Twitter from Gaider concerning BSN
 

I read a post from David Gaider concerning BSN

http://dgaider.tumblr.com/post/39544…c-environments

I am one of those who avoids those forums as much as possible. I really wonder what happened. In the early days, BG2 and NWN the forums had a much friendlier tone.

Since its a fenomena that happens in a lot of internet flora on a wide spectrum of subjects, is it unavoidable? (hopefully!)

C

I understand Gaider very well. BSN must be a horrible place to visit for a dev. I also stopped visiting there for similar reasons. There is just too much noise and too much stupidity. No point wasting valuable time in that cesspool.

Then again maybe bioware and EA should rethink a bit how they hype their upcoming games. If they were more honest about what kind of games they are making, I doubt they faced such a backslash after every game release. Adds and previews etc should promise less and be more honest about the game.

If you are not making complex and non linear rpg games, stop argueing and pretending that you do. And for the love of god, please stop trying to please every gamer type. If you wish to serve COD audience, make a COD game. If you wish to make rpg gamers happy, make a rpg game. :)

I find it hard to have any sympathy for him. If you come out and BS your fans enough of course they come to hate you, especially when he immediately calls any critic a troll, racist, homophobe, misogynist etc. It's a computer game not political dogma. Or should be, anyway!

The forums were friendly back then because the games were better and the people making them concentrated more on making games than trying to justify the latest round of pandering to the common denominator. They just made games and avoided the pretensiousness and didn't constantly insult their paying customers on the forums.

Bioware develops more and more games that are not for the old fans.

Plus there is a trend in internet forums in general to concentrate on negative things.
The willingness to call on others forum members or even attack them is rising.

Unfortunately I noticed this lately to a small degree here on the Watch, too.

Maybe it is the trend of increased self-presentation (Facebook, Blogs etc.) that increases everybodys Ego and tarnishes the ability to empathize/understand others and decreases the We/Us in forum user groups.

Join the Anti-Flame-Club, it is called NFG (Non-Flamers-Guild) here.
Listen to others, respect others, fight Flaming & Trolls, be as humorous, positive and intelligent as you can be -> Always look on the the bright side of Life!

You've been in the SWTOR forums lately ? Their PvP sub-forums are the worst I've ever seen.
But some say that WOW is even worse.
Interesting thought … Yes, this could be it - but I'd say it's an rise of the "I want everything, and I want it nao !" belief system + combined with an "please bring these things to me, because I'm the almighty customer" belief system.

What everyone acknowledges - and that in a *lot* of discussions ! - about SWTOR is the severe LACK of self-initiative. No-one searches for something - all they do is ask. And people believe that this is an symptome of a younger gaming generation. To be led, for example by quest markers.

Without quest markers, younger gamers just wouldn't buy the game anymore. They just wouldn't. They'd call it BEEEEP, "buggy" and they'd label it as "unplayable".

I played through SW:ToR recently - it was so easy for me that I played through many 2/4 player group missions alone for a challenge.

I nearly stopped playing because it was way too easy for me with too much respawning for my taste.

But I liked the story and some of the characters so I played the game up to maximum level, but mostly as a single player in PvE mode.

Increased marketing and increased "push" instead of interaction and therefore increased BS and outright lying. If they didn't pretend to be making awesome old school games that were just as good and anyone who disagreed is a homophobe then they'd not get a bunch of hate.

Developers today really seem to think people owe them positive acceptance of everything they do, but people want more than sex scenes to make a game.

It used to be you could tell a developer was talking about his own opinion. Now it's obvious they are towing the carefully constructed party line devised by their corporate overlords.

Developers today… is a generalization.

I would say:
Developers today that work in big organizations making games for the mass market…

Studios like Larian or Almost Human are a different breed of developers.

Well I am making a game so I don't count myself. Developers making a game with a decent budget today apply.

I hate the BSN. They banned me on there because I said I would wanted to have seen some very explicit rape in Mass Effect when it released.

I'd never want to post there. The name itself is so pretentious you can tell it wil be a pit, and obviously they are a lost cause. I don't just mean the dumb "stories" and the sex and catering to pedophiles, that's just amusing icing on the cake of their decline.

