The Witcher - Impressions @ DLA
 

Steel_Wind from the NWN/2 content group DLA has posted some lengthy impressions of The Witcher from around the halfwat point. To say they are impressed would be an understatement:
More information.

To me The Witcher is way better then any Bioware RPG ever made (I'm not sure about Mass Effect though since I haven't played it) and is better in story then a majority of games ever created. The atmosphere is also the best I have seen out of every RPG I have ever played and just behind that is the Fallout games.

I have to agree with him with the praise on art direction and enviromental
design.

It looked great in the prerelease screens and is in thruth stellar when actually
playing the game (might I suggest OTS as the best choise ?)… Better than the
Gothics in that aspect, which were my benchmark for this kind of lived in ,
breathing sort of world design too… Funny thing I remember Gamestar, one
of the first, (very early) reviews to criticize heavily the game's atmosphere…

Although its too early to be adamant I'll have to say I definetely like this one
more than KOTOR since it is mentioned. I'll have to say though, that KOTOR
most certainly had a more even (high)quality on its writing.

I get the impression a lot of things are missed in translation with the witcher
(idioms and phrases not readily translatable in english and a quirky polish flavour
in the dialogue that is equally difficult to transmit ?), still nothing jarring or really
detracting from the game overall, just a few awkward moments among several
very good ones.

I stopped reading after that statement because he instantly lost all credibility at that point.

To me, Gothic is still the benchmark as far as game world goes. Not that it hasn't been surpassed since then (by Gothic 2, among others), but it was released six years ago. That is quite a long time in game development, and the atmosphere in the game is still among the best.

Since BG2 was developed by Black Isle, I might lean towards saying that KotOR is BioWares best game. However, claiming KotOR is the best ever (surpassing Fallout, BG, etc) is an odd statement. I doubt many serious RPG fans feel that way.

Huh? BG2 was published by Black Isle and developed by Bioware.

Either way, this guy claiming(iho) that KOTOR is the best RPG ever made makes me skeptical of how long he's been playing RPG's.

Easily. I liked KOTOR as well, and in some very abstract ways the two games have some similarities even, but Witcher has way, way more depth, breadth, subtlety, and all that commotion.

Really? I always thought PS:T and BG2 were developed by the same company. Oh well, live and learn I suppose. Guess it was a bit much to believe that a single company developed so much RPG history.

The atmosphere and world design of the G series were groundbreaking
imo, and still very rarely surpassed.

I'll say that the limitations of the Aurora engine certainly detract a bit
from the experience making it a close thing, but the Witcher's attention
to detail, architecture, scale, and landscape (not to mention little touches
like the passive fauna etc), pushes it ahead for me (despite limited map
size and movement freedom i.e)

I agree, for me the Gothic games are still the unchallenged king regarding atmosphere in game worlds (although, back in '92 or whenever it was, I was pretty damned impressed by the world of Ultima7:SI as well - and still am).

The Witcher is really, really nice - but (and I'll have to admit I'm maybe not far enough into the game to pass final judgement) it annoys me how linear the paths through the maps are. For example, in the outskirts of Vizima I'm forced to always follow long winding roads to get from A to B when I could just have crossed a field in a game like Gothic!

In the Wither there seems to be no real reason why I couldn't do the same from a technical point of view, but they've put up fences and disallowed jumping.. I hope later areas opens up more.

I have waited for some reviews to appear before buying it - and I have to say that I am VERY impressed by the witcher so far. Special mention goes to the opening cinematics and the start of the story - can't remember I have seen it done better before (and I remember back to the days when the PC was a 286 at its best *g*)

I really hate it when they limit an action rpg like that, it reminds me of how I felt when I played Fable: The Lost Chapters, the maps were beautiful but you couldn't go everywhere.

Just for the record, the opening move has been made by Tomasz Baginski who received an Oscar nomination in 2003 for his 3d animation 'The Cathedral'.

While I broadly agree with the sentiment, I simply wouldn't call it an action/RPG. It is at least as dialogue/quest based as BioWare's standard stuff, like BG2 or KotOR. When I think of it as a traditional RPG, the movement limitations bother me less than when thinking of it as a Gothic-like game.

