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-   -   A thought about Knights of the Old Republic (https://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7499)

Bateman June 23rd, 2009 02:27

A thought about Knights of the Old Republic
 
Just started to play this game for the second time, this time I hope to finish it, and not get bored after 1/5th. So this game is meant to be set 40,000 years before the events in the movies? Interesting. So why does everything look the same then? The 30 years or so between Ep. I and Ep. IV seem to have brought more change to this "universe" than the 4 0 , 0 0 0 years before. Were George Lucas and all his advisors drunk when they decided to get into such dimensions? Or were the designers not briefed? Maybe the comics are different, I don't know.

I only finished the first planet (Taris). The "sith technicians" have uniforms like imperial officers, so has the "sith admiral" in the cut-scenes, the ones with the funny japanese hats. The ship you get looks like the direct predecessor of the millenium falcon. No development in 40,000 years it seems… :rolleyes:

Well, and the characters are dull and annoying and the good/bad thing is funny as shit at least. But I think these things have been mentioned before and that's not my main point here. Only those 40,000 years awww I keep on playing anyway, just wondering why I never read any criticism about that.

Moriendor June 23rd, 2009 02:57

It's "only" ~4,000 years not 40,000 ;) . But I fully agree that KotOR doesn't exactly contribute to any sense of continuity within the Star Wars universe.
I also agree with the terms "dull" and "annoying" but would not limit these terms to the characters only. Also, you forgot "boring", "repetitive", "predictable" and "generic".

JDR13 June 23rd, 2009 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moriendor (Post 1060955664)
Also, you forgot "boring", "repetitive", "predictable" and "generic".

Don't forget "overrated".

I have to agree with all of the above, although the story twist with the main character certainly wasn't predictable.

The fanboys will be storming this thread any minute now…..

Rithrandil June 23rd, 2009 03:17

I dunno, I liked it. I don't think it was TEH BEST GAME EVARSSSS but I highly enjoyed it. I always wondered about that technology bit, too, though. Is the "universe logic" that technology basically stopped developing?

txa1265 June 23rd, 2009 03:58

u r luz3rz lol

How is that for a fanboi rant?

I like KotOR I & II … but won't debate anything said here ;)

Prime Junta June 23rd, 2009 10:43

As I said in the other thread, IMO KOTOR is BioWare's best game overall so far. It has no glaring flaws, is well balanced, well written, has plenty of scope for choice, consequence, character development, and intra-party fun, and the gameplay is solid Star Wars d20.

There are some things that some BioWare games do better -- it doesn't have the breadth of BG2 in terms of character development choice or sheer quest quantity, for example -- but the same games also have severe flaws that KOTOR doesn't have.

That said, IMO BioWare is to cRPG's what Agatha Christie is to detective stories. As Raymond Chandler put it, she may not be the best writer of detective stories in the world, but she's probably the best writer of BORING detective stories. ;)

Maylander June 23rd, 2009 10:53

I love the KotOR games. Good story, good writing.

As for technological evolution: No matter how you twist and turn it, you'll never get anything remotely accurate in terms of evolution. The entire Star Wars universe is way off as far as technology goes (as is every sci-fi universe), simply because we can't imagine how things would evolve.

Among other things, the distances in space are way too big for "space ships" or "space travel". The very notion of flying around in space is silly. Either there's some sort of technology that will, more or less, instantly teleport us from point A to point B (highly unlikely, given the physical restrictions of the universe), or we might as well forget all about moving around in a galaxy. As long as the theory of relativity stands, there will be no space travel.

Another example is aliens. "Oooh, there has been aliens on earth!". No, there hasn't. That race would have to be roughly at the same stage in evolution, though obviously a bit ahead. If the difference is too big, they wouldn't be interested.

