Dragon Age as a Spiritual Successor to Baldur's Gate
 

The subject suggests a long essay, and perhaps it warrants this, but I'm taking time that I was using to play Dragon Ago to write this. :) Maybe some other time.

I remembered that there were people that were angry about the whole "Dragon Age being a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate" claim. I've been playing it for about 30 hours now, I guess, with three different characters. I don't understand the anger. I think Dragon Age is probably better than Baldur's Gate! You don't have world freedom, but there is plenty to discover, decisions to make, intricate inter-party relationships, tons of items, a good story and real role-playing opportunities! So what's the problem? Tactical gameplay? I think there's enough in Dragon Age, and maybe too much in Baldur's Gate. In any case, I think Dragon Age is a pretty damn good spiritual successor.

And I'm playing this on Xbox 360, even.

I think the general consensus was that while Dragon Age was a good game, aside from graphics and other tech-centric stuff … everything Dragon Age does, Baldur's Gate 1&2 did better. Particularly all of the RPG mechanics.

DA is still head and shoulders better than almost any other RPG released in recent years, IMO.

If BG and DA should be compared I would go light on comparing the character system because a such comparison suggests that if a CRPG do not license an expensive pnp system they can't compete.

Beyond games that uses a licensed pnp system I do not think there are any cRPG's that manages to get near the pnp classics, and BG and NWN are the only titles that tried to implement the entire system. NWN is pushed as not only a game, but a computer roleplaying system and as a such it's probably the most advanced CRPG out there. KOTOR naturally had a very strong system but that was made out of the Star Wars d20 system. At that point they already had the core d20 thanks to NWN. Perhaps Fallout can be mentioned but it's only inspired by GURPS. Vampire: Bloodlines do not really use the WoD system as far as I concern.

Dragon Age is one of the heaviest systems I have seen when it comes to a CRPG exclusive.

This :)

….

Even the acting? Come on, you have to give credit where credit is due. The voice acting was topnotch.

Agreed with everything else except for the acting and of course the cut-scenes.

Well it's hard to compare things that didn't really exist in games back then, or were limited due to technology. Of course most things related to presentation, ie voice acting and cutscenes, are going to be better in a game from 2009, vs 1998-2001.

The one thing I'll give DA credit for is party interaction, it was definitely superior in that aspect.

DA is, without a doubt, one of the best RPGs I've played in recent years. BG2, however, is my all time favorite.

True and the parts that we're voiced were pretty good. Loved David Warner as Jon Irenicus, Quayle and of course Minsc. Minsc is always controversial, but I loved that character. Maybe had something to do with his obsession with rodents ;)

Although Edwin, Dynaheir and even Imoen were annoying. Though I wasn't annoyed as most people with Imoen. Don't know whether it was the voice actor or the lines, but they we're definitely on my least favorite list. I cringed every time they had something to say :)

I must say … I found no resemblence to Baldur's Gate at all. Everything in DA ist so much … different.

The only "succession" I see is the rules system. Which looks to me like a direct rip-off of (A)D&D.

To me, both are very different game - with only the mechanics being similar (to me, as someone who clearly isn't an insider to (A)D&D ).

Hence, I just don't see this claim fitting.

Yes, this. I was searching for a non-presentation thing that DA:O does better. The banter between party members is really well-done. The dog (that I lovingly named Barf) is awesome, too.

Anyway, I find myself wandering around, exploring, and running into cool stuff and enjoying every minute of it, just like Baldur's Gate. You constantly run into fun stuff, like the mad apostate in the Bracillian forest. The actual time spent with combat is very small compared to the overall playtime. And the choices you make in dialogue actually do mean something. It's like a puzzle you can solve every time.

That's better than in Baldur's Gate, too.

Yes, okay, the "exploration factor" is there, too.
But that's imho no thing special to Baldur's Gate.

I named the dog "Huond", by the way. ;)

I didn't think exploration was a strong point in DA. I found most of the maps to be quite limited, and linear compared to BG.

Sadly, that's how all of Bioware's games have been since KotOR, imo.

In my opinion, non-linear does not necessarily equal exploration. You don't need a sandbox to explore. :) Of course, DA:O is mostly hubs you travel through with a few zones, but those do give me the feeling of wonder you get when running into something unexpected such as in BG.

Oh well, I guess I just have to gush about how much fun I'm having. ;) I lose attention quickly, so I need all the motivation I can to keep playing.