Agree--I'm quite fond of the hack n slash and I don't see this game having much of that feel. I would call this an rpg with occasional action elements ;)

I don't know when it started catching that arpg label, but I would agree with this reviewer and just call it a cRPG. It's got the story, the dialogues, the npcs and the momentum comparable to games from Bioware or Black Isle. It's especially nice to be able to switch camera modes on the fly from isometric to over the shoulder, and to move with the mouse for character interaction and scoping things out, then WASD for combat and exploration. Not being able to run across the field is occasionally annoying, but the sensation of being involved with the characters and the plot does a pretty good job of distracting you. IMHO, of course. :)

This actually opens (possibly) a discussion on the sub-genre's of RPG's. On first blush, I think the following:

aRPG - focus is on lots of fighting (like every few minutes at most), lotsa loot and leveling. Very light on story and dialogue. Usually constrained in some way when it comes to exploration. Examples: DL, D2, HG:L, 1/2 of Sacred, 1/3 of Gothic, 1/2 of TW

Sandbox - focus is on exploration. There's at least a respectable story element, but it doesn't constrain the player at all. Combat is more a function of exploring. Loot tends to be somewhat incidental to the experience. Examples: TES, 1/2 of Sacred, 1/3 of Gothic, 1/2 TW

Traditional: focus is the story to the point of feeling "on rails" to some extent. Exploring, leveling, combat and loot all serve, for the most part, to move the story forward. Examples: a ton. Anything Black Isle did or Bioware's done, ToEE, 1/3 of Gothic, etc.

RTS Hybrid: have to mention this, as I think it's a possible growth area for RPG's. However, it may be a sub-sub-genre as the elements of story, exploration, combat, leveling and loot can all vary independently within any given RTS Hybrid. Examples: Spellforce series, Dragonshard (arguably), Mount & Blade.

As you can see, Sacred, Two Worlds and Gothic are special in that they straddle multiple sub-genre's.

What do you guys and gals think? Of special interest to me: where would you put The Witcher in this breakout?

There's something to that division, although as any division it's only of limited usefulness.

Here's how I'd place The Witcher:

* Loot: not really. The focus is on developing your character, not equipping him. At least I've ended up selling almost everything in order to afford (a) books, (b) potion bases, and (c) to pay the blacksmith to upgrade my sword.
* Fighting: less of a focus than Jade Empire, perhaps about as much as Gothic 2. I also find the fighting lots of fun -- it's definitely a major element.
* Exploration: Story constrains exploration much more than TES, somewhat more than Gothic 2, and a lot less than NWN.
* Story: very, very central to the experience. You spend more of your time in dialog than in fighting.

IOW, I'd say that like Gothic, The Witcher straddles multiple sub-genres: traditional, action, and sandbox. If I had to break it down crudely, I'd say 1/5 sandbox, 2/5 action, and 2/5 story.

chamr wrote:
I'm only a short way into the game, but atm I'd have to agree it straddles.:)

It's got a good mix of story and action, but the frenetic ever-spawning monster rush is absent and loot is a minor element. The traditional "on rails" rpg is obviously it's inspiration, but it's years down the road since the heyday of those games, and the Witcher incorporates a lot of more modern elements to achieve the same ends. It feels familiar, but not because it's generic, but because the devs have obviously played and loved those games, and then gone on with ideas of their own and made them work.

You really can feel this in the combat, where you have an amalgam of styles that gives the same feeling of depth as an old style biowarean mage battle, or some of the matchups in a combat based dungeoner like ToEE where strategy, planning and shrewd usage of enhancements and skills are extremely important, but the game gets you that depth using influences from modern action oriented combat as well. Somehow it still has the feel of tb or rtwp while actually being nothing of the kind, and capitalizes on visuals in way that the old games could never really do with the tech of their day, giving it a great deal of immediacy. It isn't flawless, though, and it doesn't always work the way you think it should.

But you need to play it yourself, chamr and give us your impressions. :)


@Rendelius: the intro cinematics do rock--better than fifteen minutes of most actual films.