A few facts:
- The chance of a solar system actually having intelligent life is redicilously low, as there is a crazy list of coincidences that leads to something like that.
- The universe is almost 14 billion years old.
- If the few intelligent races that are out there are 1% either ahead or behind the human race in evolution, they're around 140 million years ahead or behind. It is completely impossible to imagine what a race with a headstart of 140 million years is capable of, but I assure you - they won't be floating around in UFOs. If they're behind us, they're still extremely primitive animals.

The list goes on and on. The chance of an alien race being at our stage in evolution, and within proximity of the earth, is so slim you could fill a whole book with 0,000..(fill a book here)..01%.

My point is: Enjoy fiction for what it is - a universe where they don't have the same rules and regulations we do. Our own universe has certain rules (especially regarding time/space) that are extremely annoying, and pretty much kills all fiction. The evolution in KotOR is certainly unlikely, but then again, the entire SW universe is highly unlikely, and will fall apart when compared to our own universe.

It's a good story, decent characters, and decent gameplay. I don't really put more into it than that.

Edit: I just have to add: Dozens of humanoid races that look more or less the same from completely different solar systems? If it's possible to accept that redicilous scenario, the lack of evolution should be no sweat.

Prime Junta June 23rd, 2009 11:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maylander (Post 1060955704)
Among other things, the distances in space are way too big for "space ships" or "space travel". The very notion of flying around in space is silly. Either there's some sort of technology that will, more or less, instantly teleport us from point A to point B (highly unlikely, given the physical restrictions of the universe), or we might as well forget all about moving around in a galaxy. As long as the theory of relativity stands, there will be no space travel.

Actually, some hypothetical warp drives are compatible with relativity -- or so I hear, anyway: I'm nowhere NEAR mathematically literate enough to be able to judge for myself. The idea is to warp space and move the ship through that -- relative to the warped space, the ship would be moving at sub-lightspeed, but once you un-warp it, it will have moved a longer distance. It's the same stuff that goes on in wormholes. So Star Trek's "warp factor nine" would kinda make sense.

(From where I'm at, this seems about at the same level as wormholes -- i.e., something that doesn't appear to be strictly ruled out by what we know of physics, but something that we can't say for certain is possible, and certainly haven't the faintest idea about how to do in practice.)

Quote:

My point is: Enjoy fiction for what it is - a universe where they don't have the same rules and regulations we do. Our own universe has certain rules (especially regarding time/space) that are extremely annoying, and pretty much kills all fiction. The evolution in KotOR is certainly unlikely, but then again, the entire SW universe is highly unlikely, and will fall apart when compared to our own universe.

It's a good story, decent characters, and decent gameplay. I don't really put more into it than that.
Words to the wise, there.

Maylander June 23rd, 2009 11:20

Well, black holes (wormholes consist of black holes) are rather hard to get information about, so we can't disgard the existence of worm holes yet (or their use for space, or even time, travel). As you mentioned, it is compatible with the theory of relativity, but the formation of such holes is rather unlikely (edit: Tho perhaps it is possible to create and maintain them through technological means. A "warp drive" is therefore not ruled out yet).

Anyhow, this is a topic for Stephen Hawking, who has done quite a bit of research on such holes and formations.

Prime Junta June 23rd, 2009 11:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maylander (Post 1060955704)
Edit: I just have to add: Dozens of humanoid races that look more or less the same from completely different solar systems? If it's possible to accept that redicilous scenario, the lack of evolution should be no sweat.

I've actually devised a space opera setting that accounts for that little problem.

In a nutshell:

Imagine an intelligent alien species that has a personality similar to cats. I.e., solitary, patient, inquisitive, utterly self-absorbed, and liable to do whatever they damn well please. Being highly intelligent and extremely advanced, this means that each individual tends to pursue their own interests. These creatures also communicate primarily in the electromagnetic spectrum, by modulating a magnetic field they produce, a bit like some varieties of fish.

Now, suppose that one such creature discovered the Earth, and, being inquisitive, got curious about it. It spent a couple of millennia observing and doing occasional cat-experiments on the denizens. Eventually it decided that, being completely different in terms of sensory apparatus, mental make-up, and what not, that there's no way it could interact with the interesting little bipeds on the planet as it is.