Ultimately they have not made something I'd consider a real RPG since BG II and that was pushing it in many respects, the combat in IE is so dodgy. Even so I might not mind a good or even mediocre consolized shooter with an interesting story but it's like something a polish toddler who is posessed by the devil would make.

Having such a thing in a game would lead to this game being banned almost everywhere. You - as a publisher - just wouldn't be able to sell it. 300.000 money currency thrown away for nothing.
The risk just would be too great.

And - you don't see what you want even in movies. Not at least in movies that are meant to become "Blockbusters".
You might see it in an movie that's seen by a few 10.000 people, perhaps, but nothing more.

And games ß Games are - as the word "game" implies - meant for play. Not for watching.

And playing - how would it be that a rape becomes play ?
That'd twist the word "play" and the word "game" beyond any repair.
Because "raping" as a substancial part of a "game" … playing with marbles is a game. Playing soccer is a game. Playing Commander Keen is a game. Playing with Lego is a game.

But "playing a rape" ? Because … even as a cutscene, it would STILL be a PART of the so-called "game" … Next step would be to allow children to "play torture", to allow children to "play rape", to allow children to "play hitman" - because it would most certainly NOT end at the "age barrier". It's too easy for kids of 10 years or even younger ! to get video games for any age for playing. A 10 year old kid watching an - as you put it - "very explicit rape" ? What kind of impact would have this on the kid ? On a boy - that it is "good" and accepted by society to rape someone ? Because kids are not yet able to distinguish between what's on a screen and what's in RL. I truly believed that C-3PO and R2-D2 were for realwhen I was 8 years old. As a girl - that it is "opkay" and "accepted in society" to be raped ? What kind of impact would have this on the girl ? The "eternal victim" ? De-humanization of the own sex ?

And don't you try to wriggle your way out of this "age problem" : It is still far too easy for kids to get games for any age. And, what's worse, they are in no position to judge whether a game is "age appropriate" for them or not. If you assume such a thing, then you are assuming it from the position of a person who has far much more matureness than a kid has - and because of this wrong perspective, this would be unlogical.

And games becoming "rape similations" - to put it rather satirically - games are nowadays becoming darker and darker.

And that's a trend, a fashion welcomes by a lot of people nowadays.

But I believe - personally - that the sheer number of peopleopenly welcoming this "age of dark & gritty" is still a minority - or at least not the majority. That's my personal opinion, I admit it.

And what happens if games become darker & darker ? Then the PC platform becomes an "havy metal games" platform - and only a minority - measured against the WHOLE MARKET - is going to view it. Heavy metal, Death Metal and so on are a huge part of the music business - but they are still not the majority, because the music business consists of orchestral music, of pop music, of blues, jazz, country music, hip hop etc. as well.

The result would be - and I personally believe that it is already going on right now ! - "flee" to the consoles. Thus draining the PC platform of customers, of diversity, of any intention to develop for a different folks than those who are clinging to the PC platform.

And the PC platform IS already degenerated. A few genres are dominating it. Any further loss of customers who are fleeing towards the consoles because of lack of diverity, lack of "non-grittyness" etc. would hurt the PC platform furthermore - leaving it to a "last resort of a few freaks". And then, the PC platform's reputation would go down. It has already suffered - at least here - for being nothing more than a "shooter platform", to put it rather extremely.

In the end, the PC platform will be a refugium of shooters, of rapers, of gangstas, of freaks.

And everyone else will stay clear of them.

And you seem to want it to grow this way, because your wish is something very definitively helping this "evolution" of the PC platform.

@Alrik - Never feed a Troll - Oldest rule at the Watch!

Alrik is wrong when it comes to diversity on PC. If the reason for saying it is WoW, think Alrik, wouldn't the same drugaddicts thing happen if WoW was console or phone game? It would!
There are so many different, odd and totally bizzare games and genres on PC. And only on PC. Indie scene was never stronger. Again, on PC.

Catering to pedophiles???

o_O

What games of theirs do that? I'm only asking because I'm intrigued now. Did I miss something in one of their games?

I haven't played dragon age but by now I have seen every cutscene, probably, due to people posting them to make fun of.