Believe me, I will! :) I just came to the sad conclusion that I can not justify roughly $40 for a damn map, so I'm going with the GoGammer UK version soon. Just want to play the post 1.6 TW a bit more to feel I've got my money's worth first. Plus I've been on a DoW: DC binge somewhat since I found out about the upcoming expansion.

On a side note, your new avatar disturbs me greatly. :( I found the previous one reassuring in an odd, forum sort of way. The new one is quite the opposite. From the Witcher, right?

(j/k about being "disturbed", of course) :biggrin:

Yes. Just think of her as one of the cards that collects you. :)

Perhaps that is a bit disturbing…

When you get to the second chapter it becomes less on rails and more open since you have a large section of the city to explore and there is multiple ways to get to the same place. I am loving this game more and more as I play it and for people who are on the first chapter you should be careful of the end because there is a hard boss fight coming up. You have to use strategy to beat it and you can't just go up and kill it just by hitting it over and over with the same style.

You're *that* far into the game already? ;)

Funningly, the box I've seen here has written "role playing game" underneath the title "The Witcher" …

Who said otherwise?

The UK limited edition (available in GAME) I bought contains:

• A world map and local map printed on alternate sides of an A3 (or larger?) sheet of rather flimsy stock.
• An excellent 200+ page A4 artbook of first class printing quality and stock except for the flimsy cover.
• A "making of" DVD (I haven't watched it yet, can't comment).
• Soundtrack CD, 29 tracks I think.
• The standard game case and manual.

As far as I know this is the most feature rich English language edition currently available. Granted I got it because it was the only edition available in the store at the time, and I don't normally bother with CE/LE versions, but this one was well worth it.

The point is not the "otherwise", but rather that they seem to feel obliged to stress this …

They could've left these words alone. They are not needed, imho.

Problem for me (this is all subjective, of course) is that the map is the most exciting thing, and the others are of only moderate interest. Now, if the Euro LE had a couple more things from the Polish CE (e.g. the Bestiary and an english translation of one of Sap's books), it would probably be enough for me to self-rationalize the extra $40 to get it from the UK into my hot little hands here in the US.

Which words are you refering to? Role-playing game? Why are they not needed? I'm not saying they are needed, but what's the big deal?

I assume "role-playing game" is on the box to distinguish it from other products, existing or planned, in The Witcher brand line.

Probably a lot longer than you pal….
 

CRPGs? First was back in early 1982, Sir-Tech's Wizardy 1: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord for the Apple ][.

RPGs? 1976, Original D&D.

Your opinion may differ form mine. I somehow doubt, however, that lack of experience in the genre is a failing you can point to.

I stand by my comments: I consider KotOR1 to be the best CRPG of all time. You may have a different view or prefer different games; but the joy from the Revan plot twist remains my high water mark for sheer glee while playing a CRPG.

Could I have seen it coming if I was looking for it? Sure. But I wasn't and I didn't. I was chest deep in developing for the Aurora engine at the time and also had the privilege of playing with BioWare's Odyssey's toolset they used for KotOR under NDA. So most of my active attention I was soaking up the tech behind the game and just going with the story at the time.

The plot twist had me laughing so loud I woke up my wife at 2:30 am. I loved it then - and I do now, too.

YMMV.

Welcome to our forums!

I am with JDR13 on this one. KotOR1 was indeed a very good RPG, and I replayed it several times. In fact, when I purchased KotOR2, I uninstalled it several days later (after beating it twice) to install KotOR1 again!

But you have to admit that as good as it was, it had some serious flaws. Combat was too easy and the DnD rules took out a lot of the Starwars feel (I recall the melee fighting, I could as well be yielding a greatsword instead of a lightsaber!) It felt very linear, and choices you made only resulted in minor differences storywise. The areas felt very constrained too. And the interface very consolish. The moral choices were quite foolish at times, kill the beggar to earn dark points, or give him money for light points! No grey areas either.

Now these are things that The Witcher (and other RPGs) handle in a far better manner. I share your enthousiasm though, KotOR was sure one of the most fun games I ever played.

…and that's an understatement.

I'm not as enthusiastic one any of the points but everyone has a different personal experience, obviously. I didn't like the twist at all and the mechanics and exploration were all truncated. I do appreciate, however, that BioWare put more effort into stat-driven dialogue and alternative solutions than their earlier work, even the highly lauded BG2.