So, to solve this problem, the Big Cat decided to engineer and breed a "bridge species" -- something that's able to interact both with the interesting little bipeds and the Big Cat. So it took another couple of millennia to do that. Obviously, this is a bit of a handful, even for the Big Cat, so it's a process of trial and error -- breed some, get them to build a culture, perhaps drop a few onto the Earth to see what happens, rinse, and repeat. The end result was a variety of humanoid species of various temperaments, cultures, and physical characteristics.

Then the Big Cat discovered something completely different that grabbed its interest, and left, perhaps to build a galaxy-spanning network of wormholes or something, leaving its collection of vaguely humanoid alien cultures to fend for themselves. Hey, maybe it even got killed in a horribly hyperspace engineering accident.

I've been thinking of some stories to set in this universe. Perhaps one day I'll even get around to writing them down.

JemyM June 23rd, 2009 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prime Junta (Post 1060955702)
As I said in the other thread, IMO KOTOR is BioWare's best game overall so far. It has no glaring flaws, is well balanced, well written, has plenty of scope for choice, consequence, character development, and intra-party fun, and the gameplay is solid Star Wars d20.

What PJ said.

In the history of RPG's I hold KOTOR1/2 to be among the better games out there in just that. It doesn't have any glaring problems that ruin the game and it's pretty solid and balanced.

The d20 system is a fun system and very fitting for a computer RPG, and KOTOR even managed to extend the d20 system to fit that of a computergame. It's nice to see when a game goes the extra few steps to create a more lasting experience in which you can actually design a character your way, with a large amount of variables to toy with.

The writing is among the best when it comes to computergames, the game deals with important philosophical questions and there are very few games that have the attention to the characterdepth of your companions that KOTOR1/2 had. KOTOR1 also have one of the most memorable plottwists that I can remember.

Sure, there are things I can complain about, like my philosophical stance on "good" and "evil" that makes the "Dark" vs "Light" theme silly to me, the max 2 companions in a party limitation, the fact that it's pointless to not only use Jedi, that the game is easily broken by exploiting some of it's broken forcepowers etc… but overall I think KOTOR is still good.

Alrik Fassbauer June 23rd, 2009 16:12

The popularity of KOTOR is also visible via the price.

Even on ebay, the price very often never drops under the 15 Euros level. Mostly, it is over that, sometimes even around the 20s, which is the regular price still in the shops.

Krzychu June 23rd, 2009 17:46

I don't know very much about the SW universe outside of the movies, but I enjoyed KotOR. The story is great, gameplay is fun, and while I felt that some of the characters were underdeveloped, most of them were still very decent. The game actually made me think about the merits of the Dark Side and the Light Side, as something more than "kill the bad guys" and "let's kill everyone". Heck, I even questioned my own actions - should I break the Jedi code, just this once? If I do, will I be able to stop? Something like that :). I also liked a lot of the dialogues (I actually know some conversations/fragments by heart, heh).

Plus, unlike in many other games, you can really enjoy being evil, if you so desire. :biggrin: Playing a goody-two-shoes is also satisfying, only you also have to worry about not falling to the Dark Side (which is cool, too).

@Bateman: Give KotOR a chance. Maybe you started on the wrong planet or something. ;) Unless it's just really not your thing…

Konjad June 23rd, 2009 21:03

Quote:

The game actually made me think about the merits of the Dark Side and the Light Side, as something more than "kill the bad guys" and "let's kill everyone". Heck, I even questioned my own actions - should I break the Jedi code, just this once? If I do, will I be able to stop?
Just tell us what did you smoke that time so we might enjoy this experience as well ;)

BTW KotOR bored me as well, even when I forced myself to spend with it several hours. I don't know what's so good in this game. Characters are retarded, dialogues and story are boring (even if there is one nice twist in story). Quests aren't very original. And fighting is not fun as it was in Jade Empire for example. This whole game is boring. I haven't played KotOR 2 though.