On the contrary. Being different from AD&D is one of DA's strong point. BG2, and to a lesser extent BG, had good stories and great characters. The game system wasn't so good.

And that's from someone who has been playing D&D since 1976.

DA:O was "superior" in that the ruleset wasn't overly complex and it wasn't bogged down by 3.5/4e D&D. The lack of existing ruleset was also pretty useful in that it meant they had complete freedom in what they did, they weren't pandering to WotC's demands over how the series should be handled.

I'd easily take DA:O over BG but that's because I seriously struggle with the Infinity Engine games.

Interesting. My limited knowledge of (A)D&D showed me that the systems were very similar.

Anyway, I think I remember Bioware bringing out a pen & paper rule-book, too ?

I say the bioware "hub" model was established as early as BG2. BG1 was the only free roaming one.

Yes and no. They licensed the ruleset (or a version thereof) to, I think, a company called Green Ronin (Could have got the name wrong) and they produce the base game and its expansions.

There've not been many releases, but it does exist and it is out as we speak. I held it in my hands a few months back :)

I seem to be one of the few people that absolutely loved the exploration in BG. I know they got panned for the open world in some reviews, but I loved that I could just go pretty much anywhere from the beginning. Reminded me of the old Ultimas. That's probably the only thing I didn't like about BG2 is that they switched to that system where areas only open up after certain things occur.


I'll admit it, I had a crush on Imoen. Hell, I replaced her BG2 portrait with the BG1 portrait because I prefered the cute excited Imoen over the dark one! I was mildly disturbed though to find out she was my character's half-sister. Of course, if it didn't bother Luke Skywalker, why should it bother me?

:greengrin:

I'm with the BG1 and open world approach guys. Running around in the wilderness in BG1 was awesome and the stuff and quests you'd run into kept me going for many hours at a time. BG2 was slightly disappointing in that regard (and the starting dungeon was pretty boring and restrictive!).

I'm an explorer myself, I just love that, but I just wanted to say that you can explore within a lot of games. Even in Sacred 1, exploring was half of the fun to me ! :)

BG > DA:O

Then again, I'm a gameplay guy much more than a story guy. I won't deny that the story and presentation of Dragon Age was superb, if a bit cliché. Quite powerful considering it's a computer game.

I don't agree that not using a licensed PnP system means you can't compete, and in fact - quite the opposite.

What they SHOULD have done, would be to take what's great about D&D and implement it in their own system - free from the bonds of a PnP-system, that was never meant for computers.

Instead, they over-streamlined and over-simplified it, and character customization is what was hit the hardest. Something which happens to be one of my favorite aspects of RPG systems.

That said, it was probably easier to sell to the mainstream because of it.

What I find most surprising, replaying BG1 and BG2 - is that the updated scripts actually work better than anything in DA:O. I mean, with a relatively intricate and complex AI system - they STILL managed to make it less comfortable to control during combat - and with less characters to control.

With a properly configured party in BG1/BG2 - most combats are a breeze to control. I can't say the same for DA:O.

Bioware lost it in terms of creative power - and they're nothing but a shell of what they once were. They're creating games using established blueprints and they're chasing the gold before the design.

Sad, but I have no doubt of that.

I agree.

But it did put Bioware back "on track" for me.

While I really enjoyed Hordes Of The Underdark, Shadows Of Unrentide was a bit mediocre and NWN's OC was just horrible. NWN2 was better, although not great and MoTB was excellent (thanks Obsidian!)

Knights Of The Old Republic was great for the first play through and especially for a Star Wars fan but it took so many steps back from BG2. And IMO, KOTOR II was superior (thanks again Obsidian!).

Jade Empire. Further away from hardcore RPG than I imagined Bioware would ever go. But they did. :(

Mass Effect: didn't like it at first but trying it again a 2nd time it was a bit overrated but still a good game. And I'm appreciating the actiony combat system more - not so much the vehicle levels. What an abomination!

So Dragon Age is the first Bioware game to me in a looong time that actually feels like Baldur's Gate. Not so much the fantasy setting though that does help, but more the epic feel of it, the extensive character customization available and the decent difficulty level.

Do you need to have finished the OC to play HoTU or SoU? I've tried to slog through the OC a few times, but I just can't do it. I have the other two though (and am considering playing Darkness over Daggerford).

Did Bioware have anything to do with NWN2? I though they were not involved.

Oh, wow. That… that means so much, coming from you! ;) And it's already been established that I'm more a story guy than a gameplay guy. ;)

You can start HoTU or SoU anytime. I'd recommend giving SoU a try to see how it improved upon the OC - I never finished it but it was more due to starting something else and forgetting about it at the time. Wasn't terrible. But HoTU was definitely much better than both the OC and SoU.