Nice to have you drop by, Steel_Wind.

Hey - I didn't say that KotOR 1 for the PC was the best. I referred to the game as primarily an XBox title - and the Xbox version is the one that played best.

The controls on KotOR 1 PC didn't "feel consolish" - they WERE "consolish"! The title is not primarily a PC Game. Few ports play at their best as a port - and KotOR1 is no different.

IMO, you need to assess a game as it was intended to be played. With KotOR1, the resolution the game was intended to support on the original Xbox, and at the time the original Xbox title was released, and playing the game on a Bat Wing controller in front of the TV. That's the game that got trailers on TV, in the movie theaters and which won Game of the Year. Judging it by a port 18 months later is doing it a disservice.

You need to judge a game as it was intended to be played at the time it was released.

FWIW, the designers at Bio who worked on the game far prefer it on the Xbox.

None of that has much to do with The Witcher though. :)

For the record, I completed the game over this past weekend. It has some rough edges which show up as the game progresses. Act IV and inventory management being the biggies - but it's still a 4.5/5 game and a must buy for any CRPG fan.

The updated post - now a review - is on our site. This is now a "review" as opposed to a "First Impression". I hate authors who hold out an article as a "review" based only on a partial play through - I find it to be deceptive and misleading.

.Robert

Can't really argue with that, I'm a PC-only gamer. Although I did get the impression that you meant that KotOR was the best RPG title in all platforms. Incidentally, KotOR's highlight for me was not the (predictable) twist, but the temple summit - I never expected to find Bastilla there .

Nice to see a reviewer giving a score only after having completed the game. I just read it, overall a very good review focusing on both the positives and the negatives - although I would have prefered you had written more about the choices and consequences (it's the game's motto after all) and also the living world, NPC schedules etc. I was particularly pleased your team is interested in modding the Witcher, Wyvern is one of my favourite NWN mods (far better than the OC IMO) and perhaps you will be able to correct some of those inventory issues you mention - if the devs don't that is.

Keep up the good work.

While I feel BG2 is the best cRPG ever, I have to agree with Steel_Wind here that the Revan twist is exceptionally good. It really is one of my best gaming moments, I was actually chuckling during the confrontation, thinking "Oh my! Oh my! Woho! Oh my!".

It was a like-a-child-on-christmas-eve experience.

Also, let's not forget the fact that it's Star Wars, people. That alone gives it an edge - The Jedi have a "coolness factor" of 11 out of 10. Swinging a lightsaber, to me, is cooler than a sword any day.

I have to admit I place KotOR relatively high on my list, there's just something about Star Wars when it's done right (too often it's not). KotOR (maybe 2 as well) is probably the only Star Wars game I feel have a good enough story and background to truly exist in the SW universe. More often than not there's some silly element that makes me go: "Eh? George Lucas would never write that, it doesn't fit at all!".

KotOR suffers a bit from the Aurora 2,5D issue though, much like The Witcher. Not having a true Z-axis means you have to run around fences and have cut off zones, instead of actual jumping and free movement everywhere. Invisible walls is a big issue.

My dream RPG is probably Gothic gone KotOR, or KotOR gone Gothic (depending on perspective). A rock solid Star Wars RPG with Gothic atmosphere and exploration. I've been dreaming about such an RPG for years.

I'd say KotOR is probably the 6th game on my top ten RPG list, with BG1-2, Gothic 1-2 and PS:T above it. All these games have exceptional replay value, fun combat and a well written story. If KotOR had been built like Gothic 2: NotR, it would probably be my all-time favourite, or at least be in the race with BG2 for the top title.

One word: metachlorians.

You have good taste my friend. :) I would say it's a toss-up between the BG and Gothic series for me. BG 1&2 are, without a doubt, the best party based crpg's I've ever played imo, while the Gothics are probably my favorite games of all time.


The funny thing is, I'm a huge Star Wars fan, but I just wasn't blown away by KotOR. Don't get me wrong, I though it was fun and it was definitely a very high quality production, but it wasn't one of those games that had me thinking about it all the time when I wasn't playing it. I've never replayed it since, and I never played, or desired to play, KotOR 2.