Most of it is just stupid and laughable but there's an "elf" who looks and talks like a 12 year old girl, and ACTS like one, who you can "romance". Something about it really made me cringe inside, it's that creepy.

To me in a way it's more disturbing to see them simulating real relationships than to just show their lame sex scenes. Someone who wants to simulate a relationship with a little girl, I am guessing is very very ill.

The police who bust pedophiles say that every one of them is heavy into star trek or star wars. I am guessing if they check their computers they will find a copy of Dragon Age to go along with it.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g5…g?t=1299250895

Her? She was a poorly-written character (but then again so were most other characters in DA2). She does look quite young until…

http://i54.tinypic.com/xde2dz.jpg

Creepy stuff.

I wouldn't say it's catering to pedophiles even as a joke. I think a lot of Bioware's writers and designers (last time I heard anyways) were female and they probably noticed all the fan art for the first game as well as the female fans (adolescent girls) on their forums. The writing for characters in DA2 was cringe-worthy at times and you could see how it catered to teens which was odd because the main plot was rather depressing and dark.

But Dragon Age 2 is the exception. Other Bioware games don't feature characters like Merrill who are young looking and romancable. DA2 was one of a kind. ME3 was something else (but I haven't played that so maybe it too suffers from cringe-worthy dialogue?)

All I know is that I never encountered any of the stuff from DA2 in DA: Origins or the first two Mass Effect games. It's like they've suddenly ditched all their old writers in favor of ones catering to teenage girls and the creepy adult male-fanbase…

Actually you may be onto something…

I mean, have a look at their forums. There's all "bronies" there.

Here i thought i was strange.

You guys…..

Their writing has never been all that good. There was no good writing in BG series either. They had some cool "ideas" in there here and there and lots to explore but the writing itself is very poorly done and nonsensical.

As far as who they cater to I don't imagine what anyone else could think. This is like those old girlfriend simulators that came out in the 90s. To me it's all quite creepy, but the one with merille "oh merille! Fingerprints from swinging on the chandeliers, you're such a child." made my eyes go white.

Their audience isn't teenagers at all it's primarily the creepiest 40+ year old weirdos, male and female. They have put all their efforts into pleasing people on the basis of pandering to their basest nature and ignored everyone else.

And that's why their old fans hate them, along with the fact they shout down anyone who complains about the direction things are going. And why they are a huge joke even to people who didn't used to be fans. And why they are going slowly but surely out of business.

edit: people who are rpg fans don't take this part seriously but the people who like these games so much don't like games like fallout and BG, they are there for the creepy elf porn and twilightesque romance. They are like hepler and just want to skip over the combat to get to the "good" stuff.

So I take it you don't really like any Bioware game? The first Baldur's Gate didn't really have much quality writing but I thought the plot was good enough and consistent. It was the sequel which expanded to more intricate dialogues with characters and your companions but let me digress. I thought NWN: Hordes of the Underdark and the first Dragon Age had some good writing. Mass Effect was good plot-wise but I could never get into the characters.

I'm not holding them up as the ultimate writers but compared to other developers and game stories, they have made some good ones.

I found the Gothic/Risen games to be nonsensical in some of its dialogues and The Witcher 1 IMO has broken dialogues. Bethesda games always have bad writing so in comparison to other titles, I would say Bioware have (or at least had) the better writers.

Not necessary. I feel you're trying to sum up up everyone who plays their new games into that creepy 40+ category but most of the people who played Mass Effect 3 were just regular gamers (well for the most part, you've got that creepy romance fan-base there too).

I brought Dragon Age 2 because I thought it would be a worthy successor to Origins but I and everyone else was wrong there. If fan reviews are good for Inquisition (aka it doesn't get slaughtered on Metacritic for being even more watered down) then I'll buy that.

There's a reason why both DA2 and ME3 had such enormous dislike even on Bioware's own forum. I may be wrong but I think Inquisition might be Bioware back-peddling hopefully and remembering their RPG fans.

The fact Bioware have stop health-regen and added in multiple races for Inquisition may suggest they're appealing to the fans of Origins but time will tell us.

I don't really play games for the story, most people into RPGs these days seem to, probably because that's the only thing modern RPG provides. As scifi fan I can't help but laugh at mass effect in particular but bioware has always had massive plotholes and nonsensical elaborate details that don't add anything to the story, pretty much like a soap opera.