Bioware was not involved with NWN2 - just pointing out how it was also better than the NWN OC.

NWN OC was the worst of every NWN official NWN story made really, including SoU, HotU, NWN2 and Mask of the Betrayer.

Enjoy the last great Bioware game out there - as it was started a good while before they went golddigging.

It really is a terrific game all things considered, and especially if you're a story guy.

The OC is incredibly bland in terms of story, but it does let you develop your characters to a high level - and it's not so bad as to be unbearable (to me, anyway). So, if you care about character persistency - it's pretty good for that.

I don't recall whether HotU expected you to have played OC in terms of character level - but that would be a good incentive to experience the OC.

Hmm, I don't know. I also find Mass Effect a great game, so who knows, although I do think Mass Effect 2 is a little disappointing. Maybe Mass Effect 3 will be killer again with a nice Citadel-like environment to explore. Side note: from what little I read about Dragon Age 2, they're gonna implement a Mass Effect-like dialogue wheel in that game!? WHAT!? Keep that stuff in Mass Effect, I liked it there!

As far as Dragon Age: Origins goes, I just did all the preparations in Redcliffe before that big battle kicked my ass. Really did feel like a little adventure game, talking to all the characters, going through the dialogue options and role-playing that. Just like the elves in the Bracilian forest, you get a nice little self-contained place with a distinct atmosphere that sticks with you. Very nicely done!

True, but Mass Effect came before Dragon Age! ;)

But it clearly demonstrated a "wrong" direction, as far as I'm concerned.

ME2 was rather bland as a game, but a pretty good story on par with Hollywood sci-fi. So, again, if you're into stories or movie-games - I think Bioware will serve you well, even in the future.

Agreed :)

I actually agree. The first game was that rare game that made me excited and for which I dropped everything and stayed at home all night for after first starting it up. The second one… well, it's okay, but I've already stopped playing it. :( I'll finish it before Mass Effect 3 comes around, of course.

Last night I survived the Redcliffe battle, but I feel like I cheated. :( There was no chance that I could defeat *all* of the baddies head-on, so I did the old pull-retreat tactic, even pulling them through the fire at the top to burn them and have my allies there finish them off.

I was able to have scores of them killed this way, even while the rest of my crew was already dead and I was at 10% health and without health potions. That feels wrong. :)

Once I got past the over-simplified RPG mechanics and the dreadfully stale loot system, I actually really enjoyed Mass Effect. Funny thing: I actually think it worked much better in terms of sci-fi atmosphere than the sequel. Not sure why, but it felt more interesting in most ways.

What difficulty are you playing at?

I was playing hard - and it felt just right for the most part. Don't recall any big trouble with that fight - except the obligatory "first attempt" as it was still early for me at that point, and I hadn't quite optimised my party.

But wait…..

Shouldn't you be busy playing Angry Birds or another of those miracle gadget-games? ;)

DA:O seems way too meaty for a veggie like you :p

Thanks. I have a ton of games to play and seemingly no time anymore, but one day maybe!


I REALLY need to play this game as I am definitely a story guy!

Mass Effect The First had a lot more charm to it, in my opinion. The combat system was also a bit more enjoyable, more RPG-y. I'm usually not one to scream "DUMBED DOWN FOR XSHIT KIDDIES!!11!" when they downplay RPG systems, but I actually like the more stat-based approach to shooting. Half-way through ME2, I'm also missing that big Citadel building very much. I loved it when I landed there…

Normal, like I always do in games. Of course, I'm playing it on Xbox 360, because PC is much too hardc0re for a Sexbox kiddie like me. I'm sure they, uhm, "streamlined" the combat and difficulty level for people of my brain level.

It's also different than PC in that (as far as I can tell) you cannot pause, give orders to everyone in your party and unpause. In fact, mostly I play with just my character. I haven't even checked out the other characters much in terms of what skills they possess and such. I probably should, though, if not for my own enjoyment, then for more control and chance of success on the battlefield. I should also check out those tactics slots, but I rarely do program the AI in games that allow it. Too much thinking hurts my head!

If I had micromanaged my party a bit more, and prepared better (too few healing pots at the start of battle), no doubt it would've been easier to manage. One of my party members was down before I was aware of it, so that I could have administered some healing.

