My reply was for MigRib not the game itself.

They author and the English publishers had six years to translate all the novels and barely have three available in English. I'm not counting the fan translations.
Ouch, six years sounds like a lot of time for ten books (more or less). I'm no translator, but I know several and if they took that long they would living on the streets by now… I suppose it has something to do with yhe polish language - or else, they don't think it will make much money translated. Anyway, from what I red until now - which is only The Last Wish - it looks that the games are being faithful to the spirit of the books. They aren't quite fantasy, as in the average american fantasy writer. The stories apear to be more about fables mixed up with some mythical, religious and fantasy stuff, but portraying themes that are very modern, like xenophobia, addictions, segregation, famine and disease in impoverished areas, complicated relationships, and so on. The satyrical tone does seem to be well balanced too.

MigRib February 22nd, 2013 11:51

I agree with most of the things in this editorial, but I get the feeling that it was unnecessary to state all that. Most of the points probably were discussed when the previous entries in The Witcher saga were published and they are mostly common sense. So, I suppose the important point is the open world thing. I have little info on that, I have no knowledge of game design and game industry, but after seeing the CDPR videos I (being a journalist - even an unemployed one) got the feeling that they were courting the press. They talk too much about Skyrim (nowadays if you want to get the attention of the press talking about an open world just mention Skyrim. The same happened with Far Cry 3). They talk too much about other Bethesda's game. It would be great iif they could combine the open world of Bethesda with the story-driven Bioware games, but I suppose that's not really possible - or it might be possible, but impractical, too long to prepare and make and way too expensive. Are they really trying to do an story-driven open world Witcher 3? I don't know, but I doubt they will try to do something like Skyrim. It looks more like a marketing approach. Of course they will have to make a much bigger world, and make it open from the beggining, or else they will be accused of being lying before.

zahratustra February 22nd, 2013 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by mazur49 (Post 1061185433)
Sapkowski is writing a new book about Geralt and his vision of the story would probably not be eye to eye to CDP version.

While that is true even Sapkowski doesn't see eye to eye with Sapkowski. Up until Hussite Trylogy he was a talented short stories writter but only a mediocre novelist. Compared to stories collected in The Witcher and Sword of Destiny his The Saga (5 Witcher books) starts ok and gets messy and incoherent as it progresses…

rune_74 February 23rd, 2013 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDR13 (Post 1061185465)
So what's your point?

Um, that they have no experience making open world games so far….not sure how that is hard to follow.

JDR13 February 23rd, 2013 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by rune_74 (Post 1061185582)
Um, that they have no experience making open world games so far….not sure how that is hard to follow.

How many open-world games did Bethesda make prior to Arena?

rune_74 February 23rd, 2013 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDR13 (Post 1061185588)
How many open-world games did Bethesda make prior to Arena?

Yes, because arena and skyrim are at the same level.

DArtagnan February 23rd, 2013 09:35

Arena was pretty crappy, as I recall.

Crilloan February 23rd, 2013 09:42

I dont want another open-world game.

Give me story and characters instead.

Since Skyrim made such publicity every publisher and game developer seems to feel the need to follow int that direction ( or say they will). I Hope its just a pr stunt.

C

JDR13 February 23rd, 2013 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by rune_74 (Post 1061185591)
Yes, because arena and skyrim are at the same level.

By 1994 standards, yeah, I'd say they're probably pretty close in terms of scope and ambition. In fact, a lot of fans would say Skyrim is dumbed down compared to Arena.

Not sure what any of this has to do with Skyrim though.

Nameless one February 23rd, 2013 14:31

I don't think game will be anything like skyrim I don't think it fits CDPR and Witcher series.I am pretty certain game will be far smaller in scale and more dense with content.

Also all things on list in article seem pretty reasonable.

DeepO February 23rd, 2013 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nameless one (Post 1061185631)
I don't think game will be anything like skyrim I don't think it fits CDPR and Witcher series.I am pretty certain game will be far smaller in scale and more dense with content.

Another possibility could be same scale, but with different distribution of content - few content-dense centres along with content-light landscapes meant to be traversed/explored quickly on a horse.

DArtagnan February 23rd, 2013 21:47

Making a non-linear open world game with "dense content" on the level of Witcher is all but impossible with this kind of timeframe. Unless your world is REALLY small.

It would be senseless to have wide open landscapes with light content - because then the biggest aspect of open world games would be lost = worthwhile exploration.

There's little doubt these guys have talent - but in this case, I'm worried they might have bitten over more than they can chew.

Skyrim was exceptional at what it did - but it's also the result of a VERY large and VERY experienced team having done iterations of similar designs for two decades.

Everything about Witcher 3 SOUNDS great - but I'm certainly getting sceptical they can really pull this off.

Soulbane February 24th, 2013 01:06

"there’s the fact that while there’s only really been one series that has truly made open-world RPGs work – the Elder Scrolls games"

This is where they lost me. That's a huge overstatement, if I ever saw one. They may have made open world RPGs sell due to moving the genre to mass market via consoles, but they sure as hell haven't made it "work" as it is, at least not exclusively. Several degrees of open world have been achieved with - in my opinion - far greater success in cohesion and overall quality than in TES games.

rune_74 February 24th, 2013 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulbane (Post 1061185711)
"there’s the fact that while there’s only really been one series that has truly made open-world RPGs work – the Elder Scrolls games"

This is where they lost me. That's a huge overstatement, if I ever saw one. They may have made open world RPGs sell due to moving the genre to mass market via consoles, but they sure as hell haven't made it "work" as it is, at least not exclusively. Several degrees of open world have been achieved with - in my opinion - far greater success in cohesion and overall quality than in TES games.

name one? Be honest here and not with the weird hate generated here.

