I have been trying to find information on the QuestPack for G3 but did not find much. Is it new content made by fans, or recovered content from the game itself? Does it include voice overs from the original or made by fans :-/?

It's fan made Content. There are voice-overs but only in German, afaik. However, English subtitles are available. It requires the current community patch as well.

Many thanks, I will have a look at it.

What are you disagreeing with? I was just trying to lead folks to see that the term "action rpg" has been so diluted by the gaming press to be pretty much meaningless.

I don't consider the term "action-RPG" to be derogatory. If I did, I certainly wouldn't use it to describe a game that I consider to be one of the greatest crpgs ever made.

Apparently I'm disagreeing with JDR13 ;). Your hilarious rebuke of Dart threw me off.

The point is action is a major part of the enjoyment of Gothic 2+NOTR. Learning the fighting is a major element in the game. Put crap fights in the same game and it will be a half interesting RPG. So I have the same point of view.

But I name action RPG the real time Rpg. I don't use real time RPG because nobody do. Diablo like games are Diablo like games. I think that some want use RPG for a game like Gothic and Action RPG for some other games, I imagine ME2 for example, because they think RPG need follow a strict definition that they know.

Well RPG tag in computer games has been used a long time before those younger was born and I don't see why change it because some younger believe to know the "truth".

The RPG genre as such evolved, too. Let's take a look at Lands Of Lore I or Eye Of THe Beholder, for example - that's pure "dungeon crawling" at its best. Even the Realms Of Arcania games have that.

And inside of a dungeon, there's only one thing : "fight forwards !".
No social interactions, no crafting, no quests, even. Yes, not even quests as such.

I don't know who invented the "Quest" as something that's been scribbled down in an journal, but at least there did exist things one had to keep in mind as things to do - and to scribble them down on the own sheet of paper, bevore the computer. Now, the Journal is within/inside of the computer, and modern games keep track of Quests on their own.
Same with Maps.

So, from this perspective, these "Action-RPGs" are nothing but "open world dungeon crawlers", where the open world replaced the dungeon - and in some cases it's still a dungeon.

But - what differs games like Titan Quest, Sacred etc. from Lands Of Lore I and Eye Of The Beholder is the fact that fighting takes place in an completely different style.
Simply, because the view is different now. You don't look into a dungeon like in Dungeon Master - front view - but you look at an open area or into a dungeon from above - and that makes the fighting style a LOT different !

Plus, the Multiplayer part. Dungeon Crawling as an multiplayer game ? Not a good idea. And at that time, no-one from the "multiplayer crowd" even wishd so. Simply because there wasn't any distinction between the view of the first person in a group (the group leader) and the second, third or fourth.

And because the fighting style was changed with the view onto the battlefield, it could become much faster then, too. Because you had an much better overview, could evade spells and arrows, could even use the terrain to your advantage ("kiting").

Action = adrenaline, imho, which means on the other hand that "slow RPGs" = no adrenaline. They are for people who like it slow, who don't like combat that much, but might prefer rather puzzles and stuff that needs your full concentration. Rather that than the ability to quickly move the mouse (and earn money with that through E-Sports).

Remember that puzzle in Drakensang 2 where you had to free the "mermaid" ? I wonder how much time the bestest and fastest E-Sports teams would need to solve that … Each member of them individually …

I definitely consider Gothic to be an "action RPG". The skill of the player means so much, far more than in most cRPGs.

As for Diablo clones? I just consider them "hack'n slash" and that's about it. They're not really RPGs to me as there are no meaningful choices.

Anyway, I am actually playing Gothic 2 NotR and Gothic 2 vanilla at the same time right now, so it'll take a while to finish. The difference is quite big to be honest. I find it very interesting, especially since I've forgotten so much of how things were handled in G2 vanilla.

If the "action" skill of the player required is what makes it an action RPG - then we need to call games like Dragon Age tactical RPGs.

But we don't do that - because tactical combat is not really the defining feature of the game as a whole - it's just part of it. We could also call it a story RPG because story is a huge aspect of it.

To me - an action RPG needs to have action as the dominant factor, or it should be shared with other dominant factors. That's why Diablo qualifies for me.

Obviously, that's just my opinion.

I'll stick with my definition. Action RPGs are diablo clones. The industry movement to put the word "action" into all of their RPG descriptions isn't relevant.

Diablo clones are "Diablo clones". Why try to add a second label to something that already has one?

Because that's where the definition of "action RPG" originally came from until it was later misused and muddied by the gaming press.

"Diablo clone" is used by the majority to describe RPGs that are top-down, mouse-driven, and combat-heavy. "Action-RPG" is a much broader term that was never limited to just that type of game.

My memory serves me differently. I never had seen the term "action RPG" applied to anything other than a Diablo clone until the Gothics, and more often since the release of Arcania.

Until the Gothics? You mean a series that started 13 years ago? :)

Yes, your memory certainly does seem to serve you differently than that of the majority. I can name a lot of games that were considered action-RPGs over the years, and they weren't all top-down, mouse driven titles.

I ma sure you speak for the majority since you are always so disagreeable with everyone. Also, you do realize that Diablo was in 1999 and Gothic was in 2002? Or have those brain cells died? ;)

I'm not speaking for anyone, just pointing out something that's obvious to most. But but all means, please continue to claim that the term action-RPG was never used to describe anything but Diablo clones.

And Gothic was actually released in 2001, although I fail to see the relevance.

Never? OK, I'd like a reference to an action RPG that predates Gothic that wasn't a diablo clone.

When exactly did you start playing RPGs? It's just an honest question, because I get the feeling that maybe you haven't been playing as long as some of the rest of us. I also thought I recall you saying that one of the Infinity Engine games was the first RPG you played.

I've played a lot of the games mentioned here including Dungeons of Daggorath back in the early 80s. Although I don't recall if the term action-RPG was used that far back, it certainly was at times in the mid to late 90s. Prior to then, I'd say "hack and slash" was the more popular term.