I guess I'm playing it more like an action game, but that's really not the only way to play it on Xbox 360. I'm probably too dumb to think tactically and have to resort to button mashing like the rest of the kids. On that note, I hope Morrigan shows some skin when I bag her!!

I don't like Angry Birds, actually. I can play those casual games for a bit, but not for very long. I did buy a 16-bit SNES era inspired RPG called Ash yesterday that actually has decent dialogue in it! I'll probably play that for 20 minutes total on my iPad before I see something shiny in the corner of my eye.

Yeah, I very much agree with you about this. I eventually tired of the Citadel - but I found the various planets quite fascinating and truly atmospheric. It also had much more mystery and I found the music MUCH superior. Even the little random bases on planets had some fantastically eerie music, that gave me a very strong feeling of being alone in strange places.

I assume you're kidding, as I sure was ;)

I'm just messing with you, because I sense you're not REALLY that much of a gadget-gamer - you just don't have time for anything else.

See, we're much alike here ;)

I find it "cool" to play these games on my iPod - but when I have a modded Fallout 3 and Two Worlds 2 waiting on my PC, I just don't see the point ultimately.

My gaming on iPod Touch and iPad is dominated by games with some more 'meat'. from Puzzle Quest and Plants vs. Zombies through Command & Conquer and Tradewinds and Shining Force and Ash and so on. Return to Mysterious Island is there now. And so on.

I feel that while Angry Birds is very much on the 'high end' of games for $1, none of them are really for folks like us.

Yeah, I have several "meaty" games on my iPod as well. Like The Quest and Undercroft - both of which are excellent. But I still think of them as cute "blast from the past" games tickling my nostalgia, and they just can't provide what I thought they would. Gaming has evolved beyond them, and I doubt I'll actually get far unless I'm travelling or away from my PC.

Games like Space Miner and Galaxy on Fire 2 are also great throwbacks, and they use the platform in brilliant ways - but they don't constitute more than a mild distraction from what I consider "real" games.

I use my iPod for music, audiobooks, bed-browsing, and reading manuals - things like that. That's pretty much the only real use I think it has for someone like me.

But, to each his own.

This is creepy. I recognize all of that in ME (and not in ME2). Stop it, you're freaking me out. Next thing you know, I'll be talking doom about the increasing consumerism in the world and the downfall of the gaming industry.

Oh, I have time, but for some reason I'm never really interested in games (or much of anything, really) for long stretches of time. However, Dragon Age has been extremely fun every single time I've played it for the last couple of weeks (in play sessions of about 1-2 hours). I don't finish games all that much, but I feel that I could play Dragon Age a whole night through. There's just that sense of wonder and cosiness there. I wish I could have a party in some of those castle chambers…

However, I do have an irrational need to play every damn game out there, which results in huge stacks of unfinished games (Mass Effect 2, Fallout 3, Final Fantasy XIII, The Witcher, Tales of Monkey Island, Sam & Max Season 3, Alan Wake, Metal Gear Solid 4, Gothic 3, Risen, Magna Carta 2, Final Fantasy 8, Valkyrie Chronicles, Planescape: Torment, Alpha Protocol, Divinity II, The Pandora Directive (!) etc.--all of which I really want to continue at one point.)

I'm probably good for the next 1000 hours, or so. Oh, yeah. Need Fallout: New Vegas and Two Worlds II as well. Shit.

I said stop it!!

Me neither, now that I'm playing Dragon Age again. However, doing some battles in Puzzle Quest in bed or in the john is still very entertaining. ;) Nice little fact: I've played the most on my iPad. It's truly the best platform for this game and good example how a touch screen *can* add to the experience!

Hehe, you're not quite there yet I think…

Besides, I USED to talk doom about the industry, but these days I'm actually prophesizing the rebirth of gameplay evolution a few years down the line.

So, it's not all doom and gloom ;)

Hehe, I know what you mean. I do play more games for a long time than you, but I hardly ever finish them. I think it has to do with a feeling of some residual obligation from the past, when I used to religiously follow the gaming industry - where I'm somewhat more relaxed about it today. Yet, I still play all I can get my hands on - including cute gadget-games ;)

If only I had backlog-discipline. There are soooo many top games that I've yet to even begin, let alone finish.

Nevah! You're my clone!

I won't deny that iPod/iPad/Whatever brought something to the table. Smartphones in general did - but as for gaming, I find it to be more about distractions than the kind of in-depth gaming that I was almost born with.

That said, I've started development of a Windows 7 phone game with my brother. Another project we'll never finish ;)