Couchpotato February 24th, 2013 02:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by rune_74 (Post 1061185720)
name one? Be honest here and not with the weird hate generated here.

I'm curious also. There are plenty of games that tried and failed but your right. I can't think of any as successful as Bethesda either. Some might say the Gothic series but there wrong.

JDR13 February 24th, 2013 04:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Couchpotato (Post 1061185723)
I'm curious also. There are plenty of games that tried and failed but your right. I can't think of any as successful as Bethesda either. Some might say the Gothic series but there wrong.

I don't think Soulbane was talking about sales numbers. Maybe you should try reading his post again.

Couchpotato February 24th, 2013 06:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDR13 (Post 1061185725)
I don't think Soulbane was talking about sales numbers. Maybe you should try reading his post again.

I wasn't talking just about sales number. Quality,skill, and sales none have ever beat Bethesda. But thank you for your response. As usual.;)

zahratustra February 24th, 2013 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeepO (Post 1061185651)
Another possibility could be same scale, but with different distribution of content - few content-dense centres along with content-light landscapes meant to be traversed/explored quickly on a horse.

I'm with DArt on this. If the whole game world isn't equaly explorable than "content-light landscapes" become useless, time wasting artificial padding.

JDR13 February 24th, 2013 08:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Couchpotato (Post 1061185728)
I wasn't talking just about sales number. Quality,skill, and sales none have ever beat Bethesda. But thank you for your response. As usual.;)

Well then maybe that's what you should have actually said. I know.. tough concept for you to grasp, right?

Anyways, quality is completely subjective, and to claim that Bethesda is tops in that category is nothing more than an opinion. Personally, I've enjoyed their games a lot, but quantity doesn't equal quality. They can definitely lay claim to having the largest open-world games, but I don't think they're the most compelling.

bjon045 February 24th, 2013 10:15

A more semi-open world like Gothic 2 would be a very good thing in my opinion. There should be a genuine good reason why you can't move to the next area or go back to the original areas. If you struggle with certain optional mobs, nothing should prevent you going back later and cleaning them up - unless someone else gets there before you.

Mr Smiley February 24th, 2013 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by zahratustra (Post 1061185729)
If the whole game world isn't equaly explorable than "content-light landscapes" become useless, time wasting artificial padding.

You could also call this "padding" realism. In most games, including previous Witcher games, if you are travelling on a path through the woods, you can't stray from the path. Would it not be nice if you could, even if the woods contained little else but trees? In reality, you seldom leave the path unless you are hunting for berries, mushrooms or prey. Which could be useful when gathering ingredients for alchemy in a fantasy game. "Padding" is not time wasting, unless exploring it is mandatory. Neither is there anything particularly "artificial" about such padding, whereas small, insurmountable fences and invisible walls come across as artificial.

JDR13 February 24th, 2013 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Smiley (Post 1061185739)
In most games, including previous Witcher games, if you are travelling on a path through the woods, you can't stray from the path.

Eh? That's certainly not how I remember the Witcher games. There were some forced paths in TW1, but I recall TW2 being completely open within the boundaries of its levels.

Mr Smiley February 24th, 2013 12:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDR13 (Post 1061185740)
Eh? That's certainly not how I remember the Witcher games. There were some forced paths in TW1, but I recall TW2 being completely open within the boundaries of its levels.

I'm old and my memory is not what it used to be. Nevertheless, I seem to recall at least some particularly silly insurmountable fences in the first Withcer game. But the way my mind works these days, it might have been a Fable game. Anyway, I'm talking about genral game design here, which tend to be of the canyon variety.

As contrast, I loved the way you could wander off into randomly generated wilderness in Daggerfall, to mention a game with a truly open world. My point being that "padding" can add tremendously to the immersion factor. Like the mostly empty city of Los Angelse in L.A. Noir, for instance.

Nice as it is with content heavy game worlds like Skyrim, there is something wrong with "forgotten" ruins and "secret" hideouts in plain sight just outside of town.

DeepO February 24th, 2013 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by zahratustra (Post 1061185729)
I'm with DArt on this. If the whole game world isn't equaly explorable than "content-light landscapes" become useless, time wasting artificial padding.

The outrage!

"Equally explorable" tends to lead to the theme park syndrome and diminishing of verisimilitude factor.
I don´t think that one or more points of interests being within a stone´s throw of pretty much wherever you are is a prerequisite for worthwhile exploration.

That aside, I´m "proposing" content-light landscapes as a possible "means" to retain quality-heaviness.
Imagine world roughly of same size as Skyrim´s, but with, say, 3x less of wilderness locations/points of interests. Then imagine that these points of interests are, say, on average, of 2x higher quality (design, uniqueness, quest content, etc.) than Skyrim´s.
Assuming the same running speed, what would you choose?

Also note that the horse could potentially diminish some of what you call "time wasting artificial padding" if it´s faster than the Skyrim iterations.

As a side note, Skyrim may be light on padding when it comes to finding new locations, but is in my opinion heavy on padding when it comes to the locations themselves, especially when it comes to dungeons which tend to be longer/bigger than their uniqueness justifies.

At any rate, if the landmass is really 20% bigger than Skyrim´s and there´s no half-truth hidden in there (like, 70% of it actually not being traversable), there´s gotta be a catch somewhere :). Personally I hope the catch isn´t in a lot of content being generic and half-assed.

zahratustra February 24th, 2013 16:58

Well, DeepO your arguments convinced me :) All things considered (and remembering Skyrim), I'd rather have a number of areas with high levels on content surrounded by content light ones than having content spread equaly (and more thinly) over the whole map.


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