People play games for completely different reasons. People are also more or less into a game on that basis. You can be a casual fan of game stories in RPG and a strong fan of DND for example, like me.

And you can rent a game and give it a halfassed go or register on their forums and make fan fic and kiss up to gaider and hepler all day. I think that most people who consider themselves RPG fans who do play newer bioware games fall into the first category.

I don't think there's that many hard core fans of DA but that's EXACTLY what the hardcore fans are. That's why they like it. They give just enough skim of swords and sorcery to capture most of the old school crowd and almost all of the story crowd, then they spend the time doing elaborate fan service to other groups to rope them in.

Frankly I don't think fat housewives are ever going to play a real RPG they have no interest in that, they love their twilight nonsense, though. So they get a new market. They get a new market for perverts and pedos too in the same way, a huge market that they'd never otherwise get a portion of.

If you ever sit down in a marketing meeting that's exactly how it works, trying to get new markets. How do we get women to use our baseball bats? How do we get black people to drink wine? Of course usually I don't think they are going after the pedo market, bioware is really an innovator in that respect.

That's why people barely drink beer any more in the USA it's all least denominator crap. That's why sci fi is such crap now, too, and why books in general have had a giant drop in sales for decades. It's a race to the bottom chasing short term gain at the expense of long term sustainability, but the people doing it don't care; if games market is ruined they just move on to something else like shoes or fast food.

It's part of why games are crap now (why almost everything is more crap than it used to be) but not the whole story.

If you're referring to SWTOR, DA2 and ME2 then yeah. In the case of Dragon Age: Origins though I just completed a seventh play-through a month ago. It's easier to find fans of Origins on other gaming forums asides from the official site and that's because it's a great game according to the majority.

I can only say I've ever really liked only Baldur's Gate, NWN and Dragon Age: Origins. Mass Effect 1 was meh. ME2 was good. ME3 was watered down. Jade Empire was horrible and I never even played the KoTOR series.

SWTOR is not the same as KOTOR, please don't mix these things up, although both have strong similarities in some points.

Especially considering that SWTOR is an MMO, meaning that there's respawn, LOTS of enemies, and MMO-related architecture & mechanisms …

Only I didn't.

I actually haven't played either SWTOR or KOTOR.

My opinion on SWTOR however comes from what others have said. People don't hold it high up there with what Bioware had produced in the past.

swotor doesn't seem all that bad from the standpoint of comparing it to kotor, though I didn't play it. Only thing to seem really bad is the graphics which seem to be worse than even kotor which was like 10 years before swotor.

Ultimately it was a silly delusional project that bankrupted bioware, and really was the end of bioware for all intents and purposes. It would have been more merciful if they just stopped making games after EA bought them, but at least the drs can retire with some cold cash.

Silly me I had hoped EA would buy the DnD license and finally make BG III. Nope! They'd rather make a halfassed off brand psuedo RPG instead, and wizards of the coast would rather make NO games than get only a million per game for their license, which they have done nothing good with since gygax was driven off.

I like the graphics of SWTOR very much, I must say. I'm rather used to low-end graphics (always was), but SWTOR kind of blew me away.

I must also say that I didn't play any shooters in the last 10 years (apart from Star Wars Battlefront I / II), which usually do have the best "state of the art" graphics available.

The only thing that *really* goes on my nevers nowadays is the hack & slay nature of SWTOR.

The "class stories" are an refreshing holiday from that, so to say. ;)

I thought ME1 was a lot better than ME2, but opinions vary on both games. I wouldn't call Jade Empire horrible, but it's definitely one of their weaker titles overall. KotOR is overrated imo.

I like DA:O quite a bit, but I couldn't imagine playing through it seven times. It's not that good. I couldn't even make it through the first chapter of DA:2.

I think grind is unavoidable with MMOs. Maybe I will give it a shot some day, actually doesn't sound half bad to me.

I just hope that grinding will end when the market is filled so much that companies will see the need for diversification to actually attract new customers - by introducing different mechnics to MMOs.

A friend of mine still plays a MUD from time to time nowadays.