Dusk June 23rd, 2009 21:50

I haven't played any Bioware game since this one. For better or worse, It's Star Wars. As a game themed on Star Wars universe, I don't think it's a bad game. Due to the plot twist, I think it manages to give the meaning to the extreme Light and Dark side contrast, which is also faithful to Star Wars (You know, "I'm your dad" thing). However, generally speaking, most of quests and characters are not interesting. Well, as for the characters, I think Bioware did it right with Star Wars setting since, for example, Han Solo is not known as a pinnacle of the deepest characters in movies history, though. I'm rather impressed by a trial quest but, outside of it, I cannot remember most of the quests. I ended up with playing a light side PC since I felt most of eeevul dark side options stupid. Also, playing as light side force wielder, I hit a glaring flaw in terms of gameplay. Each combat is extremely dull due to Force Wave. All of combats till the end were not challenging while the last fight is rather stupid than challenging. The last boss is almost immune to any force attacks. Of course, I let my PC have Throw Lightsaber just in case like this. However, there are no way for light side characters to recharge force power while the boss's attack was not so threating. As a result, with out decisive attack from either side, the stupid and anti-climax boss fight took almost one hour to me and this is only because I ended up with a light side force wielding character.

I'm not totally allergic to Star Wars and it could have been better if combat game play and quests are designed better. However, I found myself tired of playing Bioware games after this experience. Especially, I think I had enough of good/evil morality meter.

JDR13 June 23rd, 2009 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk (Post 1060955804)
I I ended up with playing a light side PC since I felt most of eeevul dark side options stupid. Also, playing as light side force wielder, I hit a glaring flaw in terms of gameplay. Each combat is extremely dull due to Force Wave. All of combats till the end were not challenging while the last fight is rather stupid than challenging.


That was one of the things that killed the game for me as well. The vast majority of non-boss fights in KotOR were extremely easy. After the first 1/4 of the game, I rarely found myself being challenged in the slightest.

Dusk June 23rd, 2009 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDR13 (Post 1060955806)
That was one of the things that killed the game for me as well. The vast majority of non-boss fights in KotOR were extremely easy. After the first 1/4 of the game, I rarely found myself being challenged in the slightest.

Yes, too much simplification in this area made old players run away, I guess.

I cannot speak for other people but, in my personal case, the experience made me realize that I had been playing Bioware games for RTS-style tactical combat gameplay and nostalgia of my early PnP experience. With the exact same reason may let me return to playing their games such as Dragon Age, though. It may not have PnP feel but the combat game play seems to be optimized for computer gaming. However, of course, I'm not going to jump to it on its release especially when its planned release date is somewhere near the expected release date of Windows 7.

Krzychu June 24th, 2009 12:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konjad (Post 1060955798)
Just tell us what did you smoke that time so we might enjoy this experience as well ;)

It's called immersion. ;) Better than any drug, I'm sure. :p

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk
I cannot remember most of the quests

Huh, well, I have to admit, I don't either! And I did complete the game two times and had a third playthrough that I didn't finish.

About difficulty: yeah, I guess it was too easy most of the time after you left Taris, but nowadays most games seem too easy, although I don't remember what it was like back when KotOR was released.

Still, I like KotOR, consolitis or not.

Dusk June 24th, 2009 12:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krzychu (Post 1060955874)
Still, I like KotOR, consolitis or not.

As you can see my description above, I don't think it's a bad game but, at the same time, I don't think it's so flawless as some people here seem to be claiming.

Krzychu June 24th, 2009 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk (Post 1060955876)
I don't think it's so flawless as some people here seem to be claiming.

Of course it isn't. Speaking for myself, I think I just liked the game enough so that when I hear "KotOR" I usually immediately think about the good stuff, and the flaws only emerge after thinking about it for a moment or two. Yeah, there are flaws, but they didn't detract from my overall experience. Basing on that, I'd still recommend it to others.


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